PETA has named 5 Orca Whales as Plantiffs in a lawsuit... .. Yes, they really are THAT stupid

[SonikkuForever]

I was reading a book about this type of crap that people like the ones at PETA pull a couple of months ago and there is a very large distinction between animal rights and animal welfare.

Animal welfare is what people think of when they hear the term "animal rights" being thrown around - basically it's humane treatment to animals (SPCA, Humane society, zoos, ect.)

Animal rights however, is another ball game. Animal rights are equating the rights of an animal to yours, basically no animals in zoos, used for consumption (not only meat, but for other by-products created by or from animals - honey, eggs and milk) and liberated from being pets to name a few examples...

I am for animal welfare, but not for animal rights.

Exactly. PETA is actually hurting their case everytime they try some new radical PR stunt, because everytime anyone mentions something about animal welfare, everyone else goes "oh look, another PETA nut" and turns the other way.

My opinions on the matter:

- I don't have a problem with using animals to help humanity, be it for food, medicine, etc, but you have to respect the animals involved, treat them as humanely as possible, and in the case of research, only use them when there are no other alternatives.

-Most accredited zoos are fine because the animals there were born in captivity, get very good care, and help participate in breeding programs to help their wild counterparts. Zoos are literally the last stronghold for several endangered species. Still, I'm not a fan when zoos breed mutated, but popular animals, like white tigers, just to get people in the door. White tigers in particular tend to be quite sickly and aren't even naturally found in the wild. And roadside zoos are usually quite horrific when it comes to the treatment of their animals.

- Circuses are kind of a grey area. I'm fine with domesticated species like dogs, but big cats and elephants are sometimes subjected to brutal training methods and tend to die in transit between towns. Ringling Bros. has a very bad track record with this.

-I can't stand factory farming. These farms need a major overhaul, for the welfare and safety of the animals, the underpaid migrant workers who work in their typically filthy conditions, and the safety of people like you and me who might consume the meat. They pollute the environment like crazy, too. Still, kind of a sticky spot because it is an efficient way to feed large numbers of people. There's definitely a problem, but how to fix it?

[Solly]

Well... okay I'll play devil's advocate for a second - why not? If being less intelligent and less aware is justification for treating them with less emotion, care, respect, etc... then how do they differ from a mentally-challenged person? I hope I'm not being too ridiculous here in combining touchy-subjects but... No, seriously. Remember I really respect animals so this is in no way a dig at mentally-challenged people.

I really don't even know how to respond to something like this. Animals may have intelligence and emotion, but the point is that most of them don't have our intelligence and our emotion, or our capacity for these things. No offense, or anything, but if you aren't seeing the difference then I really can't say anything because we just differ so much on principle.

To be honest I'm not quite sure what you're implying from this (I don't mean that in a mean way, just in an honest to god, I'm not sure way!). I get the impression you want me to answer chimp, but ironically I'd actually feel worse about the rat. I have pet rats so I sympathise with them more lol. I actually find Chimps a little unappealing. They're too human-like, I find it a little unnerving somehow (though fascinating all the same). I realise you probably didn't mean me to answer it so literally but may as well.

Wait! I get your point now. You're suggesting the chimp would be more traumatic because it's closer to us in biology. Well in that sense I should add that I still feel both would feel enough pain and fear for neither to be more "okay" than the other. I would find it just as upsetting to watch a chimp be killed as I would a rat (though would ultimately probably be more traumatised by the rat because I have friends who are rats).

Er, the point was more or less that I expected you to feel more sorry for a chimp, not because it's human-like, but because it's more intelligent and aware. I didn't know you had a pet rat, so that comparison was a bit of a flop. I just picked an animal that we all know is smart vs. an animal most people consider a pest.

But I had a pet mouse too, once upon a time. I'd still rather see a mouse get killed than a chimp- not that I'd like to witness either.

You love animals - but you love humans more. And that's fine. I, personally love both equally. If I can love a pet like I can a human family member, then I feel all animals have the potential to be loved like that. Granted not all species are capable of a mutual relationship like most pets have I'm sure, but still.

I've treated pets like family too- really, but I can't really extend that kind of love to all animals, so I guess that's just another thing we're going to have to agree to disagree on.

It is pretty easy... if we didn't eat meat, we wouldn't have to do any of it. That's kind of jumping a whole load of steps further than what we were arguing though (which was largely a "meeting meat-eaters halfway by just arguing for animal welfare" ordeal) so I'm not actually raising that as an arguement to be refuted against of course, I'm just sayin'.

I wasn't talking about not eating meat. That's not an easy thing to do either. On an individual scale it might be, but to end animal suffering is another story.

[JezMM]

I really don't even know how to respond to something like this. Animals may have intelligence and emotion, but the point is that most of them don't have our intelligence and our emotion, or our capacity for these things. No offense, or anything, but if you aren't seeing the difference then I really can't say anything because we just differ so much on principle.

No offense taken, as much of a convo killer as it is, I have to agree that we've reached the limit of mutual understanding here yeah. I just simply don't compare animals to humans in that same way, and consider their non-human intelligence and emotion just as valid as ours.

Er, the point was more or less that I expected you to feel more sorry for a chimp, not because it's human-like, but because it's more intelligent and aware. I didn't know you had a pet rat, so that comparison was a bit of a flop. I just picked an animal that we all know is smart vs. an animal most people consider a pest.

Lol yeah I understand the sentiment. Unfortunately rats are highly intelligent of course as we know from science (hell, there's a reason they are, alas, one of the most popular choices for animal testing, they're startling similar to us in a lot of regards). Either way, to try and rework the question into more compatible examples for me, yes I can admit a chimp or a rat being killed would be more distressing than say, a bug being killed. I still have an unfortunate ability to sympathise with the bug though, even if just for a second, thinking "damn life was unfair on you, sorry little guy 8C".

I've treated pets like family too- really, but I can't really extend that kind of love to all animals, so I guess that's just another thing we're going to have to agree to disagree on.

Well, as said it's only me giving consideration to my CAPACITY for love. Ironically I find most farm animals pretty unappealing and find it hard to project these human feelings on them, I just literally work on the basis of possibility, better safe than sorry, etc etc.

I wasn't talking about not eating meat. That's not an easy thing to do either. On an individual scale it might be, but to end animal suffering is another story.

I know, I know. It's only easy on the technical basis. It's strange how being veggie only a couple of years already makes it hard for me to understand how people can't just... not eat meat. Remember that time you ate that food that wasn't meat? You were doing it right there! That wasn't hard! Etc etc. I don't mean that seriously of course. XP Or do I?

[turbojet]

I hate to bring up a much maligned topic but...

The judge says that these people are fucking crazy.

Bitch step off.

[Axl.EXE]

I hate to bring up a much maligned topic but...

The judge says that these people are fucking crazy.

Smart judge. Letting this case go anywhere would just make him look as nuts as PETA.

[JezMM]

Yeah, not surprised. I almost thought that was kind of a given and no-one had posted the result of the whole thing because it had already quietly happened and people had moved on, lol.

[SuperStingray]

I hate to bring up a much maligned topic but...

The judge says that these people are fucking crazy.

Bitch step off.