S3&K on Steroids?

[Chaos Walker]

Ever heard the term "Cash in"? Hahahahahaha.

So people are constantly whining for remakes/HD ports of old Sonic games, particularly 3&K since it was well designed, polished, and rather long. And this makes sense: A game is awsome? What if it was MORE awsome?! That's the basic reasoning behind these kinds of demands and I can't say I don't have those feelings like... every week.

Let's assume for a moment that some team over there decided it was indeed time to bring back the beloved classic on modern consoles. Now I'm going to make the following assumption: We want gameplay in tact. Handling and layout EXACTLY like the original. Nobody wants the risk of Sonic 4 physics or worse yet, bad 3D level design. Basicaly, grabbing the game by it's quills and dragging it into HD glory. Of course, upgraded graphics and music arn't the ONLY thing this game could get. Allow me to present to you two re-release games that did some things right.

>Metroid Prime Trilogy (WII)>Added Medals _{(achievements)}cough

>Megaman the Wily Wars(Genesis)>Upgraded graphics, music, and added extra levels where you could use any power from all 3 first megaman games.

Now that's ONLY two games and you can allready see how those things might greatly increase the worth of an HD port. So after all that, here's the topic: What extra features do you want in an HD port/remake of Sonic 3 and Knuckles? What would make it that much more worthy of your purchase? If you think that another classic like Sonic 2 is more deserving of an HD port, with old levels added in and whatever else you can cook up in your head, I ask that you please refrain from doing it here and start a topic devoted to that.

Now to get the ball rolling, how about I get a few things down:

1. Fix up that Mulitiplayer. It was definetly the most lacking part of the game, and I don't think anybody really used it. That's one thing in there that actually kind of sucked, and may very well need a revamp. No more downscaled sprites, and no more silly/confusing laps. More stages? Online? Just a few ideas.

2. A boss gauntlet mode. It's a simple idea used in alot of games but it's still awsome, right?

3. Time attack mode. Just like in CD, the ability to replay any level you allready completed, and have the time recorded. This may even be a good place to include online connectivity for leader boards.

4. Missions. Going back into previous levels with a different goal in mind. Such as: Get a 100 rings. It adds alot of optional replay value, and in this case I think it would be welcome seeing as the game is allready solid.

5. Chao gar*SHOT* _{(ok... I'm probably the only one who would want that.)}

That's just a few. Get creative. Get demanding.

[Emmett L. Brown]

HD remakes are one of the few cases I actually do consider graphics a hugely important deal. Worst case was with the HD remake of Turtles in Time, which sucked all the colour and life out of the game, leaving it a lifeless brownish shell (ohohohoho!) of its former self. So an HD remake of S3&K would need some serious proper COLOURFUL graphics. None of that brownscale twilight garbage (except in Sandopolis, I guess).

Platformers are one of the few genres left that dare to have a full colour palette, and the remake should embrace that. As long as the team followed the philosophy of Generations' designers, I'd be all for it.

Music should be the exact same tunes as before, but with enhanced quality. No remixing! None! Unless you add them as bonus tracks in sound test mode - that'd be cool.

Also the leaderboards should be based on completion time, and individual level times. NOT POINTS. Every single leaderboard of every single classic Sonic game has the number one spot locked at some exploitative individual with a score of 9999999, and that pretty much ruins the point of competition. (No, actually the number one spot usually belongs to someone who's hacked the game and would up with a score higher than the max number of digits the game normally allowes. Moderation is sucky at best.)

[Chaos Warp]

I'd rather they make something new. Now, something on the same or higher level of brilliance level as S3k? I can get behind that.

[Machenstein]

Use the Retro Engine from Sonic CD 2011, base the remake more on Sonic 3 Complete (with the customization features no less) and an enhanced soundtrack (with the option to select the original 16-BIT soundtrack).

Edited February 19, 2012 by Machenstein

[Sean]

The only things I want changed about S3&K are mostly bugfixes and reimplementation of features in S3 vanilla that are absent in lock-on. Mapping Super Sonic transformation to other buttons is a must, too.

So basically, Sonic 3 Complete suits my needs just fine, and then some.

[Indigo Rush]

...Hrm.

I personally feel that, if we're going to cash in on the original classics like that, it should be in the form of an updated port ala Sonic CD: Taxman Edition. I KNOW people are tired of ports, but I always felt that if we're going to buy these games individually, they should have extra features and improved physics, while the original ROMs are left to the disc-based compilations that pop up whenever a console geneartion is introduced that isn't backwards compatible with the previous one. I mean, it makes sense to me.

As for the kind of updates, I suppose I'll approach Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles one at a time:

Sonic 3

Bug fixes

Widescreen

Unlockable Knuckles

Improved multiplayer system (better physics, online mode, new levels (from Sonic 3))

Time Attack mode

Boss Attack mode

Special Stage Attack mode

Sonic 3 PC-exclusive music remastered, added and optional?

Option to lock onto Sonic & Knuckles...

Sonic & Knuckles

Bug fixes

Widescreen

Unlockable Tails

Unlockable level select ala Sonic 3

Multiplayer system (includes levels from S&K)

Time Attack mode

Boss Attack mode

Special Stage Attack mode

Option to lock onto Sonic 3...

Sonic 3 & Knuckles (Sonic 3 Complete)

Tails and Knuckles become playable by default

Score and Time Attack data transfer from both games

Complete adventure, with level layout alterations and music changes

Blue Sphere mini-game added (intact with all those levels!)

Super Emeralds unlocked

Hyper Tails...? ...for kicks? Eh? *nudge nudge*

Unlockable concept art and developer interviews?

Also, these updated ports shouldn't get in the way of the actual Sonic Team and Dimps making more games. The Taxman port was headed by a different development studio, so this "I'd rather them make something new" argument wouldn't actually apply since those studios wouldn't have done anything else to begin with.

EDIT 1:

Mapping Super Sonic transformation to other buttons is a must, too.

Also, this. Please.

EDIT 2:

Your topic title makes me want a hard mode.

THIS ALSO.

YOU GUYS HAVE VERY ATTRACTIVE BRAINS.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Indigo Rush

[Tornado]

I'd happily pay for an official version of Sonic 3 Complete, especially one with the care put into it that the Sonic CD port got with bugfixes and widescreen and everything.

However, as a lot of that stuff that makes me love Complete so much would be things that Sega wouldn't do for a rerelease port, I'll just stick to the one I already got.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Gilda

[Badnik Zero]

Your topic title makes me want a hard mode. Do you know how many times I've beaten this game? The number of times SSMB members have beaten S3&K would break my computer processor. I need a hardcore mode. How about...

- 50% less rings, less monitors.

- More newly placed Badniks, with randomized attack speeds.

- New randomized special stages selected from the hardest 20 levels on Blue Sphere.

- Bosses that take twice or more the amount of hits.

I realize this is a kinda lame hack job thing to want from Sega, right? Lol, but it's all I can think of wanting.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Badnikz

[Machenstein]

However, as a lot of that stuff that makes me love Complete so much would be things that Sega wouldn't do for a rerelease port, I'll just stick to the one I already got.

I don't know, if Taxman were to be involved in an HD port of Sonic 3 & Knuckles, I'm sure he'd inform the team of the things we like about Sonic 3 Complete. He is a Sonic scener after all.

[Spooky Mulder]

S3&K would look gorgeous if it were remade using the Hedgehog Engine, but I hope they never do such a thing. The time/resources for a project like that should go to a new game that's just as good as S3&K.

However, Taxman's SCD port looks and plays great. I would absolutely support remaking Sonic 1-S&K if the Retro Engine was being used.

[Machenstein]

Your topic title makes me want a hard mode. Do you know how many times I've beaten this game? The number of times SSMB members have beaten S3&K would break my computer processor. I need a hardcore mode.

One thing that should definitely be harder is the Knuckles boss fight. He needs to be just as hard as he was in Sonic Pocket Adventure. In fact, I'd revamp Hidden Palace Zone so that the fight goes on longer. Sonic would fight Knuckles at the bottom area of the zone where Knuckles would be easy to beat. Upon being defeated, Knuckles would use the teleporter to go to the upper area of the zone where you usually fight him, only he's harder than he was before.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Machenstein

[Badnik Zero]

Wait a minute I know

SHADOW THE HEDGEHOG

[Chaos Walker]

>Optional music? Like in Generations? Gawrd, yesh.

>Unlockable concept art and developer interviews? ._. Interviews would change the color of my pants for the brown. In a good way.

>Hard mode? My sisters can't get past hydrocity, but I could play this game every day after each meal. It's been a while since Sonic owned me.

>Harder Knuckles fight? ... As much as I'd like everything to remain in-tact, I can't say I would dislike that. That fight was sad.

Am I the only one that would kind of like to try fighting bosses with characters who don't normaly reach them? Can you say Tails vs Super Metal Sonic? _{(Or is it Hyper Metal? eh)}

Wait a minute I know

SHADOW THE HEDGEHOG

Only after they add copious ammounts of voice acting.

[MykonosFan]

In addition to just about everything above, I'd love to see the Generations Time Trials and 30 Second Challenges be implemented. They may ultimately be rather pointless features, but damn is it fun to try and outdo your friends.

Of course, I'd rather see the amount of effort go into a new game, but if Sonic 3&K had to be remade for modern standards, I'd love for it to have most of the features mentioned here.

[TheOcelot]

Firstly, its unlikely that S3&K will ever get a remake like CD did because the full (complete S3&K) game has been ported to just about every game console accept the PS3.

SEGA/Taxman would need to give it HD and widescreen graphics. I would say a new soundtrack by really talented artists i.e. Crush 40, as well as the original great soundtrack. A two player mode mimmicking the Sonic 2 two player versus using the S3&K levels or enhancing the Sonic 3 two player levels: Azure lake, Baloon pak, Gadget Crome, Desert Palace and Endless Mine.

Time Trial mode. Add the 'Blue Sphere' 30,000 plus levels that you got when you lock on the Sonic 1 cartridge with the Sonic & Knuckles cartridge (megadrive/genesis). Those 30,000 stages belong with the S3&K.

When doing the complete S3&K version add the 'Big arm boss' at the end of Launch Base Zone when you play as Sonic and Tails like in Sonic 3. Its a really great boss and whilst you face it if you play as Knuckles, it is a shame they removed it when you play as Sonic and Tails. I would also restore to S3&K the harder difficulty you get in Launch Base Zone in Sonic 3.

I also prefer the music when Knuckles shows up (laying his traps) in the Sonic 3 version than in the S3&K/Sonic and Knuckles version.

I would shy away from the idea of missions like you get in the modern games. I always felt that the missions were a poor (slightly boring) substitute for a lack of decent gameplay. Because of the bonus stages you have every chance of finishing a lot of acts with 999 rings and you can get 99 lives after the first 4 zones. So plently of replay value.

Other than that nothing else really needs to be added. Afterall what made S3&K such a great game is that there was very little wrong with it.

Edited February 19, 2012 by MilesKnightwing

[Chaos Walker]

Firstly, its unlikely that S3&K will ever get a remake like CD did because the full (complete S3&K) game has been ported to just about every game console accept the PS3.

I can dream.

I would shy away from the idea of missions like you get in the modern games. I always felt that the missions were a poor (slightly boring) substitute for a lack of decent gameplay. Because of the bonus stages you have every chance of finishing a lot of acts with 999 rings and you can get 99 lives after the first 4 zones. So plently of replay value.

It's not like missions would be used to pad anything out here, since you can't steal development time from a game that was... allready developed. If anything, this is the safest place to use them since the game is allready nigh on perfect. And a hundred rings challenge could be as simple as disabling bonus stages during the mission. And they don't have to be so generic either. Sure kill 20 enemies is the first thing that comes to mind, but what about the find the lost chao missions from Adventure 2? There your job was to get to a descreetly hidden section of the stage you would normaly ignore. And if you don't like missions... well then play the game as it is, lol.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Chaos Walker

[Diogenes]

I just

dont

care

I mean I love S3&K, and I know the premise of the topic is "what if", but even taking that "what if" I really can't muster the interest to ask for anything. I already have S3&K. It isn't perfect but it does what it does and it does it pretty damn well and I can't think of anything I'd care to add that would make me buy it again.

[The future]

Like someone else said, Sonic # & Knuckles Complete on the Retro with a few more things. Like having Knuckles go on the Death Egg with Sonic in Sonic's storyline to chase the Master Emerald. Or have Amy fly the Tornado in a Sky Chase-like level. And have Knuckles and Tails together.

[krazystitch]

Meh..basically way Chaos Warp and Dio said.

I really enjoyed Sonic 3 & Knuckles, heck, it's my favorite out of the classic games for the Genesis and all, but..I honestly can't really say that I would want anything specific for a remake of the game or, heck, if I even want a remake at all. I know this is just a "What if" scenario and all, and that's fine to think of stuff like that, but I'm already so sick of looking back at the old stuff and I'd much rather prefer looking forward and suggesting and thinking of what can happen. And I don't mean old games coming back. We've had enough ports and remakes to own the original Sonic game for probably every console you can imagine.

[Chaos Walker]

I feel like now is time to say where this topic came from:

I have to say S3&K is in my top 3 favorite games EVUR. A while ago the WiiU was announced, and I realized that if I trade up I won't be able to play my Sonic Mega Collection anymore. I looked at the Wii's virtual Console, and saw that it would take $16 to keep access to that gem. Buying the game again has been on my mind for a bit, and well... when ANY game is on my mind for a while, I can't help but start thinking of ways to change/improve it. But this time it wasn't Metroid/Pokemon/whatever, it's SAWNIC, and I was like "Hey... I know a place where people like Sonic."

This isn't some sort of rebuttle to what anyone has said, haha. I just felt prompted to put this out there.

[Phos]

HD remakes are one of the few cases I actually do consider graphics a hugely important deal. Worst case was with the HD remake of Turtles in Time, which sucked all the colour and life out of the game, leaving it a lifeless brownish shell (ohohohoho!) of its former self. So an HD remake of S3&K would need some serious proper COLOURFUL graphics. None of that brownscale twilight garbage (except in Sandopolis, I guess).

The Turtles in Time remake was a completely different game, I guess the developers didn't really know how to map the collision that the beat em side view used onto a 3D environment (TBH this isn't an easy thing), so they ended up with 3D mimicking 2D mimicking 3D, and from my understanding, they made it even more button mashy than the original.

[Emmett L. Brown]

The Turtles in Time remake was a completely different game, I guess the developers didn't really know how to map the collision that the beat em side view used onto a 3D environment (TBH this isn't an easy thing), so they ended up with 3D mimicking 2D mimicking 3D, and from my understanding, they made it even more button mashy than the original.

[Chaos Walker]

I wonder... how much of a graphics boost would one want? Let's use Sonic 2 as an example since there's that HD project and all.

The Sonic 2 HD project is super true to the original design without looking boring and plastic.

Now here's a famous pic. The artist takes a few liberties with the texture though.

Do you prefer faithfulness, or enhancement?

Edited February 20, 2012 by Chaos Walker

[Chaos Warp]

Do you prefer faithfulness, or enhancement?

Both. if they were to remake this game, I would want HD 2.5 d graphics, that stay true to the original, while being...well...2.5d. Like Classic Generations graphics bascially.

[Chaos Walker]

Both. if they were to remake this game, I would want HD 2.5 d graphics, that stay true to the original, while being...well...2.5d. Like Classic Generations graphics bascially.

Hadn't even considered 2.5D.... Personaly I'd prefer HD sprites. I suppose this is one of those areas where people might be split.