The Knuckles Topic - Is monkey a Knuckles-butt?

[Gamenerd]

Um, no. You remember that Eggman was also going to steal the Master Emerald in SA2 when detected near Rouge and Knuckles? How the hell is shrinking it and carrying it with him off the island going to do Knuckles any favor when all Eggman has to do to steal it from him now is kick his ass in a fight? It would be Sonic and Knuckles all over again after he stole in the first time.

Whereas a shrine that is completely out in the open like Adventure's one is a better idea? And Eggman didn't exactly have a hard time getting hold of it in S3K either - the history of the series dictates that Knuckles has done a pretty bad job of keeping that Emerald in his own hands ever since Sonic and Eggy got involved. It doesn't make a difference if it's in an indoor shrine, an outdoor shrine, in Knuckles' possession or in the middle of nowhere; historically, if Eggman wants the Emerald for his plan, more often than not he gets it.

[Chooch]

I think I can safely say I love this character more than most other people, but even I'm really tired of this discussion. It's just an endless cycle that goes nowhere. A Catch 22.

No one seems to ever agree on what they want Sonic Team to do with this character, which is why he hardly appears at all these days in anything outside of spin-offs. The Master Emerald has been entirely cast aside as a plot device for more than a decade now and Knuckles with it. Part of me wonders if he'll have a major role in a Sonic game ever again.

Maybe he'll just fade into obscurity.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Chooch

[Dr. Mechano]

I kinda see it like this:

- Knuckles has to protect Angel Island and the Master Emerald.

- Eggman frequently tries to take over the world.

- The Master Emerald is in the world, after all, so stopping it from being conquered is probably relevant to Knuckles's interests- at least on a tangential level.

In short, I see no irreconcilable issues with Knuckles being the Master Emerald's guardian and going on adventures to stop Eggman (and other villains) from threatening the overall status of the planet. In a very real sense, these concerns would inevitably affect him, so one could consider his heroism to be an extension of his Emerald-guarding duties.

[Chooch]

I've made that point before Mechano.

It doesn't seem to satisfy people at all.

[Kuzu]

I kinda see it like this:

- Knuckles has to protect Angel Island and the Master Emerald.

- Eggman frequently tries to take over the world.

- The Master Emerald is in the world, after all, so stopping it from being conquered is probably relevant to Knuckles's interests- at least on a tangential level.

In short, I see no irreconcilable issues with Knuckles being the Master Emerald's guardian and going on adventures to stop Eggman (and other villains) from threatening the overall status of the planet. In a very real sense, these concerns would inevitably affect him, so one could consider his heroism to be an extension of his Emerald-guarding duties.

But if Sonic & Tails are already handling Eggman stomping duties, why should Knuckles even come along? I could understand if Sonic & Tails actively went out their to recruit him every time, but for him to just randomly show up whenever trouble rises still seems off for someone who's supposed to be guarding an ultimate power.

Like Chooch said, we may never reach an ideal conclusion, either one of three thing will happen:

1. Sega actually remember his fucking purpose and use him accordingly(I.e. when needed and not at any opportunity).

2. He'll just show up for no reason and be demoted to Sonic's second sidekick who punches things.

3. None of the above, and Knuckles just fades more and more into the background.

[Chooch]

Knuckles loyalty knows no bounds. If his help may be needed then he'll be there to protect his friends. That's what he's best at. Protecting. He is a guardian after all. Despite all their differences, it's particularly easy to assume that when the going gets tough, Sonic will be able to count on Knuckles to back him up whenever he needs help. And, well.. I think he enjoys being around to clobber on ol' Egghead.

It's funny, considering Knuckles' appearances in games that don't involve the Master Emerald are the subject of many debates. I really think if people were to quit looking at things so superficially and dig a bit deeper they wouldn't be so concerned with Knuckles taking time away from the Master Emerald do go adventuring with Sonic and Tails (and whoever else may be around).

Time and time again, the only reoccurring threat to the Master Emerald has been Dr. Ivo Robotnik himself. No one else. If Eggman's plans are thwarted, leaving him running with his metaphorical tail between his legs, the primary threat to the Master Emerald is always temporarily put at bay. Plus it's an excuse to mosey on off of the island, bust up a few robots, and hang out with the only real friends he has. Is that such a bad thing? I don't particularly think so.

I think people like Sonic and Eggman are things that Knuckles has wanted all along. It's a temporary cure to his isolation and loneliness. Yes, I said it. I think Knuckles is a lonely little bastard. He'll never admit it because he's too embarrassed to, but I genuinely think he is. When the Death Egg crashed on Angel Island, Knuckles life completely changed.

He may have to put up with an annoyingly cocky hedgehog, a overly clingy two-tailed fox, and giant mustached freak that oddly looks like food, but his life sure has hell has gotten a lot more interesting. Needless to say he's loving it.

Quoting from my big, fat, obnoxious Knuckles post I made months ago.

[Gabz Girl]

KNUXIE~!

Yeah I used to be a HUGE fangirl of Knuckles back inna day. XD; I even found this in one of my folders from years ago. Chris made it for me. :3

Don't worry, twas a joke thing. XP

Anyway, I still like Knuckles, but I'm not a fan anymore because of his absence in recent Sonic games. And if he isn't absent, they don't really do anything interesting with his character or backstory like in SA1. I don't want characters like Knuckles to fade into obscurity whilst newer more "popular" ones like Shadow get more attention. It makes me sad, because Knuckles is after all one of the main characters. Please SEGA, at least put Knuckles in the third Sonic 4 game (if there ever is one)!

[Kuzu]

I guess I wouldn't mind Knuckles becoming a second Tails, or a traveling treasure hunter, but it just seems like a major cop out just for the sake of having him appear more, I mean what actual purpose he serve by being in more games?

[Chooch]

I mean what actual purpose he serve by being in more games?

I hate to be the one trying to make this point, but what purpose does Amy Rose serve? I don't know how many people have realized this but Amy hasn't missed a single major game outing since Sonic Adventure back in 1999. Knuckles at the very least is tied what has been used as a major plot device in a number of games. Amy? She's quite literally just a stalker and not much else.

She's even in Sonic Unleashed. A game which, funnily enough, does not have the Master Emerald or Knuckles involved in its plot and, also funnily enough, has a world map which makes no reference to Angel Island existing whatsoever. It's hilarious how unimportant the Master Emerald and Knuckles are these days.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Chooch

[Kuzu]

I hate to be the one trying to make this point, but what purpose does Amy Rose serve? I don't know how many people have realized this but Amy hasn't missed a single major game outing since Sonic Adventure back in 1999. Knuckles at the very least is tied what has been used as a major plot device in a number of games. Amy? She's quite literally just a stalker and not much else.

Because that was her purpose from her conception, to follow Sonic around and try to win his love, something that's not too complicated to understand, so Amy is at least serving her purpose as irrelevant as it is, and even then she contributes something whenever she's involved, whereas Knuckles is most of the time just kind of....there.

Its different with Knuckles, because Amy & Tails were designed to follow/assist Sonic from the moment of their conception, while Knuckles was probably going to play a Rival/Ally role in the series, but Shadow stole has that role now, and Knuckles was only left with his guardian role, and now that that's been irrelevant, Knuckles is just space filler now, and being simply the guy who punches things and gets angry seems like such a fucking demotion for the guy, I think I'd rather him not show up at all if that's going to be his lot in life.

She's even in Sonic Unleashed. A game which, funnily enough, does not have the Master Emerald or Knuckles involved in its plot and, also funnily enough, has a world map which makes no reference to Angel Island existing whatsoever. It's hilarious how unimportant the Master Emerald and Knuckles are these days.

Ironic isn't it, whenever Knuckles didn't need to be around he was, but when a situation arises where he can get involved, he's nowhere to be seen.

[Burning Neoxor]

With all the plots that Sonic Team manages to connect the chaos emeralds to, it's hard to imagine that they couldn't do the same for the master emerald every once and while. With that said, if you are considering an event where Knuckles parks the floating island and shrinks the master emerald to travel size, that event shouldn't be so he can be shoehorned in a game. Yes, he is friends with Sonic and Tails but tagging along with them just to have him appear detracts from his character. Every time that happens he becomes either Sonic's other cheerleader or the comedic relief while other characters actually have important roles to play when they appear (i.e. Shadow).

Besides being a guardian, Knuckles is also a treasure hunter. Riders:ZG revealed that Knuckles is capable of reading ancient languages. If the Sonic Team is going work in Knuckles without the master emerald, I would rather it be that Knuckles stumbles upon ancient source of power while transversing through ruins that Robotnik happens to be seeking as well. Knuckles could actually have a role in the plot instead of being the third member of Team Sonic.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Burning Neoxor

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Whereas a shrine that is completely out in the open like Adventure's one is a better idea?

Edited February 12, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[neezTHEhuman]

Slightly off topic but many people want Knuckles to be playable again. Can Sonic and Knuckles share the same levels in a 3D game?

Until now (not counting Heroes)that has not been the case and in '06 there were Knuckles only sections that were impossible for Sonic to pass through. The problem is that Knuckle's abilities unless seriously nerfed like in Heroes would simply break the game in the Sonic style level designs we have seen up till now. This holds especially true for Modern Sonic with his boost forcing designers to create narrow, straight, enclosed racetrack or hallway type paths so it could be entirely possible to climb a high spot and just glide all the way to end as Knuckles. Knuckles has so much access that wide open spaces with more exploration based gameplay rather: than get to the goal Sonic style becomes necessary in 3D, for example: Pumpkin Hill find the emerald pieces. Could Sonic play Pumpkin Hill? I guess so but it would have to be seriously altered and there would be a lot of platforming and hardly any speed sections which suits me but most people play Sonic for the speed and love boosting.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Because that was her purpose from her conception, to follow Sonic around and try to win his love, something that's not too complicated to understand, so Amy is at least serving her purpose as irrelevant as it is, and even then she contributes something whenever she's involved, whereas Knuckles is most of the time just kind of....there.

To be honest, I really wish Amy actually did more than stalk Sonic across the world the moment she gets a chance. It's not particularly fair to let her off the hook easy.

Only problem is that she rarely even gets brought up into the whole argument of who should be around, and not many concern themselves with her being around or absent except to bring up how she's a classic character. Knuckles on the other hand, is in the same boat as Shadow. But when that boat sinks, people are more than eager to give Knuckles a lifejacket, yet they would be more than happy to help Shadow drown.

The way I see it, either help them both or I'll make damn sure they both drown together. And since we're bringing Amy into the fray, let's throw her back in the ocean to drown with them two. Either that or we help all three.

She's even in Sonic Unleashed. A game which, funnily enough, does not have the Master Emerald or Knuckles involved in its plot and, also funnily enough, has a world map which makes no reference to Angel Island existing whatsoever. It's hilarious how unimportant the Master Emerald and Knuckles are these days.

Honestly, it made no sense why Knuckles, Rouge, Shadow, GUN, or the Chaotix got involved. Eggman just blew up the world into several pieces, you'd think that would be major enough to make others wonder what the hell happened and do something about it.

Edited February 12, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[redhellc]

Well I think that the master emerald doesn't need to be very relevant for the story for knuckles to appear, for example, just like in sa1 when the master emerald showed the egg carrier to knuckles to tell him where the rest of the shards were, the master emerald herself could show knuckles a place or thing that is wrong with the planet and send knuckles on the quest to protect the planet. I always thought that the emerald had I mind of its own and could be very worried about something happening to world it resides that it sends its own protector to fix the problem.

And you could go the easy way and do what generations as done and just transport every character to a place unknown, and make all characters join forces to go back to their world. Or something like that.

I too would like to see knuckles playable again, but he as to have a good reason to be in the game. I would prefer not seeing knuckles in a game than to see its character getting more ruined.

Edited February 12, 2012 by redhellc

[Kuzu]

To be honest, I really wish Amy actually did more than stalk Sonic across the world the moment she gets a chance. It's not particularly fair to let her off the hook easy.

Only problem is that she rarely even gets brought up into the whole argument of who should be around, and not many concern themselves with her being around or absent except to bring up how she's a classic character. Knuckles on the other hand, is in the same boat as Shadow. But when that boat sinks, people are more than eager to give Knuckles a lifejacket, yet they would be more than happy to help Shadow drown.

The way I see it, either help them both or I'll make damn sure they both drown together. And since we're bringing Amy into the fray, let's throw her back in the ocean to drown with them two. Either that or we help all three.

I find it incredibly hilarious that we have no problem with Sonic or Tails; Sonic is the hero who saves the world, and Tails is his sidekick who assist him with whatever gadget he needs, and Eggman is the villain who opposes them, this is as basic as it gets. But suddenly when someone beyond those three is thrown in, chaos ensues. With Amy she rarely does anything other than stalk Sonic , and only has a few moments of actual usefulness making her appearances kind of pointless. With Knuckles there needs to be some justification and reason for why he's not doing his job. With Shadow, he's a loner with his own problems and motives and like Knuckles, needs some justification for being around. Let's face it, Tails is pretty much the only one who can get away with "just appearing" simply for the fact that he's the sidekick, and nobody expects anything else from him.

[Phos]

The current Sonic Team would have a hard time incorporating Knuckles's more methodical abilities into the way they make Sonic games right now.

The global threat thing getting him to help I have to say does work better for Knuckles than Shadow because Knuckles seems friendlier with Sonic. Planets are very big, and if Eggman is trying to take the whole thing over, Shadow could be doing his own thing and never even run into Sonic. This is the kind of thing is part of why I don't like coming up with the structure of a plot so pragmatically but with a game like Sonic that's often ends up how it ends up being made, basically Knuckles is going to show up if the devs want to incorporate him into the game somehow. Knuckles was meant to be playable from the very start, and he fit right into the plot because he lived where the game took place, and it all worked out to be very organic.

Part of what doesn't help was the consolidation of the emeralds that took place after/during Sonic 3. He used to be guarding the Chaos Emeralds on Angel Island as well as the then unamed giant emerald, there's basically one thing there that someone can steal, but they already did that plotline. I'd certainly like him to show up again, considering he has his own style of play. I swear you might as well just dump a bomb in front of him like they did for his story in Sonic & Knuckles.

You cherry picked that one sentence out of that whole post just to make that point? We weren't talking about his characterization. We were talking about his occupation, which no duh, we all know it's his job to guard the Master Emerald and Angel Island. But who he is is a Guardian; just like how I called Tails being a Mechanic and a Sidekick, or Rouge as a government Agent, or Silver being a Time Traveler, aka the archetypes/purposes/jobs I mentioned for all the other characters where I also didn't apply the test in the first place? I suppose your going to tell me to keep the test in mind for them too when I didn't do that for them either? Maybe I should have worded it better (and probably stop using his character and occupation so interchangably since that's probably why you brought this up), but that's really suspect when you pick that one part out for Knuckles when I did that several times to other characters in the next paragraph.

I brought it up because of the statement that the Master Emerald is what makes Knuckles who he is. But on the subject of the others, I'd say that you shouldn't define their roles so narrowly.

And like the rings, if he gets hit once the Emerald gets knocked off of him and makes it easier to get stolen.

How do you know that?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The global threat thing getting him to help I have to say does work better for Knuckles than Shadow because Knuckles seems friendlier with Sonic. Planets are very big, and if Eggman is trying to take the whole thing over, Shadow could be doing his own thing and never even run into Sonic.

That still sounds like appeasement and is still no excuse.

If Eggman is trying to take the whole thing over, being friendlier towards Sonic has absolutely no weight over who it works better for appearing. Eggman was trying to take over the world in Sonic 06, but he never went beyond Soleanna's territory where it was anywhere near necessary for Knuckles to have been involved. The same would apply for Shadow, except he went into Soleanna's territory to rescue another agent and got dragged into it by someone else, he wasn't anywhere near interested in what Sonic was doing for the most part despite his assistance in the game. So that throws a big monkey wretch into that equation; it could even work in reverse, where Knuckles is doing his own thing and never so much as cross paths with Sonic, while Shadow (or whomever) happens to be around to help (or hinder) him.

This is the kind of thing is part of why I don't like coming up with the structure of a plot so pragmatically but with a game like Sonic that's often ends up how it ends up being made, basically Knuckles is going to show up if the devs want to incorporate him into the game somehow. Knuckles was meant to be playable from the very start, and he fit right into the plot because he lived where the game took place, and it all worked out to be very organic.

You make it sound like it's hard to do. But I have to say Knuckles involvement in games such as Heroes and Sonic 06 didn't work out to be very organic, as I'm sure you're aware of. Didn't really work out organically for a lot of other characters either, and that's taking in both one of the most simple and one of the most complex games in the series.

However, the same could pretty much be said for any character the devs want to incorporate, could it not?

I brought it up because of the statement that the Master Emerald is what makes Knuckles who he is. But on the subject of the others, I'd say that you shouldn't define their roles so narrowly.

Defining them by that wasn't my intention, so I apologize.

I was mainly trying to say don't throw it away and leave them with nothing simply so they can pal around with each other, at least regarding Knuckles. Each has a thing they specialize in or perform, and unless they're going to give them something equally worthwhile, don't throw it away because just because you don't like how it prevents folks from seeing him.

How do you know that?

I don't, really. But I wanted to pointed out a flaw in comparing them to the rings like that.

But if I wanted to be more of an ass about this, take SA1 where Sonic/Tails and Knuckles charged at each other and knocked themselves back, knocking the two emeralds out of Sonic/Tails possession. It wouldn't take much of a guess to assume the same thing could happen with Knuckles holding the Master Emerald if someone were to do the same to him, no?

Edited February 13, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Phos]

The bit about the global crisis favoring Knuckles and the bit about not liking the overly pragmatic evaluations of plot points were supposed to go together, a sort of reductio ad absurdum.

But if you think Knuckles would drop the Master Emerald if he took it with him, keep in mind that whether or not a character drops something in those games was determined by whether it was convenient to the story or not, just as chances are the only reason they had Knuckles shrink the emerald was so that they wouldn't have to animate him carrying it around. That kind of thing is why I don't mind that they seem to be mostly ignoring what went on in those games nowadays.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The bit about the global crisis favoring Knuckles and the bit about not liking the overly pragmatic evaluations of plot points were supposed to go together, a sort of reductio ad absurdum.

But if you think Knuckles would drop the Master Emerald if he took it with him, keep in mind that whether or not a character drops something in those games was determined by whether it was convenient to the story or not, just as chances are the only reason they had Knuckles shrink the emerald was so that they wouldn't have to animate him carrying it around.

Seriously, how freaking hard is it to make a plot that uses the Master Emerald in it or a very serious threat which ends up elevating the stakes to where it is more than justified for him (and other characters) to be around? Why give Knuckles all this preferential treatment when other characters can be just as effective (or even more in certain cases) for the plot? It's not like I'm asking for a Sonic version of Mass Effect (and even that was pretty damn simple when they did just that in Chronicles).

I would rather his involvement have more substance than "Knuckles shrunk the ME and is carrying it to hang with Sonic, but then he got hit and dropped it" or "Knuckles is carrying the ME, so don't worry about it and let him help". Because honestly, people ask the similar questions (or more absurd ones) when every other character happens to be around and give them a pass or fail depending on how they contribute, I don't see any solid reason why Knuckles should be an exception.

That kind of thing is why I don't mind that they seem to be mostly ignoring what went on in those games nowadays.

A side question: are you just as content of ignoring that Blaze is suppose to be in an alternate dimension instead of 200 years in the future? Or why Shadow went from being a artificial hedgehog to an alien-hedgehog hybrid, or how they didn't bother to explain his survival in Heroes before being given a throwaway "I saved you" in ShTH?

I'd like to assume that if you don't care about these issues for Knuckles, then you probably don't care about similar issues for other characters.

Edited February 13, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[batson]

I find it incredibly hilarious that we have no problem with Sonic or Tails; Sonic is the hero who saves the world, and Tails is his sidekick who assist him with whatever gadget he needs, and Eggman is the villain who opposes them, this is as basic as it gets. But suddenly when someone beyond those three is thrown in, chaos ensues. With Amy she rarely does anything other than stalk Sonic , and only has a few moments of actual usefulness making her appearances kind of pointless. With Knuckles there needs to be some justification and reason for why he's not doing his job. With Shadow, he's a loner with his own problems and motives and like Knuckles, needs some justification for being around. Let's face it, Tails is pretty much the only one who can get away with "just appearing" simply for the fact that he's the sidekick, and nobody expects anything else from him.

It's true that everyone seems to let Tails of the hook due to being Sonic' sidekick. But Knuckles essentially acted as sidekick number 2 throughout the entire 1994-2007 era. And unlike (it seems) everyone else, i for one wouldn't mind it at all if he became that again.

Edited February 13, 2012 by batson

[Kuzu]

It's true that everyone seems to let Tails of the hook due to being Sonic' sidekick. But Knuckles essentially acted as sidekick number 2 throughout the entire 1994-2007 era. And unlike (it seems) everyone else, i for one wouldn't mind it at all if he became that again.

[batson]

But here's the thing, between 1994-2001, Knuckles still had his established role as guardian, it was always a major plot point in every game up until Heroes which is why Knuckles was able to appear so much, afterwards they just up and forgot about it and Knuckles showed up just because he was expected to, even if didn't make sense for him to do so. He wasn't "Sidekick #2" he simply had his own goals that coincided with Sonic's and worked together because of it. Since the Master Emerald is completely irrelevant nowadays, Knuckles showing up doesn't make much sense, and like I said demoting him from his previous role to just Tails 2.0 seems like a fucking waste.

Edited February 13, 2012 by batson

[Kuzu]

Well then they should just make the master emerald relevant in pretty much every game again and then everything will be solved and Knuckles can go back to the series A-group, among Sonic, Tails and Eggman, where he belongs.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Since the Master Emerald is completely irrelevant nowadays, Knuckles showing up doesn't make much sense, and like I said demoting him from his previous role to just Tails 2.0 seems like a fucking waste.

Edited February 13, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic