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The Knuckles Topic - Is monkey a Knuckles-butt?


Indigo Rush

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What if Sonic Team decided to retcon Sonic Chronicles and make it canon
I would barf.

Dio's Perfect Knuckles Solution:

1. Write some plots where Knuckles is specifically relevant (plots related to the Master Emerald, plots related to echidnas, plots where the island is involved, etc)

2. Establish that the Master Emerald is reasonably safe even when Knuckles is not actively guarding it. Hint at booby traps, move it to a more secure-looking location, etc

3. Try to make Knuckles' appearance in the game relevant and believable, even when he is not explicitly required. Perhaps have Sonic or Tails call Knuckles for help. Perhaps have them cross paths while Knuckles is treasure hunting.

4. Consider simply not putting Knuckles in this game. He doesn't need to be in every game. It's okay to not have him sometimes.

5. By this point you can probably fill a decade's worth of major games with relevant and character-stabilizing Knuckles appearances (or non-appearances). It is probably safe to be lazy once or twice and insert him "just because", as long as the previous points are maintained for the majority of games.

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Connect the mystical shit to the Master Emerald, and you got yourself a deal for a number of games. cool.png

Or even better, and indefinite amount of games.

I still want mah damn Shade and Ix, tho.

Only if they're actually interesting and serve a purpose, I'm not too fond of introducing additional characters for the sake of it.

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I would barf.

Here's a barfbag. You want some fries with that? tongue.png

Or even better, and indefinite amount of games.

If you can make it last that long.

Only if they're actually interesting and serve a purpose, I'm not too fond of introducing additional characters for the sake of it.

That's why I wanted them retconned, because I know how bland Shade was in that game. I still want her around, and I want her to be fixed.

And while I can understand that for Shade, how would Ix not serve a purpose? He'd obviously be an antagonist. He'd expand the number of villians by one, he can go in a kind of "corporate warfare" sabotaging Eggman's plans while furthering his own (and vice versa), and he could come up with a number of ways to try to conquer the world different from Eggman.

Eggman tends to go the more grand and showboating route; Ix could go the sleek and efficient route. I mean really, what's holding Ix back (aside from being non-canon). Besides, you ever thought about making them interesting and serve a purpose?

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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If you can make it last that long.

Only their writing can stop them, then again it is Sonic Team, the kings of inconsistency.

That's why I wanted them retconned, because I know how bland Shade was in that game. I still want her around, and I want her to be fixed.

And while I can understand that for Shade, how would Ix not serve a purpose? He'd obviously be an antagonist. He'd expand the number of villians by one, he can go in a kind of "corporate warfare" sabotaging Eggman's plans while furthering his own (and vice versa), and he could come up with a number of ways to try to conquer the world different from Eggman.

Eggman tends to go the more grand and showboating route; Ix could go the sleek and efficient route. I mean really, what's holding Ix back (aside from being non-canon).

That was mainly directed towards Shade, Ix is ok I guess, just needs to be more interesting.

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Well considering his motivations and goal is to protect the damn thing, then yes.

But at this point i think it's pretty much a canonical fact that Knuckles does indeed leave his island to go do other shit once in a while. All those random adventures with Sonic and co, all those participations in racing turnaments, showing up at Sonic's birthday, ect ect ect ect. All those things that have canonically happened, regardless of how much some people may hate it, firmly says; "Knuckles sometimes leaves his island even when the master emerald has nothing to do with it".

So with this in mind, making it so that Knuckles never willingly leaves his island unless he it's for "ZOMG MAH EMERELD IS IN DEEP SHITZ!" or "ZOMG TEH WORLD IS IN DEEP SHITZ!" would in fact be a retcon.

Well whaddaya know, iv'e honestly never thought about it this way before, but it seems to me like in this argument i am in fact, as they say "armed with canon"! :P

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You want to go about the series canon? The only things that are canon by Word of God (AAUK) are:

  • Sonic 1-4
  • Sonic Adventure 1&2
  • Sonic Heroes
  • Shadow the Hedgehog
  • Sonic 06
  • Sonic Unleashed
  • Sonic Colors
  • And Sonic Generations

    The things that might be canon are:

    • Sonic Rivals
    • Sonic Storybooks?

    I could make that excuse you did for any character if I wanted too. That's like saying it's canon for Bowser to go go-karting with Princess Peach and his nemesis Mario, or that it's canon for Sonic and Mario to play in the Olympics even with characters who probably should even canonically be around to play in them. Unless you accept THAT as canon, in which case, nevermind.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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The things that might be canon are:
  • Sonic Storybooks?

SatSR is mentioned in Generations, so I'd give that a definite "yes".
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SatSR is mentioned in Generations, so I'd give that a definite "yes".

Speaking of which, I forgot to add the Rushes...where would that fall under? A definite "yes", no?

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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I could make that excuse you did for any character if I wanted too. That's like saying it's canon for Bowser to go go-karting with Princess Peach and his nemesis Mario, or that it's canon for Sonic and Mario to play in the Olympics even with characters who probably should even canonically be around to play in them. Unless you accept THAT as canon, in which case, nevermind.

To be fair, I think its universally established and accepted that Bowser isn't really evil, just selfish and more of a big bully and does what he does out of an unrequited crush on Peach, so its not hard to assume Knuckles does indeed leave his island occasionally, like Dio said they just need to establish that the island is safe and that Knuckles is just taking a break or out running errands or some shit.

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I take it you forgot about Mario Galaxy?

Either way you want to put it, Bowser is still an evil character. He may not be the biggest evil, but he is still evil enough to be the bad guy he is portrayed as. Heck, Eggman falls under the same case, yet that doesn't stop him from shattering the world.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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I'd consider the Rush games as good as canon. Water Palace appears in the 3DS version of Sonic Generations after all. As for the Advance games, I think they're inconsequential for the most part. With the exception of Cream's introduction, none of the Advance games really make a big mark on the series mythos.

Sonic Rush on the other hand does a little more than the previous handhelds: they introduce a whole new set of emeralds, Rush and it's sequel introduce about 3 new characters that are considered canon, and bring a whole other dimension to the table.

The way I see it is if a character has a Sonic Channel bio, the game they debuted can be considered canon. This would make Sonic Riders and Sonic Battle canon as well, consequently.

Edited by Indigo Rush
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Seriously, how freaking hard is it to make a plot that uses the Master Emerald in it or a very serious threat which ends up elevating the stakes to where it is more than justified for him (and other characters) to be around? Why give Knuckles all this preferential treatment when other characters can be just as effective (or even more in certain cases) for the plot? It's not like I'm asking for a Sonic version of Mass Effect (and even that was pretty damn simple when they did just that in Chronicles).

I would rather his involvement have more substance than "Knuckles shrunk the ME and is carrying it to hang with Sonic, but then he got hit and dropped it" or "Knuckles is carrying the ME, so don't worry about it and let him help". Because honestly, people ask the similar questions (or more absurd ones) when every other character happens to be around and give them a pass or fail depending on how they contribute, I don't see any solid reason why Knuckles should be an exception.

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I2. Establish that the Master Emerald is reasonably safe even when Knuckles is not actively guarding it. Hint at booby traps, move it to a more secure-looking location, etc

Having the Master Emerald hidden within a maze of traps opens up a lot of potential for creative design as well. It would be interesting to see what they could come up with. Speaking of which, I'd like to see another game set in unseen/redesigned parts of Angel Island (in the sky). An appropriate (and easily traversable) hub world with a real sense of scale would be splendid, and of course, would inevitably involve everyone's favourite echidna.

*Like that scene where Amy convinced Shadow to help save the earth, She doesn't have anything to do with Maria and Amy Rose had never been set up as a sympathetic character in the same way as Maria. I guess that last part doesn't matter, because it's not like they really set up Maria to be a sympathetic character very well. They had that scene where she wants to go to earth and her nonspecific wish for Shadow to help people. All she really did was get Shadow over his amnesia. See? It just happens.

It is very convenient and I can't deny that my reaction was along lines of 'Whut?' when he suddenly changed his mind. However the story had already suggested that he associates females in general with Maria, as he rescued Rouge from blowing up along with Prison Island after having one his Maria flashbacks. Granted, unlike Rouge, Amy wasn't in physical danger, but they would have all died had the colony crashed into the Earth as originally planned.

I don't deny that the story wasn't exactly well told, though.

Edited by Lungo
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A little late for the game here, but yeah, Riders and Battle, probably canon, and Rush, totally canon. In which Knuckles did show up just for shitz 'n' giggles.

So in conclusion: Knuckles + saying "bye emerald, i'm goin' out for a while!" = canon. Just sayin.

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If I was writing the story I wouldn't want to make the Master Emerald a big deal in it again because it's pretty played out. Depending on what chronology you subscribe to, it was a major plot device in three sequential games (Twice in one of them!), we've seen what its purpose is, we've seen what other things it's been used for, basically I don't want the story to be that someone stole/broke the ME again. At this point it seems to make more sense to me for a plot that involves Knuckles to actually involve Knuckles and not just involve the ME and then that drags Knuckles in. I guess whatever draws him off could involve it, but then it turns out to be a ruse to lure him somewhere.

I don't think being played out is a good excuse when we have Chaos Emeralds which go from powering death machines to sealing demons and bringing people back to life (as overpowered as that is). The ME still being as powerful as those things are, there's much more you can do with it. Basically if the Chaos Emeralds can do more than what they started with, so can the Master Emerald.

And you could possibly end up missing out on some fun story elements you could use it for.

As for preferential treatment, it basically just boils down to ideas I have for Knuckles's gameplay. "Float like a butterfly, Sting like a bee." I imagine you know why that would work best with Knuckles, sort of a floaty version of Sonic who can "lash out" with punches that can also carry him. The way ACs move in the Armored Core V demo kind of reminds me of it.

I can understand that much...

The reason why I prefer to basically ignore the stories of the Adventure games is that A: any discussion of Adventure 2's plot leads me into some kind of rant on how a massive part of the plot makes no sense logically and doesn't work thematically*, and B: They're poorly thought out and don't really have enough merit to be worth sorting out. I lump what plot there is in Heroes in for being just as simultaneously bland and annoying and Shadow for following up on the same plot.

So then it's not really a matter of preferential treatment. It doesn't matter the character, you just don't care regardless. Heh, fine by me. Not much to argue with you about that anytime in the future then.

A little late for the game here, but yeah, Riders and Battle, probably canon, and Rush, totally canon. In which Knuckles did show up just for shitz 'n' giggles.

So in conclusion: Knuckles + saying "bye emerald, i'm goin' out for a while!" = canon. Just sayin.

Actually, in Rush, Knuckles wasn't going "bye emerald, I'm going out for while!" or for shitz'n'giggles he was going after someone who he assumed attacked him for no reason while guarding it. Totally independent from hanging around Sonic and Tails just because he wanted to, because he wasn't doing anything for them in the first place. A far cry from just being around in places like Soleanna where he was conveniently in the area to deliver Eggman's message to Sonic.

Rider's only gets a free pass because, like Generations after it, it throws in characters who have even less of a reason to be there than Knuckles, like Silver and Blaze.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Honestly, it made no sense why Knuckles, Rouge, Shadow, GUN, or the Chaotix got involved. Eggman just blew up the world into several pieces, you'd think that would be major enough to make others wonder what the hell happened and do something about it.

Because Sonic Team finally realized that ignoring extraneous characters not directly important to the story/your role as Sonic actually makes for a more streamlined and well-told story. With what duties Sonic was charged with carrying out to fix the planet, what could any of those characters possibly contributed? This isn't a "oh let's theoretically change details to make that possible" question, that's a "based on how the game already is, how could that be done without feeling unnecessary" rhetorical question. I see no way it could have been done without feeling that way.

Also, you're quite impassioned about Knuckles. So much cursing. mellow.png I enjoy Knuckles as a character very much myself, but I'm with the other few, more passive people in this thread who would rather just see what they do with Knuckles as opposed to being vehemently for or against him appearing. I can't say their use of Knuckles would be shoehorned into the story until I actually see them use him in a major story-based title.

Edited by NeutralChao
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Because Sonic Team finally realized that ignoring extraneous characters not directly important to the story/your role as Sonic actually makes for a more streamlined and well-told story.

The number of characters is not what makes the story cumbersome or streamlined, it's ALL the story elements in the plot that make it less streamlined and poorly-told; not just the who (characters), but the what (actions), when (moment of time), where (setting), why (reasoning), and how (explainations).

And here are some examples that'll show you otherwise: Heroes has the largest use of the characters throughout this franchises life, and yet that story was so streamlined it was bare-bones. That unfortunately, didn't make it a very good story. ShTH focused on just one character, and everyone else were supporting characters, and that plot was one of the most complex in this series; THAT wasn't a very well told story either. Sonic 06 used more than ShTH did, but less than Heroes and it delievered a plot that was so convoluted it's almost a good thing it restarted itself at the end, and yet that wasn't a good plot either.

In short:

Less characters =/= streamlined and well-told

More characters =/= complex and poorly-told

There are quite a number of fiction that can be streamlined and well-told if they had 4 or 14 characters they're focusing on, so that's no excuse for Sonic's case.

With what duties Sonic was charged with carrying out to fix the planet, what could any of those characters possibly contributed?

Like help fight Dark Gaia's Minions and Eggman's Robots? That's a pretty obvious one.

Or help Sonic discover other ways to reach the Gaia Temples to reach them?

Or help make it easier for Sonic to navigate the deathtrap that is Eggmanland?

And that's just off the top of my head.

This isn't a "oh let's theoretically change details to make that possible" question, that's a "based on how the game already is, how could that be done without feeling unnecessary" rhetorical question. I see no way it could have been done without feeling that way.

Actually, yes it is an "oh let's theoretically change details to make that possible". That's one of the reasons this topic was made in the first place!

Also, you're quite impassioned about Knuckles. So much cursing. mellow.png

As I've said to everyone else: if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. The most I won't do is insult you unless you really deserve it, as many can vouch for.

I can't say their use of Knuckles would be shoehorned into the story until I actually see them use him in a major story-based title.

Sonic 06. That's one. He was one of the characters who did very little in the game.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Heroes has the largest use of the characters throughout this franchises life, and yet that story was so streamlined it was bare-bones.
I wouldn't call it streamlined so much as nonexistent. The large cast doesn't get in the way of the story because, for the most part, there isn't one; it's just, some things happen, Metal Sonic does some things, everyone ends up on the Egg Fleet, and then they fight Metal Sonic.

Compare to Unleashed, where there's actually a running storyline throughout the game, and most scenes actually serve a purpose. If you add in a bunch of other characters, even in the best case you end up diluting the story. It takes focus off the core characters and issues if someone new pops into the story every few levels.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to tell a good and tightly-written story with a larger cast, but leaving out characters that are not necessary to the story ("necessary" in the sense of communicating what you want to communicate, not just who is physically required for the events to unfold) is an important part of writing a good and tightly-written story.

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The number of characters is not what makes the story cumbersome or streamlined, it's ALL the story elements in the plot that make it less streamlined and poorly-told; not just the who (characters), but the what (actions), when (moment of time), where (setting), why (reasoning), and how (explainations).

I wasn't generalizing, I was talking about how Sonic Team constantly misuses characters by making them unessential to the plot.

And here are some examples that show otherwise: Heroes has the largest use of the characters throughout this franchises life, and yet that story was so streamlined it was bare-bones. That unfortunately, didn't make it a very good story. ShTH focused on just one character, and everyone else were supporting characters, and that plot was one of the most complex in this series; THAT wasn't a very well told story either. Sonic 06 used more than ShTH did, but less than Heroes and it delievered a plot that was so convoluted it's almost a good thing it restarted itself at the end, and yet that wasn't a good plot either.

In short:

Less characters =/= streamlined and well-told

More characters =/= complex and poorly-told

There are quite a number of fiction that can be streamlined and well-told if they had 4 or 14 characters they're focusing on, so that's no excuse for Sonic's case.

It doesn't matter how many characters there are, I never specified the amount. I said "extraneous." This means extra, unnecessary characters, regardless of how low or high the numbers of them go.

Like help fight Dark Gaia's Minions and Eggman's Robots? That's a pretty obvious one.

Or help Sonic discover other ways to reach the Gaia Temples to reach them?

Or help make it easier for Sonic to navigate the deathtrap that is Eggmanland?

And that's just off the top of my head.

This is exactly what I mean. I was not aware that Sonic needed help in accomplishing any of these tasks in the game. Because he didn't.

Actually, yes it is an "oh let's theoretically change details to make that possible". That's one of the reasons this topic was made in the first place!

It is assumed that for the characters to not be seen as unnecessary, then already-existing details really shouldn't be changed. That whatever they contribute should stand on their own as an additional, not altered, part of the story. If it was done well the first time, why have 2, 3 or 4 more characters try to jump in and help do the same task.

As I've said to everyone else: if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. The most I won't do is insult you unless you really deserve it, as many can vouch for.

I'm sorry to say, I'm not shaking in my boots over your schoolyard cursing. I was merely pointing out how silly your posts sound when they are full of cursing over something as un-serious as Sonic plot, characters and what have you.

Sonic 06. That's one. He was one of the characters who did very little in the game.

This one I will give you. I should have specified, my mistake. I meant to say, "Until I actually see them use him in a new major story-based title."

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I wouldn't call it streamlined so much as nonexistent. The large cast doesn't get in the way of the story because, for the most part, there isn't one; it's just, some things happen, Metal Sonic does some things, everyone ends up on the Egg Fleet, and then they fight Metal Sonic.

I think that's being a little harsh to call it nonexistent, but that doesn't change how it was organized.

Compare to Unleashed, where there's actually a running storyline throughout the game, and most scenes actually serve a purpose. If you add in a bunch of other characters, even in the best case you end up diluting the story. It takes focus off the core characters and issues if someone new pops into the story every few levels.

I doubt that's the best case, because that depends on how much focus is given to them. I'm reading this as if giving focus to other characters who appear is a bad thing, and I'm sure that's not what you're trying to say.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to tell a good and tightly-written story with a larger cast, but leaving out characters that are not necessary to the story ("necessary" in the sense of communicating what you want to communicate, not just who is physically required for the events to unfold) is an important part of writing a good and tightly-written story.

Which isn't really any different from what I'm saying, that more or less, it's really how you write and use them. And if Heroes is any example, more characters didn't really dilute anything when there was barely anything going into it.

I wasn't generalizing, I was talking about how Sonic Team constantly misuses characters by making them unessential to the plot.

Yeah, tell me about it. It's been like that since Heroes, only since Colors have they gotten their act together.

It doesn't matter how many characters there are, I never specified the amount. I said "extraneous." This means extra, unnecessary characters, regardless of how low or high the numbers of them go.

Okay, I see we're in agreement here.

This is exactly what I mean. I was not aware that Sonic needed help in accomplishing any of these tasks in the game. Because he didn't.

He actually did if you want to be specific about it. Needed help in understanding what was going on by finding Prof. Pickle to explain the Gaia Manuscripts, needed Tails to fly him to places where he needed to go (well to Spagonia, Mazuri, and Eggmanland from what we know), he needed Chips help to fight Dark Gaia.

Not saying I would hate the plot if it didn't have the other characters, but I do like the thought of knowing what more could be done for it had they been involved.

It is assumed that for the characters to not be seen as unnecessary, then already-existing details really shouldn't be changed. That whatever they contribute should stand on their own as an additional, not altered, part of the story. If it was done well the first time, why have 2, 3 or 4 more characters try to jump in and help do the same task.

To make it more dynamic and entertaining?

I'm sorry to say, I'm not shaking in my boots over your schoolyard cursing. I was merely pointing out how silly your posts sound when they are full of cursing over something as un-serious as Sonic plot, characters and what have you.

"schoolyard"?

Dude, show some respect. I'm not the only one who cusses here. Some do it far more than me, but that doesn't weaken our points and make us sound silly. We couldn't care less how more or less anyone cusses. This style over substance fallacy in calling my posts silly just for saying "hell," "damn," and "ass" at the very most is just being being trivial.

And being un-serious doesn't matter. We have a forum here, and debating about it, with or without swearwords, jokes, and the likes, is what we use it for. Otherwise, what's the point in having one?

This one I will give you. I should have specified, my mistake. I meant to say, "Until I actually see them use him in a new major story-based title."

Eh, we have yet to see that happen then.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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I think that's being a little harsh to call it nonexistent, but that doesn't change how it was organized.
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It's not disrespectful to find cursing over something so un-serious a funny thing. We're all passionate about Sonic and I understand it doesn't matter how we say that. It's still funny to me! Especially when you said "if you can't take the heat." Oh, come now. wink.png

But anyway, it seems we do agree on a number of points. I still do disagree with you on saying it would be more "dynamic and entertaining" with more characters helping. That's entirely subjective and completely dependent on the number of elements you mentioned at the beginning of your first reply to me. What Sonic Team is gradually learning now is that you CAN'T just throw in a bunch of characters without proper planning and have it be "dynamic and entertaining." I'm not completely against more characters showing up, as long as it's done cohesively and with strong, relevant purpose that doesn't contradict or end up diluting the story or the purpose of a scene. To bring things back on topic, that's including Knuckles! I'm sure anyone can agree with that.

Edited by NeutralChao
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Incredibly poorly?

Eh, better.

And if that amount is nonzero (which, if they are in the game, it is, by definition), then they are diluting it.

Um...is that the case for every plot where they have a degree of focus, or no?

I'm saying it can be a bad thing. Sometimes a story is better for not having a character appear, and for using the time and attention that would have gone into that to further something that is more important to the story. Like, in Unleashed, the main points of the story are the world-fixing adventure itself, Sonic's transformation, Chip's amnesia, and his growing friendship with Sonic. The other characters in the game exist largely to serve those points; Eggman is the villain of the adventure, Tails and Prof Pickle provide support and guidance, and Amy's brief relevance is used to explore Sonic's feelings about his transformation. If any other characters were to appear, and weren't sufficiently supporting those core points, then they would be detracting from them, and the story would be better without them.

You say that like I would just throw them in without giving them something to help in supporting those elements. That's really no different from what I've been saying for a long time. And with that being the case, I wouldn't blatantly contradict or disregard those core points of the story.

It's not disrespectful to find cursing over something so un-serious a funny thing.

Calling it "schoolyard" sounded very disrespectful to me.

We're all passionate about Sonic and I understand it doesn't matter how we say that. It's still funny to me! Especially when you said "if you can't take the heat." Oh, come now. wink.png

That was for me using swearwords, not disrespecting someone for their manner of speech. I usually assume that when someone calls that out, they seem to have a problem with it.

But anyway, it seems we do agree on a number of points. I still do disagree with you on saying it would be more "dynamic and entertaining" with more characters helping. That's entirely subjective and completely dependent on the number of elements you mentioned at the beginning of your first reply to me. What Sonic Team is gradually learning now is that you CAN'T just throw in a bunch of characters without proper planning and have it be "dynamic and entertaining." I'm not completely against more characters showing up, as long as it's done cohesively and with strong, relevant purpose that doesn't contradict or end up diluting the story or the purpose of a scene. To bring things back on topic, that's including Knuckles! I'm sure anyone can agree with that.

That's been my whole point since 2009 when I first began instigating this discussion.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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Well, then I apologize for offending you. tongue.png Wasn't meant to be offensive, I have no issue here.

Well, I guess this topic will just keep going and going and going..

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Um...is that the case for every plot where they have a degree of focus, or no?
In so much as having multiple points will cause them to dilute each other, yes. I think the key is to focus on a fairly small number of points, ideally with some degree of synergy (like how trying to help Chip regain his memories is part of how he and Sonic become friends).

You say that like I would just throw them in without giving them something to help in supporting those elements.
No, I'm saying that sometimes, even if you would do it well, the better choice is to not do it. Keep focus on the central point(s) of the story, don't risk cluttering it even if the additions are good taken on their own.

I keep focusing on Unleashed because the Sonic and Chip relationship point is kind of an intimate one. Like, if you compare to Rush, the friendship-relevant point there is "Hey Blaze look at all these friends you could be having!", so sticking Amy and Knuckles in where they are not otherwise necessary makes sense; it contrasts Blaze's closed off personality and loner nature with Sonic's open personality and how he's got all these people around him (and were it a console game, rather than a small-scale handheld, it would probably be to the story's benefit to include even more "unnecessary" characters). But in Unleashed the point is the one friendship, and having other friends popping in would take away time and emphasis from it, regardless of how well they were written. It's the same reason Sonic and Tails' relationship is pushed to the background; in spite of people's complaints, there is a valid reason for it.

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