Sonic relies too much on the past

[ArtFenix]

Hi guys^^. This is the topic I wanted to create a long time ago. It's not based on the "themes of the adventure era" topic but has some similar intersecting things.

Now, time to explain myself.

There's something that has been bothering me for quite a while. I tend to notice that recent Sonic games rely too much on the past. I'm not quite talking about Sonic 4 and all that rehashed stuff, but about other aspects of the franchise, the first of them being

- The STAGES

Pretty much all the iconic locations or those that have some role in the overall story are either from Classic games (Green Hill, Ice Cap, Angel Island, Hidden Palace, Sky Sanctuary, Death Egg) or from the adventure era (Station Square, Mystic Ruins, Lost World, Egg Carrier, Master Emerald Altar, Metal Harbor, The Ark). These are the locations that appeared either more than once due to their importance to the story or are just iconic levels from the past. I can't remember a single stage from newer games that is equally important to the universe. And that's because the games now don't really have the LORE anymore and that brings me to the next point being

- The LORE

The lore was created and established in the Classic games and games before Sonic the hedgehog 2006, but then it just kinda died. Again, every important location is either from the Classic games or from the Adventure era, but it's not only the stages. It's the events as well.

- The whole Death Egg saga (That has some kind of connections between Classic games and Sonic adventure). That was in the Classic games.

- The story of the Knuckles'/Tikal's tribe and the story of Chaos - Sonic adventure, Sonic Chronicles

- The whole Ark saga. Now this is just as huge as the Death Egg saga if not even more huge. - Sonic adventure 2, Sonic battle, Sonic heroes (Shadow being the connection), Shadow the hedgehog

- The events connected with Emerl - Sonic battle, Sonic advance 3, Sonic chronicles(I know it's not canon but still..)

- The whole Blaze story. - Sonic Rush, Sonic Rush Adventure. These games told us pretty much everything we know about Blaze.

Again, I can't remember a single part of the modern lore (if there IS lore now), that could have such big influence on the further development of the universe. Every single event happened in S06 was erased from time, every single event from Unleashed was forgotten in the next game, in Colors there was actually no back story like in Sa/Sa2/Shth/Sbattle etc.. and generations is just one giant plot hole, a giant dump of past events that either don't have any connections with other games or even contradict each other (Blaze)

But that's not everything.

- VOCAL CHARACTER THEMES

This is something that I just hate now. Every time they use a character song, it's either a song from Sonic adventure, Sonic Adventure 2 or Shadow the hedgehog, in other words, from games of the past. There hasn't been ANY new character theme from 2006. Yes, those themes are amazing and it's good to not forget about them, but back in times of the Adventure era EVERY new game had new character themes and it was freaking awesome! And some characters don't even have a character vocal theme yet (Blaze, Cream). I understand that it's due to "Sonic only" crap and because they are not playable and don't have any major importance to the story, but it sucks as well. And why not create a new character theme for Dr. Eggman? That music from S06 is not a vocal theme and again, it's from the game of the past.

A lot of vocal themes are not even relevant anymore, because the characters had their development and those themes don't really fit them now.

- RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN CHARACTERS AND CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT

This was established in the Adventure era as well. And while there was some major character development, they just screwed most of it like Tails being more independent (Sa, Sa2) or Knuckles not being stupid gullible guy. (Sa, Sa2), Amy not being a stalker bitch. There also were some hints towards relashioship between Knuckles and Rouge but they decided to pretty much forget about that. Now all relashionships between characters are just EXACTLY the same. There is no development in friendship between Shadow and Rouge, there is no development of Knuckles as a guardian of the M.E. etc.

I think half of these problems are there because of the "Sonic only" shit, but the other half... To me it looks like the universe is stagnant. Every game has (almost) no connections to the next and that lead to the point that there are no events that are important to the development of the whole Sonic world, there is (almost) no character development and in some cases the characters even degraded, Iconic locations are all from the past, vocal character themes are also all from the past.

While I think they are making big progress with the gameplay and style of the series, I'm pretty sure they just said "screw that" to everything else that made the Sonic Universe so interesting, rich and lively.

I hope all this makes sense. I might make some mistakes or maybe not made myself clear enough, because it's a bit hard to make a post like that with so many thoughts in engslish.

WOW, THAT was THE post xD

Now, what do you guys think about all that?

Edited February 11, 2012 by ArtFenix

[Milo]

No.

Sonic doesn't rely too much on the past.

SEGA/SONIC TEAM does. For the past two years we've gotten games with past references ranging from nostalgia nods to nostalgic recreation to nostalgia whoring.

[ArtFenix]

No.

Sonic doesn't rely too much on the past.

SEGA/SONIC TEAM does. For the past two years we've gotten games with past references ranging from nostalgia nods to nostalgic recreation to nostalgia whoring.

That's actually what I meant^_^. I wasn't speaking about Sonic as a character after all. Edited February 11, 2012 by ArtFenix

[Marcello]

No.

Sonic doesn't rely too much on the past.

SEGA/SONIC TEAM does. For the past two years we've gotten games with past references ranging from nostalgia nods to nostalgic recreation to nostalgia whoring.

So, in other words, Sonic relies too much on the past.

[Milo]

So, in other words, Sonic relies too much on the past.

As in the franchise? Sure.

[Marcello]

As in the franchise? Sure.

That was what was meant the whole time. Why disagree with him just to say what he said...

[Milo]

I didn't know he meant the franchise, I thought he meant the character. Stupid assumption, sorry.

[OlenJimi]

SEGA could end up like CAPCOM if they don't step it up. Nostalgia is fine sometimes. I think Heroes did a fine job at being nostalgic, yet still pretty original.

[Emmett L. Brown]

I prefer self-contained stories over tons of storyline baggage with each new installment. Therefore your conclusion (which is the opposite of the title, you sneaky sleuth you) that the later games ignore the past and the "lore" is one I'm fine with.

"What's that? Dr. Eggman has broken the world into pieces and released an ancient monster from the core? Let's go! But first we must find out what GUN is doing about this global disaster, and what Knuckles is up to, and where Shadow is hiding, and whether Silver's future got changed again, and what's going on in Station Square, and what happened to the last Tornado plane, and why doesn't Eggman use Metal Sonic this time, and what is the President doing about this, and who is Rouge working for this time, and... You know what? Forget it."

[Scar]

Part 1 of 2

Hi guys^^. This is the topic I wanted to create a long time ago. It's not based on the "themes of the adventure era" topic but has some similar intersecting things.

Now, time to explain myself.

There's something that has been bothering me for quite a while. I tend to notice that recent Sonic games rely too much on the past. I'm not quite talking about Sonic 4 and all that rehashed stuff, but about other aspects of the franchise, the first of them being

...Yet you want Sonic Team to make a game more like the Adventure Saga...Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

- The STAGES

Pretty much all the iconic locations or those that have some role in the overall story are either from Classic games (Green Hill, Ice Cap, Angel Island, Hidden Palace, Sky Sanctuary, Death Egg)

Haha, Green Hill and the classic stages are iconic....because they've been around for a long time and are imprinted in a lot of gamers minds. They are synonimous with Sonic.

or from the adventure era (Station Square, Mystic Ruins, Lost World, Egg Carrier, Master Emerald Altar, Metal Harbor, The Ark).

You're giving these stages more importance than they actually have. Station Square, the Mystic Ruins and the Lost World are neither seen, nor referenced again in the canon console titles, not even in its sequel SA2. Egg Carrier is breifly mentioned in Heroes ("Woah, this ship is even bigger than the Egg Carrier"). Master Emerald Alter has only been referenced in the games in which it was relevant (i.e SA1 and SA2 , not including handhelds), after which it has never been seen or mentioned again, neither in Shadow nor 06, or indeed any game after. Metal Harbour is barely considered iconic outside of fans of the adventure games. Its got nice music, but pretty boring level design.

These are the locations that appeared either more than once due to their importance to the story or are just iconic levels from the past.

None of them had any significant impact outside of the story of the game they were in. Station Square has no impact on SA2 (in fact, the whole of SA1 has no impact on SA2). If its as iconic levels from the past, then they're iconic because they're from the past, not because they're something special in the series. All of those places have never really been mentioned in any recent game, because they don't matter.

I can't remember a single stage from newer games that is equally important to the universe.

That's true, but then, NONE of the stages outside of a select few stages from the classics are important to the Universe at all. Each new game, has always had completely new stages (except Sonic 4 Episode 1 and Generations for obvious reasons) and locations to keep things fresh and interesting.

- The LORE

The lore was created and established in the Classic games and games before Sonic the hedgehog 2006, but then it just kinda died. Again, every important location is either from the Classic games or from the Adventure era, but it's not only the stages. It's the events as well.

Every important location is from none. None of the past stages have ever been used more than once in any game. The only exception is the Ark, because that was rehashed in Shadow's own game. Outside of that one location (which has never been seen or used again since) no locations are any more important than the other. Why? Because every game (except Sonic 4 Ep. 1 and Generations) they try to create new stages to keep things interesting and fresh. It would be boring to have to trundle through the same places every game just to maintain some continuity. Besides, isn't relying on the past a problem?

- The whole Death Egg saga (That has some kind of connections between Classic games and Sonic adventure). That was in the Classic games.

Its important but its never really mentioned or referenced at all outside of the DE Saga itself. It happened, no need to keep talking about it.

- The story of the Knuckles'/Tikal's tribe and the story of Chaos - Sonic adventure, Sonic Chronicles

Chronicles barely counts as a canon game. In fact, it isn't canon. So, that whole story is only really contained within SA1.

- The whole Ark saga. Now this is just as huge as the Death Egg saga if not even more huge. - Sonic adventure 2, Sonic battle, Sonic heroes (Shadow being the connection), Shadow the hedgehog

Heroes doesn't count. Shadow simply being there doesn't create a connection to the Ark. That is grasping at straws that barely exist. The Ark is never mentioned in Heroes at all. Shadow's game? Yeah OK, but that's because ShtH is the the only game to be a direct sequel to another game (SA2). Its more or less an (unecessary) extention to SA2, and is of no more significance than the Death Egg saga. Once again, never mentioned again since.

- The events connected with Emerl - Sonic battle, Sonic advance 3, Sonic chronicles(I know it's not canon but still..)

Not Canon, means I can't really consider it.

- The whole Blaze story. - Sonic Rush, Sonic Rush Adventure. These games told us pretty much everything we know about Blaze.

OK.....so? Neither Rush title is "iconic" and none of its locations are mentioned or referenced in either game, or any game since.

Again, I can't remember a single part of the modern lore (if there IS lore now), that could have such big influence on the further development of the universe. Every single event happened in S06 was erased from time, every single event from Unleashed was forgotten in the next game, in Colors there was actually no back story like in Sa/Sa2/Shth/Sbattle etc..

Let me ask you, do the events in Unleashed need to be mentioned or remembered in the next game? What function would it serve? Nothing really, because Colours takes place far away from Sonic's home planet (lets call it Earth for simplicity's sake) and so events that transpired in Unleashed are mostly irrelevant. Focus on what is happening now, not what happened a week ago.

and generations is just one giant plot hole, a giant dump of past events that either don't have any connections with other games or even contradict each other (Blaze)

But that's not everything.

Generations is a celebration of 20 years of Sonic, not a game which is intended to have some epic storyline. It barely counts as canon.

- VOCAL CHARACTER THEMES

This is something that I just hate now. Every time they use a character song, it's either a song from Sonic adventure, Sonic Adventure 2 or Shadow the hedgehog, in other words, from games of the past. There hasn't been ANY new character theme from 2006. Yes, those themes are amazing and it's good to not forget about them, but back in times of the Adventure era EVERY new game had new character themes and it was freaking awesome! And some characters don't even have a character vocal theme yet (Blaze, Cream). I understand that it's due to "Sonic only" crap and because they are not playable and don't have any major importance to the story, but it sucks as well. And why not create a new character theme for Dr. Eggman? That music from S06 is not a vocal theme and again, it's from the game of the past.

A lot of vocal themes are not even relevant anymore, because the characters had their development and those themes don't really fit them now.

Ahem, Sonic's theme changes with every game. In Sonic Heroes it was "We Can", in 06 it was "His World", in Secret Rings it was "Seven Rings in Hand", in Unleashed it was "Endless Possibility/The World Adventure", in Black Knight, it was "Knight of the Wind/With Me (with Merlina)" in Colours it was "Reach for the Stars", Generations didn't have a theme. The only time a character theme tune was reused was in SA1/SA2 and in Black Knight. The latter involved a 30second clip of "It doesn't matter" and "Throw it all away" intended as a throwback, not the actual bloody theme. Generations didn't even use a character theme....for anyone.

The only reason the Eggman theme from 06 has been used again, is because its a good piece of music and its quite fitting for Eggman, slightly menacing and slightly clown-like.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Scar

[OlenJimi]

Less nostalgia please.

Edited February 11, 2012 by OlenJimi

[Scar]

Part 2 of 2

- RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN CHARACTERS AND CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT

This was established in the Adventure era as well. And while there was some major character development, they just screwed most of it like Tails being more independent (Sa, Sa2)

Bollocks. Tails has been more independant and less clingy to Sonic. Colours is evidence to support this. In fact, SA2 pretty much fucked it up by itself by giving Tails the same bloody character Ark as SA1.

or Knuckles not being stupid gullible guy. (Sa, Sa2).,

No, they reinforced that Knuckles WAS a stupid gullible guy, more than they should have. Particularly SA1. In SA2 its never mentioned again really

, Amy not being a stalker bitch.

This I'll concede.

There also were some hints towards relashioship between Knuckles and Rouge but they decided to pretty much forget about that.

Yeah, they decided to forget about that in Heroes. Its not a problem created by the Modern games, because their whole relationship was dropped like a dead rat by the very next game (still in the so-called "Adventure Arc"). This is not a recent issue.

Now all relashionships between characters are just EXACTLY the same.

In what way?

There is no development in friendship between Shadow and Rouge,

They haven't been in a game together in that kind of capacity since 06 (mainly because they don't need to be in every fucking game. You can't develop a relationship that isn't visible to the player.

there is no development of Knuckles as a guardian of the M.E. etc.

This was fucked up by Heroes, Shadow and 06, because in those games, Knuckles was present in the game, but his role as the ME Guardian was never mentioned ever again.......It is not a recent problem, it existed before the Modern Era even began.

I think half of these problems are there because of the "Sonic only" shit, but the other half... To me it looks like the universe is stagnant. Every game has (almost) no connections to the next and that lead to the point that there are no events that are important to the development of the whole Sonic world, there is (almost) no character development and in some cases the characters even degraded, Iconic locations are all from the past, vocal character themes are also all from the past.

No. Vocal themes haven't been recycled at all if you've been paying any attention at all. Iconic locations haven't been brought back at all, except in Generations (for obvious reasons) if you've been paying attention. Character development was degraded before the Modern Era even began. The modern era (Generations doesn't count, as its a celebration) itself featured only 2 characters (Sonic and Tails) and so other characters and their development can't have been degraded.

While I think they are making big progress with the gameplay and style of the series, I'm pretty sure they just said "screw that" to everything else that made the Sonic Universe so interesting, rich and lively

Maybe to you, but to me the Sonic Universe was rich and lively, until Shadow the Hedgehog (the game) and Sonic the Hedgehog (2006). They killed any soul the canon had at that point by created some of the worst stories I have ever experienced at all in my life. They murdered all the good character developement. Shadow ruined Shadow's character and then 06 kind of improved it a little, but that's the only good thing to come from the whole debacle. Frankly, Unleashed was the most rich and lively game ever made, because it spanned the whole world, featured many NPC's which had good characters, that you cared about (if you talked to them). There was a greater sense of tension and impending doom. It was basically as rich as SA1, just written a fuckload better. Colours was an isolated experience in space, can't say much about that.

Now, what do you guys think about all that?

I don't think much of it to be honest.

Most of this post has little to do with the topic title. Especially when what you want is the series to rely on the past, in particular, the Adventure Era for its narrative structure. This is unsurprising, because you've been saying that for a long LONG time now.

[Emmett L. Brown]

SA2 pretty much fucked it up by itself by giving Tails the same bloody character Ark as SA1.

I see what you did there.

[Pawn]

Bollocks. Tails has been more independant and less clingy to Sonic. Colours is evidence to support this. In fact, SA2 pretty much fucked it up by itself by giving Tails the same bloody character Ark as SA1.

I'm in agreement about Colours, but I don't agree that SA2 fucked it up. It was a natural continuation from SA, as he faced off against Robotnik as his rival for the game.

[Dr. Crusher]

-Title says Sonic relies too much on the past.

-Post keeps referring to the Adventure series.

Ho hum, ho hum.

I don't have anything gigantic to say, but I disagree. They may use it a lot, but I don't think it's as bad as others make it.

[ArtFenix]

Haha, Green Hill and the classic stages are iconic....because they've been around for a long time and are imprinted in a lot of gamers minds. They are synonimous with Sonic.

Exactly. Now there are no stages like those. In sa era games there were Emerald Coast and, especially, Seaside Hill, which are very memorable and which are synonimous with Sonic.

You're giving these stages more importance than they actually have. Station Square, the Mystic Ruins and the Lost World are neither seen, nor referenced again in the canon console titles, not even in its sequel SA2.

But I DID add that I was talking not only about Stages that appeared more than once, but about those that have close connections to the stories and having closed connections to stories makes games like those more complete products. They don't have a story that has nothing to do with stages. Colors, for example had only two stages that had anything to do with the story. Every other stage could look absolutely different and i wouldn't change anything. remove Lost World or Mystic Ruins from Sa and the game would change dramatically.

None of them had any significant impact outside of the story of the game they were in.

See the answer above.

That's true, but then, NONE of the stages outside of a select few stages from the classics are important to the Universe at all.

I can't agree with this. Stages like the Ark or Mystic Ruins had very important role in the story => the continuity => the universe.

What function would it serve?

Continuity. This and feeling that characters actually remember their past adventures which makes them more believable characters. I like what they did in Sa2 [that paper with an article about Tails vs Eggman in Sa] and Generations [sonic remembered Colors and Secret rings].

Generations is a celebration of 20 years of Sonic, not a game which is intended to have some epic storyline. It barely counts as canon.

I DID say it's a giant dump of past events that either don't have any connections with other games or even contradict each other. By saying that I pointed out that SG didn't bring anything new to the Universe, but it made things worse. What was the point in basically repeating my words? And I don't remember anyone from Sega saying that it's not canon even though I agree with you that a game like this shouldn't be considered canon.

Er.. OK, Scar. I wanted to make more quotes like you did and answer each of them, but I'm afraid arguing with you won't take us anywhere and looks like you either got me wrong or just you try to put your words in my mouth saying things like this.

Most of this post has little to do with the topic title. Especially when what you want is the series to rely on the past, in particular, the Adventure Era for its narrative structure. This is unsurprising, because you've been saying that for a long LONG time now.

This is not the idea of the whole topic. The idea is that back then games had some sort of contunuity and things that you were familiar with without being total rehashes like they do now. The idea is that back then every game had something NEW in every aspect of it: new vocal themes, new stories that were expanding the universe, new character development. In some cases they were good, in some they were bad, but they at least TRIED to DO something with that world. The idea is that now I can't help but get the feeling that the only thing they care now is the gameplay and only gameplay. Everything else desides the gameplay is just achievements of past games and leftovers of them. I know you will say something like "duh, these are GAMES we're talking about", but we are not in early 90 anymore. Developing games is art and there is much, much more than just gameplay, especially since Sonic already proved to be more than capable of having decent storylines and expanded universe.

-Post keeps referring to the Adventure series.

Excuse me! It that a sin referring to the Adventure series? And I DID mention the Classics and other games before 2006. Please, stop putting your words into my mouth. I mention the adventures more often just because I believe it made lots of things right Edited February 11, 2012 by ArtFenix

[Voyant]

Not trying to start a argument...but if your complaining about Sonic relying so much on the past why be so pushy of wanting Sonic to be like the Adventure games again?

Unless you just reached a moment of enlightenment recently.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Voy-Boy

[Semi-colon e]

You say rely on the past as a bad thing (fair enough), but the fact you always want the games to be like the Adventure titles is a little bit hypocritical tbh. It's okay when it relies on the past in the way you want it to, right?

I wouldn't mind seeing more story really, but only if it's not at the expense of gameplay.

[Scar]

Exactly. Now there are no stages like those. In sa era games there were Emerald Coast and, especially, Seaside Hill, which are very memorable and which are synonimous with Sonic.

Nostalgia. New stages don't have nostalgia attributed to them because they're far too recent. Even still, Rooftop Run/Spagonia and Planet Wisp are pretty "iconic" to me.

Er.. OK, Scar. I wanted to make more quotes like you did and answer each of them, but I'm afraid arguing with you won't take us anywhere and looks like you either got me wrong or just you try to put your words in my mouth saying things like this.

I think you misconstrued your own topic title and what I was trying to say. You said that SEGA/Sonic Team relies too much on the past. Bear that in mind and read your OP. You should realise, that based on what you say, you want SEGA to rely even more on the past, specifically a section of the past you happened to enjoy the most, above all.

This is not the idea of the whole topic. The idea is that back then games had some sort of contunuity and things that you were familiar with without being total rehashes like they do now. The idea is that back then every game had something NEW in every aspect of it: new vocal themes, new stories that were expanding the universe, new character development. In some cases they were good, in some they were bad, but they at least TRIED to DO something with that world.

That's what you feel. The fact is that they didn't in any real capacity. The only games which felt connected in any way, were Shadow and SA2. SA2 itself was barely connected to SA1, and the connection they chose didn't even make any sense. Tails had the yellow Chaos Emerald because Station Square awarded it to him for saving them from Eggman (i.e Egg Walker). This glosses completely over the fact that Perfect Chaos happened and Sonic was the last to have all 7 emeralds and that Station Square was too busy being in ruins to have awarded Tails with a Chaos Emerald they weren't even in posession of. Heroes' only connection to SA2 literally was just Shadow, which isn't a deep enough connection to consider to have expanded the Sonic universe. As I mentioned Shadow did connect to SA2, but unfortunately, it did more to regress any character development the characters had, than it did to improve it. Sonic 06 made no connections to any previous games at all, except featuring the same cast of characters minus Big and Cream. Once again it did more to destroy what little continuity and development the series had than it did to advance and deepen it.

The idea is that now can't help but get the feeling that the only thing they care now is the gameplay and only gameplay. Everything else desides the gameplay is just achievements and leftovers of past games.

That's not what the Topic Title says. The topic title says Sonic Team/SEGA rely too much on the past, when you just stated that the point of the threat was to show how you " can't help but get the feeling that the only thing they care now is the gameplay and only gameplay. Everything else desides the gameplay is just achievements and leftovers of past games."

So I will again say, the majority of your post directly contradicts your topic title. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

I know you will say something like "duh, these are GAMES we're talking about", but we are not in early 90 anymore. Developing games is art and there is much, much more than just gameplay, especially since Sonic already proved to be more than capable of having decent storylines and expanded universe.

Yes it can, but in order to do this, there do not need to be constant talking about past events. It should only happen when relevant. Colours didn't reference Unleashed because there was nothing happening in Colours that would remind them of events that transpired during Unleashed. Was one of the planets broken into peices? No. References should be context sensitive, not randomly thrown in there because continuity. Generations' references work, because Chemical Plant and Green Hill were familiar to him. He mentioned saving aliens and genies, because Tails said they were in a weird situation, to which Sonic responds by saying that its nothing new, and they've been in weird situations before.

Excuse me! It that a sin referring to the Adventure series especially if I believe it made lots of things right?

Not really, but it is irritating when you hold up blatant double standards. That's what it looks like from here at least. You say Sonic Team relies too much on the Past, but you want them to rely more on the past that you like. Sorry, doesn't that sound a little hypocritical? Perhaps you should change the title to "Sonic Team do not rely enough on past elements, because it seems that is what you're actually trying to say.

[Diogenes]

Sonic relies too much on the past

Yes and no. Recently especially they've been trying too hard to look familiar without actually getting the meat of the game correct.

Pretty much all the iconic locations or those that have some role in the overall story

What "overall story"?

are either from Classic games *snip* or from the adventure era *snip*.

"Iconic" levels are, kind of by definition, ones that are old and well-established. And the earlier a level was made, the more time it has to be reused in any kind of long-term arc.

I can't remember a single stage from newer games that is equally important to the universe.

What does that actually mean? How is Ice Cap more "important" than Cool Edge?

The lore was created and established in the Classic games and games before Sonic the hedgehog 2006, but then it just kinda died.

Considering lore relies on building up events over time, I find it funny that you accuse the series of relying too much on the past and try to support it by showing how it isn't chained down by previous events.

Again, every important location is either from the Classic games or from the Adventure era, but it's not only the stages. It's the events as well.

So why are these the only important events? Why doesn't Unleashed, where the world was split into pieces and revealed the Gaias, who have destroyed and rebuilt the world several times in the past, count?

Again, I can't remember a single part of the modern lore (if there IS lore now), that could have such big influence on the further development of the universe.

"Could", pff. Those events have as much potential and as much likelihood of influencing future events as any new ones. Which is "some" and "most likely never", respectively.

every single event from Unleashed was forgotten in the next game,

What? No. They just didn't focus on it. The series has never had any obligation to obsess over the previous game, and not doing so in no way means the game has been "forgotten".

in Colors there was actually no back story like in Sa/Sa2/Shth/Sbattle etc..

I have no idea what you're getting at here, unless you were expecting the game to explain why the wisps exist, which is not in any way necessary for the story to be valid. They're aliens, from an alien planet, presumably they came into existence however the life forms on Earth did.

Every time they use a character song, it's either a song from Sonic adventure, Sonic Adventure 2 or Shadow the hedgehog, in other words, from games of the past.

And this is a bad thing? I would think it's a positive for a series to have consistent character themes! They exist to be memorable and representative; expecting them to constantly make new ones is like expecting them to redesign the characters each game.

they just screwed most of it like Tails being more independent (Sa, Sa2)

How did they "screw" this, exactly?

Every game has (almost) no connections to the next

Welcome to the Sonic series, hard continuity is not one of its strong points.

[ArtFenix]

Nostalgia. New stages don't have nostalgia attributed to them because they're far too recent. Even still, Rooftop Run/Spagonia and Planet Wisp are pretty "iconic" to me.

Hm.. I think I can partially agree with this even though only Planet Wisp is the stage that has anything to do with the game's story. You understood what I was trying to say when I said that there should be connection between story and a stage, right?

I think you misconstrued your own topic title and what I was trying to say. You said that SEGA/Sonic Team relies too much on the past. Bear that in mind and read your OP. You should realise, that based on what you say, you want SEGA to rely even more on the past, specifically a section of the past you happened to enjoy the most, above all.

Well, I'm not sure what I should have named the topic. maybe you could suggest something?

That's what you feel. The fact is that they didn't in any real capacity.

Yes, that's what I feel and they actually did. bad or not, it's a matter of opinion, but anything is better than nothing in my opinion.

Station Square was too busy being in ruins to have awarded Tails with a Chaos Emerald they weren't even in posession of.

Ah yeah.. good old plot holes..

Sonic 06 made no connections to any previous games at all

Sonic 06 was a partial reboot. And Unleashed was even more of a reboot. I will never understand why there was a need for rebooting the franchise anyway since there was such little connections between some games anyway.

Once again it did more to destroy what little continuity and development the series had than it did to advance and deepen it.

That's why I didn't talk about it.

So I will again say, the majority of your post directly contradicts your topic title. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

Ok. I see what you mean. I just can't come up with a more suitable name.

Anyway, forget about the topic name. The idea is more important.

Generations' references work, because Chemical Plant and Green Hill were familiar to him. He mentioned saving aliens and genies, because Tails said they were in a weird situation, to which Sonic responds by saying that its nothing new, and they've been in weird situations before.

But it's these small things that make the series more consistent and makes every game some kind of a part of 1 series, bot like every game is it's own series if that makes sense.

Not really, but it is irritating when you hold up blatant double standards. That's what it looks like from here at least. You say Sonic Team relies too much on the Past, but you want them to rely more on the past that you like. Sorry, doesn't that sound a little hypocritical? Perhaps you should change the title to "Sonic Team do not rely enough on past elements, because it seems that is what you're actually trying to say.

I think that might be because it's a bit hard to express myself using english]]. Sorry about that. I'll try again.

I said they seem to care about gameplay only. That's what it looks like to me, because it's the only ORIGINAL thing now. Original levels, level structure and stuff like that. But when they try to include other things like vocal character themes, or show us what relashioship characters have or try to make story more complex, they always just didn't want to use that word REHASH things from past games.

They rehash achievements of character development like friendship between Shadow and Rouge or Sonic and Blaze that were established in PAST games, but they don't develop them any further.

They rehash vocal character themes from past games or just don't use them at all and that's a missing opportunity when everyone would benefit from new vocal character themes. "reach for the stars" or "Endless possibilities" are not quite character themes. They are main themes of games and anyway they are all about Sonic and Sonic only.

They rehash events from past Sonic games when they could EXPAND them like Chronicles did [i'm talking about expanding past events of Knuckles tribe].

I'll repeat this

To me it looks like the universe is stagnant.

The problem is all sonicteam improve and pay attention to now is the gameplay and it's Sonic only gameplay [don't count Sonic 4 since I'm talking about main 3D games]. It's great, but it's not the only great thing about the franchise.

The problem is that SEGA does one of these two things

- They either forget about things aformentioned

- Or they REHASH them

I hope I made myself more clear this time. And I'll gladly rename the topic if there are any better ideas.

Man..I'm tired xD.

Now. Diogenes.

What "overall story"?

The continuity.. it's a bit hard to explain.

What does that actually mean? How is Ice Cap more "important" than Cool Edge?

While I see what you mean, Ice Cap is first arctic themed level that is memorable itself and has memorable music.

So why are these the only important events? Why doesn't Unleashed, where the world was split into pieces and revealed the Gaias, who have destroyed and rebuilt the world several times in the past, count?

Maybe because there's no connection with any other game making Unleashed a standalone title. If we forget about it, nothing will change in the Sonic World. if we forget events of Sa we will lose backstory of Knucles tribe, Chaos and some other things that were developed or mentioned in next games or just things that were important for development of certain characters like Amy or Tails.

What? No. They just didn't focus on it. The series has never had any obligation to obsess over the previous game, and not doing so in no way means the game has been "forgotten".

Hm. makes sense.

I have no idea what you're getting at here, unless you were expecting the game to explain why the wisps exist, which is not in any way necessary for the story to be valid. They're aliens, from an alien planet, presumably they came into existence however the life forms on Earth did.

How about this?

The events of Sonic Colors obviously take place on another planet. How about explaining how the hell did the characters get there and how Eggman thought of a plan like this?

And this is a bad thing? I would think it's a positive for a series to have consistent character themes! They exist to be memorable and representative; expecting them to constantly make new ones is like expecting them to redesign the characters each game.

It's not a bad thing in itself. The bad thing is that as I've already said, some of these themes are not relevant anymore. For example "Throw it all away" is not relevant, because Sa2 Shadow =/= current Shadow. And read what I wrote to Scar.

How did they "screw" this, exactly?

That's how

And That's how

http://youtu.be/qVLDRzjUw8Y?t=1m3s

Welcome to the Sonic series, hard continuity is not one of its strong points.

A shame IMO.

Edited February 11, 2012 by ArtFenix

[Diogenes]

The continuity.. it's a bit hard to explain.

[OlenJimi]

The whole series should just focus on Eggman, he is the best character after all. Objectively

[sonfan1984]

I don't see how Sonic relies too much on his past when it only happened for two games now. Most of the time whenever Sega does anything new or different, it gets panned for it. Also, nostalgia sells and it seems to be working well for them right now.

[batson]

if your complaining about Sonic relying so much on the past why be so pushy of wanting Sonic to be like the Adventure games again?

Apples and oranges. ArtFenix can very well want the type of complex, takes-itself-seriously type of narrative of the Adventure games to return to newer games yet still dont want newer games to feature the same old locations and lore from those games. It doesn't make him a hypocrite at all, because those opinions concern two different things entirely.