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The Knuckles Topic - Is monkey a Knuckles-butt?


Indigo Rush

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Less shallow, more depth, dude. How about they alternate when to make the thing relevant to use the character and when not to? And after awhile, how about they make a plot where the threat gets so powerful, so severe, and affects so much that not only does Knuckles need to help, but other characters do to?

And why not be moderate and not put him in every game? I haven't been complaining about Shadow not making numerous appearances, and quite frankly I don't mind so long as they give him a decent role in another title. Why not give him a break and let other characters get a chance at a major role, and alternate who appears and who doesn't? And as a bonus, that break keeps him from getting stale and allows them time to brainstorm concepts on how to include him in the next game without being so repetitive.

It's much better than "I want Knuckles, so put in the Master Emerald. Now STFU or GTFO!" Just like how Shadow fans aren't the only people who like a character, Knuckles fans aren't the only people who make up this fandom, and they shouldn't be put over other large groups who want their character to shine too. It's more fair to let others have a piece than to be selfish and give them so little because they're not part of an "A-group".

Seriously, I got several years worth of ideas I can throw at you for just Knuckles alone. And you know, the fact that some aren't even bothering to consider them practically tells me "I don't care about what you think" and yet I care enough to brainstorm how to give you what you want that isn't at the expense of what I want.

Edited by Shadic Claus
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I think its less "Make the A-group the only important characters" and more "Make Knuckles apart of the A-group again, while the B-group gets their time in the limelight too."

Well how about we throw the A and B-group in the incinerator and stop putting characters into groups?

I admit, even thought I am vehement against overusing him, I do long for the time when Knuckles was the third most prominent character in the series.

I want him to be prominient not in rank, but in his character, role, and interactions; his being, so to speak. Give him a different taste that makes him more appealing for who he is that sets him apart from other characters in the same way that Shadow has his own unique appeal (that needs some serious reworking and balance, but still).

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Well how about we throw the A and B-group in the incinerator and stop putting characters into groups?

While I'm not exactly a huge fan of it myself, grouping characters does make it easier to implement who appears and who won't depending on the plot.

I want him to be prominient not in rank, but in his character, role, and interactions; his being, so to speak. Give him a different taste that makes him more appealing for who he is that sets him apart from other characters in the same way that Shadow has his own unique appeal (that needs some serious reworking and balance, but still).

Well because of his character, role, and interactions he was the third most prominent character in the series followed by Amy, Rouge, and Shadow up until Heroes.

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Unlike a Book trilogy or a film trilogy, Sonic isn't tied down to when and where to use the rather large supporting cast the franchise has developed by a fixed end point. As such characters like Knuckles need not be included in every single game because he is by some arbitrary parameter more important than other characters. Yes he became before other characters, but unlike Tails who is supposed to be Sonic's protege, Knuckles (and most of the other characters since) have other obligations and as such do not need to appear in every game.

They can rotate and appear when necessary, or whenever it feels reasonable to involve their particular obligation (ie the M.E. in Knux's case) in the central plot line.

Last thing we want is characters shoehorned into a game simply because (eg. Sonic 06 where Knux was there....just because) they are apparently important. Knux is a good character and all, but I think his character, role and occupation should all be respected here. Involving the M.E. in every game pointlessly will be boring.

I like Knux, but I don't want him around all the time because he supposedly completes the "Primary Colours Gang" or whathaveyou. Rotate him in and out with other relatively important characters like Shadow (and by extention Rouge, possibly OMEGA), the Chaotix and so on. That way the stories can be kept as fresh and new as possible, occasionally even excluding all characters except Tails.

Edited by Scar
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While I'm not exactly a huge fan of it myself, grouping characters does make it easier to implement who appears and who won't depending on the plot.

Really? Because I have an easy time doing the opposite, and I find it to be more dynamic when you don't group them like that just to maintain a status quo. It allows even more ideas and interactions than having them around because they're a trio.

Well because of his character, role, and interactions he was the third most prominent character in the series followed by Amy, Rouge, and Shadow up until Heroes.

Well let's find some other prominence he can be instead of just the third one, shall we? Most physically powerful character? Most stubborn? Most archealogical? (I completely made that last one up, that's more Prof. Pickle anyway. laugh.png)

I like Knux, but I don't want him around all the time because he supposedly completes the "Primary Colours Gang" or whathaveyou. Rotate him in and out with other relatively important characters like Shadow (and by extention Rouge, possibly OMEGA), the Chaotix and so on. That way the stories can be kept as fresh and new as possible, occasionally even excluding all characters except Tails.

Eh, I wouldn't let Tails go that easily. Okay, so it's harder not to have him around Sonic than it is for others, but if Unleashed showed anything, even he isn't immune from being a minor character.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Ahh, the problem with Long Running franchises, you eventually have no idea how to give every one of your characters a decent amount of spotlight without neglecting everyone else in the process.

Really? Because I have an easy time doing the opposite, and I find it to be more dynamic when you don't group them like that just to maintain a status quo. It allows even more ideas and interactions than having them around because they're a trio.

Well seeing how the series sticks to a certain status quo....

Well let's find some other prominence he can be instead of just the third one, shall we? Most physically powerful character? Most stubborn? Most archealogical? (I completely made that last one up laugh.png)

God I wish it was that easy.

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Ahh, the problem with Long Running franchises, you eventually have no idea how to give every one of your characters a decent amount of spotlight without neglecting everyone else in the process.

If you can't do that, I'd question your skills in literature. Okay, so it isn't exactly easy, but it isn't that hard. Or maybe it's just easy for me due to watching a number of media that happen to do it very well?

Well seeing how the series sticks to a certain status quo....

Ever thought about having it overthrown or destroyed?

God I wish it was that easy.

I came up with that in less than a minute...and that's because I had several years worth of debate to do it that fast.

See, this is why having these debates/arguments can be fun. tongue.png

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Eh, I wouldn't let Tails go that easily. Okay, so it's harder not to have him around Sonic than it is for others, but if Unleashed showed anything, even he isn't immune from being a minor character.

Oh no, I'm not against that. Tails too can sit out a game or two. He could be said to be studying at Spagonia University for a while or something. However, Tails' main gimmick is that he's Sonic's little bro, and I assume that means he'd be around most of the time.

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I think its less "Make the A-group the only important characters" and more "Make Knuckles apart of the A-group again, while the B-group gets their time in the limelight too."

Okay, so i know its lazy as fuck to just quote someone and say "this", but...

Yeah, this.

Oh okay i'll say some stuff myself as well: The series as it is now seems to present three characters as being clearly above all others in importance and prominence; Sonic, Tails and Eggman. A group of nearly-always-present, major characters. Well Knuckles used to be part of that group and i think it's dumb and sad that he isn't anymore.

And sure there are other characters who also clearly rank above the C-list critters, Amy and Shadow first and foremost due to (just like Knuckles) their history in the series. But neither of them were ever as big as Knuckles. Amy was pretty unnotable untill SA came several years after she made her debut and even then when she got promted to main character she was never quite one of those "must-be-playable" characters like Sonic, Tails and Knuckles. As for Shadow, while he practiaclly became the second main character in the main series games for a few years, he never truly became one of the always-present characters due to sitting out certain spin-off games.

Knuckles however was from his first appearance and onward (while clearly not as vital as Sonic and Eggman) as ubiquitous as Tails. He was in nearly every game, be it main series or spin-off. He was one of the front faces of the franchise.

But these days, he pretty much seems to be just another face in the sea of supporting characters, while Sonic, Eggy and Tails get's to keep being more important than everybody else. To just let one of the series former four main-main-main-characters become another background character doesn't seem right, and i see no justifiable reason for it at all.

EDIT: Oh great, i go to the can for a while in the middle of writing this post and now there is a whole bunch of other posts that i should possibly have taken into consideration before posting. Oh well whatever.

Edited by batson
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And why not be moderate and not put him in every game?

It's not about putting him in every game. It's never been about putting him in every game.

Where is line drawn between using the character "in moderation" and just ignoring them entirely? It's been almost six years.

Edited by Chooch
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It's not about putting him in every game. It's never been about putting him in every game.

But that's EXACTLY what batson just said.

I'll quote and highlight...

Well then they should just make the master emerald relevant in pretty much every game again and then everything will be solved and Knuckles can go back to the series A-group, among Sonic, Tails and Eggman, where he belongs.

Where is line drawn between using the character "in moderation" and just ignoring them entirely? It's been almost six years.

Hey that's more the fault of the "Sonic-only" brigade.

If you want my opinion? I'd say the line between using a character in moderation and ignoring them is that they end up using the character after no less than one but no more than 3.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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If you can't do that, I'd question your skills in literature. Okay, so it isn't exactly easy, but it isn't that hard. Or maybe it's just easy for me due to watching a number of media that happen to do it very well?

That's just it though, the series isn't exactly known for its masterful writing, and considering more focus is on the gameplay than what characters to use, it gets pretty apparent that they have no idea what to do with everybody, and it shows. This is probably why series like Mario only have 2-4 characters that relevant in the entire series and any additional character is a one shot used only for spin offs.

Ever thought about having it overthrown or destroyed?

I wouldn't mind.

I came up with that in less than a minute...and that's because I had several years worth of debate to do it that fast.

See, this is why having these debates/arguments can be fun. tongue.png

They can also be annoying as hell when trying to come up with a solution.

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That's just it though, the series isn't exactly known for its masterful writing, and considering more focus is on the gameplay than what characters to use, it gets pretty apparent that they have no idea what to do with everybody, and it shows.

Well then we need someone from Bioware to help with making the writing at least good. Granted, I have a bit of a bone to pick with how they did Chronicles, but they did a fairly good job when in the characterization for the most part.

This is probably why series like Mario only have 2-4 characters that relevant in the entire series and any additional character is a one shot used only for spin offs.

Yeah, I dislike that when they do that. All that material they have and they usually just throw it away the next game or throw a bone and expect that to be enough.

They can also be annoying as hell when trying to come up with a solution.

Eh, when you've done it as long as I have, you get used to it and end up making even more solutions.

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But that's EXACTLY what batson just said.

Oh but i said "pretty much every game". You see? They should but Knuckles in "pretty much" every game. Just like they used to.

There was nothing wrong with that before and there wouldn't be anything wrong with that if they started doing it again.

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Oh okay i'll say some stuff myself as well: The series as it is now seems to present three characters as being clearly above all others in importance and prominence; Sonic, Tails and Eggman. A group of nearly-always-present, major characters. Well Knuckles used to be part of that group and i think it's dumb and sad that he isn't anymore.

And sure there are other characters who also clearly rank above the C-list critters, Amy and Shadow first and foremost due to (just like Knuckles) their history in the series. But neither of them were ever as big as Knuckles. Amy was pretty unnotable untill SA came several years after she made her debut and even then when she got promted to main character she was never quite one of those "must-be-playable" characters like Sonic, Tails and Knuckles. As for Shadow, while he practiaclly became the second main character in the main series games for a few years, he never truly became one of the always-present characters due to sitting out certain spin-off games.

Knuckles however was from his first appearance and onward (while clearly not as vital as Sonic and Eggman) as ubiquitous as Tails. He was in nearly every game, be it main series or spin-off. He was one of the front faces of the franchise.

But these days, he pretty much seems to be just another face in the sea of supporting characters, while Sonic, Eggy and Tails get's to keep being more important than everybody else. To just let one of the series former four main-main-main-characters become another background character doesn't seem right, and i see no justifiable reason for it at all.

EDIT: Oh great, i go to the can for a while in the middle of writing this post and now there is a whole bunch of other posts that i should possibly have taken into consideration before posting. Oh well whatever.

Yes and no. Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles were indeed the most prominent characters in the series for a while, but that' back before the series had as big a cast as it does now. In Sonic Adventure, Amy became more prominent along with Gamma, and Big, as prominent as the big three obviously and afterwards Amy essentially became the fourth main character after Knuckles. Then Sonic Adventure 2 came out and Shadow & Rouge became more prominent in addition to the aforementioned quartet, and unlike Big & Gamma stayed prominent for a few years. Then Heroes reintroduced the Chaotix and introduced Omega making them playable characters along side the other six, and so on and so on.

The bottom line is, the classic trio, while having high importance in this series, just aren't the only prominent characters the series has to offer anymore. Yeah sure, some people may prefer them to everyone else, but that doesn't change the fact that everyone else has had just as much, and sometimes more, importance than those three; so I fail to see why Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles should be more focused on than everyone else when everyone has contributed something to the series?

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Oh but i said "pretty much every game". You see? They should but Knuckles in "pretty much" every game. Just like they used to.

Eh, semantics. Gotta love 'em.

There was nothing wrong with that before and there wouldn't be anything wrong with that if they started doing it again.

Except the risk of getting stale if all your doing is just putting it into the plot just to have Knuckles around?

The same staleness that hit Shadow when people thought he was taking over too much? The same staleness that led to people getting out right sick and tired of the "Monster of the Week" and had Sonic Team playing around with it in more dynamic ways than they did in the past? The same staleness that led to many getting sick of only playing Super Sonic at the end of the game instead whenever they have 50 rings? The same staleness that led to a number of us here getting sick and tired of "Sonic-only" and want to play as other characters?

And the same staleness that is making me bring this very detail to your attention so that you can brainstorm a way to avoid it for the character?

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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What if.

Like... uhm.

Knuckles builds a second Hidden Palace.

And Tails and GUN work together or something to, like...

Build a cloaking device around it so Eggman can't track it.

And... er...

Knuckles keeps it there. Yeah.

Whenever Eggman does really bad stuff, like enslaving life and whatnot... Sonic or Tails give him a call or something if they need help...

... then he shows up to kick some butt...

...and when he isn't, he stays on Angel Island chilling around, doing extra guard duty, studing his lost culture and eating grapes.

Or something.

idk

Edited by Indigo Rush
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What if.

Like... uhm.

Knuckles builds a second Hidden Palace.

And Tails and GUN work together or something to, like...

Build a cloaking device around it so Eggman can't track it.

And... er...

Knuckles keeps it there. Yeah.

Whenever Eggman does really bad stuff, like enslaving life and whatnot... Sonic or Tails give him a call or something if they need help...

... then he shows up to kick some butt...

...and when he isn't, he stays on Angel Island chilling around, doing extra guard duty, and eating grapes.

Or something.

idk

Better idea. What if Sonic Team decided to retcon Sonic Chronicles and make it canon, therefore bringing Shade as another potential character we can use, and give us an additional villian in the form of Imperator Ix and the Nocturnus clan?

That way, we have even more was to have Knuckles around! You guys wanted someone else to guard the Master Emerald while Knuckles is away? Shade can keep watch. You guys want more development to Knuckles? The Nocturnus Clan is a remnant faction of his ancient past, and would likely involve him if they ever attacked; it's essentially Knuckles version of Sonic's Eggman.

Anyone c what I did thar?

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Better idea. What if Sonic Team decided to retcon Sonic Chronicles and make it canon, therefore bringing Shade as another potential character we can use, and give us an additional villian in the form of Imperator Ix and the Nocturnus clan?

That way, we have even more was to have Knuckles around! You guys wanted someone else to guard the Master Emerald while Knuckles is away? Shade can keep watch. You guys want more development to Knuckles? The Nocturnus Clan is a remnant faction of his ancient past, and would likely involve him if they ever attacked. And that's just ONE thing we can use them for; there are several ways they could be used.

Anyone c what I did thar?

But well say we didn't want Chronicles.

Then my idea is ok?

Yay.

(I'm not against your idea or Shade as a character, just saying since it ain't canon and probably won't ever be...)

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But well say we didn't want Chronicles.

Then my idea is ok?

Yay.

If you want to make it more difficult for yourself, go right on ahead. I just gave you a really quick shortcut to the gold, yet you decided to take a longer path.

(I'm not against your idea or Shade as a character, just saying since it ain't canon and probably won't ever be...)

Eh, we got a Sonic 4 and a Classic Sonic in Generations and we thought that would never happen. If people can yell for that and get it, we can find a way to do the same for Chronicles...but I'm just making this look easier said than done. I'm not expecting it anytime soon myself, but I am giving an idea that can make this a whole lot easier.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Better idea. What if Sonic Team decided to retcon Sonic Chronicles and make it canon, therefore bringing Shade as another potential character we can use, and give us an additional villian in the form of Imperator Ix and the Nocturnus clan?

That way, we have even more was to have Knuckles around! You guys wanted someone else to guard the Master Emerald while Knuckles is away? Shade can keep watch. You guys want more development to Knuckles? The Nocturnus Clan is a remnant faction of his ancient past, and would likely involve him if they ever attacked; it's essentially Knuckles version of Sonic's Eggman.

Anyone c what I did thar?

Or, Or Or. Eggman(or some other baddie) goes after the Chaos Emeralds in every game(Because let's face it, its something we expect at this point), and then halfway through the game, Knuckles shows up because he feels some mystical shit is going down and tries to stop it.

See this way, its less contrived because the Chaos Emeralds have always been the center of conflict in the series and Knuckles is already closely tied to them, so it makes perfect sense and you can add any additional group of characters to the mix, it works out so well.

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Or reintroduce Shade in a new way.

in Sonic Adventure thre- *dead*

I don't know how it's more complicated though. It's as simple as Knuckles making another temple, having some tech around it to keep it untrackable when he's away, and he shows up when he's needed.

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Except getting stale if all your doing is just putting it into the plot just to have Knuckles around?

To be honest, that whole idea about making the master emerald important in nearly every game isn't really something i feel strongly about. The master emerald can be there or not, i dont really care. As far as i am concerned the main series games can just do what the spin-off's have been doing ever since Knuckles was introduced and just have Knuckles appear without the emerald even being mentioned (*puts on flame-shield, zoinks!*). I mean do we really have to go by the notion that the guy should litteraly NEVER, like NEVER EVER, leave that damn shrine unless it's for either emerald-related reasons or worldwide catastrophes?

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Or, Or Or. Eggman(or some other baddie) goes after the Chaos Emeralds in every game(Because let's face it, its something we expect at this point), and then halfway through the game, Knuckles shows up because he feels some mystical shit is going down and tries to stop it.

Connect the mystical shit to the Master Emerald, and you got yourself a deal for a number of games. cool.png

I still want mah damn Shade and Ix, tho.

Or reintroduce Shade in a new way.

in Sonic Adventure thre- *dead*

*Spartan Laser*

No! That's a BAD Indigo! No!

I don't know how it's more complicated though. It's as simple as Knuckles making another temple, having some tech around it to keep it untrackable when he's away, and he shows up when he's needed.

I'll put it like this, having Shade makes it easier for Knuckles to be around whenever and very little questions asked, and Chronicles already did most of the work for us in regards to using the characters without us having to start from scratch here. We just need to make that more a part main series and more bigger...and cleaning up the other mess that's unrelated to the games that was added there, like the Swatbots. (although that was a cool design for them).

I mean do we really have to go by the notion that the guy should litteraly NEVER, like NEVER EVER, leave that damn shrine unless it's for either emerald-related reasons or worldwide catastrophes?

If people are going to be question why this one character they don't like is around and and bitch about why shouldn't be? Hell yeah, I'm gonna go by that notion. And I'm gonna be even more of a dick about it and do that for any other character who has similar restrictions.

It be easier if people let my have my Shadow or Blaze and I won't complain about them getting their Knuckles, but nooooo~! tongue.png

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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To be honest, that whole idea about making the master emerald important in nearly every game isn't really something i feel strongly about. The master emerald can be there or not, i dont really care. As far as i am concerned the main series games can just do what the spin-off's have been doing ever since Knuckles was introduced and just have Knuckles appear without the emerald even being mentioned (*puts on flame-shield, zoinks!*). I mean do we really have to go by the notion that the guy should litteraly NEVER, like NEVER EVER, leave that damn shrine unless it's for either emerald-related reasons or worldwide catastrophes?

Well considering his motivations and goal is to protect the damn thing, then yes.

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