What's the Point of Taking Things Away?

[Indigo Rush]

I'm sorry but you're saying a kid who's done something REALLY wrong doesn't deserve a punishment? When I did get punished physically I knew I did something wrong. You do it when the kid genuinely deserves it where the incident has gone past words, punishments like removing privileges etc. Not any time they do something wrong, that's where not a lot of you take into account. You seem to group every parent who uses smacking as a punishment together, even though most REASONABLE parents will only use smacking as a last case scenario >.>.

My cousin recently broke my grandads stereo. What punishment did he get? "Don't do that again". What did he go on to do, break something because he got the same punishment he gets when biting or whatever little kids do to warrant that. Unless you're actually really scary when angry then, they're not gonna learn. Hence why my aunts having him run circles round her because she's too soft on him.

Agreed.

Spanking is not for every little thing. In some cases, it's the lighter punishment.

When I talk about physical punishment, I'm referring to a light slap on the butt, enough for the kid to think "Ow! That hurt!" Not, "OH MY GOD THE PAIN IM BLEEEEDDIIIINNNGGGG"

Why do people see it in black and white? It's not either severe beating or super nice discipline.

[TheGerkuman]

Unfortunately a lot of people who were spanked have been conditioned to accept the 'I deserved it' mentality which is the exact same belief that many people who suffer abuse have because it's easier to accept then admitting you were a victim of abuse.

To me, this sort of attitude turns something small into something big. Why must we constantly spend our time going through the past when we turned out ok? Most of us were not beaten! Anyone who was, was indeed abused, but I can't stand this sort of attitude because it makes my parents out to be bad people just because they happened to have a different opinion to today's wisdom and smacked me, when I was too young to reason.

Kids at that age haven't got the mental facilities than olders kids do. That is proven. Of course, we do have the 'Naughty Step' method now, but I don't think we should look back in anger.

Edited May 15, 2009 by Skullivan Gerk

[Eileanach]

I don't think that being beaten means you are conditioned to accept "I deserved that". I think the fear of getting a slap is a better deterrent than the threat of "OMG YOU NOT GET YOUR WII" so fuck. I can READ or... god forbid do something educational! HOLY FUCK!

I was never scared of my mum, I was never conditioned to fear and respect her. I respect and love her because she was a good influence and a very fair and free spirited mother. She never told me "You are getting smacked because you deserve this!" or "You are losing out on your lunch tonight because you deserve it!" no, she was telling me "You are getting hit so you remember not to EVER do that again because you scared/frightened me and I want you to learn from this!". Hitting a child isn't WRONG beating a child to a bloody pulp is. There's a difference between a slap to say "no" and a beating.

[Vasco]

It largely depends on the concept of "spanking". I see nothing wrong with slapping a child if s/he refuses to comply and if the parent has tried all the other alternatives. I do not believe it should be avoided at all costs. It's not exactly carrying a whip around, and it teaches the child to tell right from wrong.

Of course some people may have never been spanked and turned out fine. Doesn't take away the fact that some will see it as permission to do whatever they want. That's what I think.

Edited May 15, 2009 by Vasco

[ovarloard]

I've been spanked, and the method does work. But there are definitely lots of better way to do things, such as rewarding the kid if the kid does well rather than punishing the kid if he does poorly. Either method works, and the one that hurts the kid less (which is the former), or the one that uses positivity rather than negativity (again, the former) is the best IMO.

[JezMM]

The bottom line is this to me:

You see a child throw a cup on the floor for fun and it smashes, as used in a previous example by someone else.

By talking to the child and telling them how important it is to respect other people's stuff, you teach them that they shouldn't break cups for fun because it hurts other people's feelings.

By smacking the child for it, you teach them that they shouldn't break cups for fun because they'll get smacked if they do.

The latter just doesn't seem like a good life lesson to me.

Now yes, some kids can be out of control, but if my child continued to break things after this, then there's obviously something wrong with the child. They're not getting the attention they need, or perhaps might even have a mental illness.

[Indigo Rush]

The bottom line is this to me:

You see a child throw a cup on the floor for fun and it smashes, as used in a previous example by someone else.

By talking to the child and telling them how important it is to respect other people's stuff, you teach them that they shouldn't break cups for fun because it hurts other people's feelings.

By smacking the child for it, you teach them that they shouldn't break cups for fun because they'll get smacked if they do.

The latter just doesn't seem like a good life lesson to me.

Now yes, some kids can be out of control, but if my child continued to break things after this, then there's obviously something wrong with the child. They're not getting the attention they need, or perhaps might even have a mental illness.

For me, it'd be a warning first. Second time, a spank. Third time, grounded for a day with a spank. If this continues, then I'll seek help. But I'm not going to just talk it out every time. Their only deterrent would be my boring lectures.

You know... it really depends on their age. Explaining in depth why something is bad to a 2 year old won't be very effective, and neither is spanking. But when they're able to talk, like age 5, then they are old enough to be spanked AND old enough to have privileges taken away.

By smacking the child for it, you teach them that they shouldn't break cups for fun because they'll get smacked if they do.

Yeah... and when they're older, they'll really know why.

If you were spanked, you know why, and what's right and wrong now, yes? So... what's the problem?

Edited May 16, 2009 by Indigo Rush

[JezMM]

If you were spanked, you know why, and what's right and wrong now, yes? So... what's the problem?

Indeed I was spanked by my Step-Dad, and all I've taken away from it is that I hated it, and would never do that to my children. Hell, my Step-Dad was doubley in the wrong for doing it mind you since he wasn't even related to me. Had I told my real Dad what was going on, my life and my Step-Dad's life might have turned out a completely different way.

The fact that I remember getting smacked multiple times for the same things over and over shows I didn't learn anything from it at the time.

Children are more intelligent than people give them credit for, and you can talk to them. If they percieve your punishment to be nothing more than a "boring lecture" then you aren't telling them right.

I guess it's just a general policy of pacifism and forgiveness on my part though. Besides, if someone is new on a job and does something wrong, unless the boss is a total jerk and/or socially inept, they aren't going to smack the employee on the bum for doing it.

I just don't understand why it's okay to physically hurt children for making mistakes because they don't understand how something is wrong. Because whether you're simply smacking a child or going so far to hit them with a belt, as long as it's hard enough for them to scream or cry afterwards, I don't care, to me, you are hurting a child. And I think hurting anyone is a disgusting thing to do, so someone in a stage of their life where their pain threshold is at the lowest and your physical strength is at the highest is something else.

[Roarey Raccoon]

Young children remember that their parents hit them rather than the reason why. It's not good practice in my book. You don't kick your dog when it does something wrong so you shouldn't smack your kids. Up to the parent of course but I think it's detrimental and there are other, more constructive and useful ways to tackle the problem. All the kid is going to do is learn how to avoid getting twatted rather than actually learn why the punishment occurs. That's of course taking for granted that the kid actually does learn to not get twatted, which is generally not the case.

[Indigo Rush]

Yeah, I hated getting smacked. Now I'm glad they did it. If they didn't discipline me, then I'd be a far off worse bloke to be hanging out on the forums with you guys. Now, let me be clear before I rant on about how I was punished, I'm going to compare ACTUAL abuse to ACTUAL discipline.

When I lived with my

cross-dressing

stepfather, I'd say the crap I had to put up with was pretty terrible.

Did you have your ear pulled at and almost ripped off by your stepfather?

Did you ever have to deal with being sworn at by your stepfather?

Were you ever wrestled down to the floor and tossed around by your stepfather?

When your stepfather spanked you, did he make you drop your pants and have you hung by your hands and feet (with the help of dear old mommy) and be relentlessly beat on the arse until it was redder than red itself?

Have you ever feared for your life whenever you hung around your stepfather?

I didn't think so. That is abuse. That is abusing your child. And the insane man got away with it, too. And let me emphasize, it stopped me from doing certain things, yes, but it taught me a lesson on how NOT to parent.

Now, let me tell you how I was handled after my current parents (father and stepmother) took custody.

They certainly took a more hands-off approach to punishment. They focussed more on sticking me in my room for a day if i screwed up, and only lightly swatted my rear when I used filthy language or disrespected my parents. It was rare, and it stopped when I turned 13. After which, more severe punishments occurred such as a more severe grounding. Which was hard to do, I had no videogame systems and restricted television in the first place.

So, that's my discipline story. Eventually I showed my parents I didn't give a damn about one thing or another, and once I realized I was without discipline and was being a douche, I actually opted myself to go to military school. Let me ask you, would bad parenting make you want to do that?

Anyway, I think that once you put things into perspective, a light swat across the fanny isn't a terrible punishment. It's not abuse in the slightest, and the way you were punished (an indirect comment, mind you) really makes a difference. Of course as a kid you're going to hate it. I hated every minute of my childhood. I can't remember a single happy moment in my child life other than playing my Sega Genesis when I was a with my mother (probably why I'm a Sonic fan; only good thing in my childhood) but as a late-teen young-adult, I look back to the way my stepmother and father (the non abusive ones with mild spanking) and saw how affective it really was. It didn't sink in at first, and my parents didn't like doing it either, but through time and discipline and learning over time, I finally understood why they did what they did.

For parents who want immediate results, not spanking won't help, and neither will spanking. You won't get immediate results. Even if your child has a pleasant disposition and doesn't need spanking or punishment, there will still be things they won't understand unless you explain it to them at first. If they refuse to listen or just don't get it, they will when they're older. You all understand WHY you were punished and WHAT you did wrong, yes?

If I was a parent (which I hope to be) I would avoid spanking my kid, of course, but if they ever misbehave, I'll pull them over and tell them "no." We will agree that the child won't do it. If they disobey, they get a second warning. If they pull it again, then they get spanked. And if they don't get it, they'll learn to be afraid of doing whatever it is that they did wrong, not be afraid of ME. Because I won't be all spank. Children who fear their parents fear them because all they do is spank. My children won't fear me because I will raise them with a loving yet firm hand. I'll use both positive and negative reinforcements. Hence the term reinforcement, not enforcement. I won't be parenting on enforcement alone. There will be communication as soon as the kid is old enough to comprehend language, and I will educate him/her and make sure they are raised to be a good and polite child.

For some reason, people still don't seem to understand that the two can go together.

Edited May 16, 2009 by Indigo Rush

[DarkOverord]

The bottom line is this to me:

You see a child throw a cup on the floor for fun and it smashes, as used in a previous example by someone else.

By talking to the child and telling them how important it is to respect other people's stuff, you teach them that they shouldn't break cups for fun because it hurts other people's feelings.

By smacking the child for it, you teach them that they shouldn't break cups for fun because they'll get smacked if they do.

The latter just doesn't seem like a good life lesson to me.

Again as I've said multiple times. Smacking SHOULD be a last case scenario. My mother hated it, but she still did it. AND lectured me. And made me stare at a turned off TV in silence for 30min if it was truly that bad that she'd actually give up having a TV show on (The house, every house I live in I noted got EXTREMELY quiet without that infernal entertainment box). Now. Let me say this, a kid honestly doesn't care about peoples feelings unless they get a punishment, which you could go with an eye for an eye, minus breaking AKA removing TV or whatever. If they've been warned however to NOT do it. Do you think they'll care at all? No, give them a thick ear. Sending them to bed with no supper is another favourite. When I was a really big git I'd get in from school and get sent straight to bed. Which I admit. Was worse than being smacked. It really was 'cus mum made sure I couldn't do ANYTHING at all in my room bar lie in bed. Can't remember what I did to warrant a month getting sent to bed only allowed to come down for tea. But I can sure as hell know mum gave me a clout beforehand.

And would you not kick a dog for doing something wrong? No, but you'd hit it, not in a violent way, but with a paper or whatever. Afterall, mother dogs literally pick up their pups and just drop them back on the floor if they've done something wrong. Pup knows it's done bad and doesn't repeat. Same applies to humans, the difference being is, once the screaming child has finished screaming "I HATE YOU I HATE YOU I WISH I WAS NEVER BORN" (A favourite of mine =D), the parent actually has the opportunity to go "This is why I did <action> etc.". You can't go happy slapping children though, that DOES go into the realms of abuse. I will admit, only crap parents use spanking as a punishment for everything.

However, children don't just learn from words and words alone. Actions also speak loudly. Hence why a clout (Or if you're strong enough, just picking the kid up and moving them away and just dumping them on <couch/bed>) work. But they only truly work if you take the time to explain WHY you did it.

Admittedly. Once you hit nine you get the problem of "Hey I have a vocabulary now *backchat*" that makes parenting a fucking git to do anyways. Words or smacks alike.

Edited May 16, 2009 by DarkOverord

[Strong Bad]

For some reason, people still don't seem to understand that the two can go together.

The reason is that your opinion isn't fact. It never has, and never will be.

I don't feel like saying what Roarey said basically verbatim here so just pretend his post is here, since it's my opinion as well.

[DarkOverord]

The reason is that your opinion isn't fact. It never has, and never will be.

They can though. It's how I was raised by a single mother and I'm the most polite guy you'll meet these days.

[Strong Bad]

Yeah, and a person can murder someone. Doesn't mean it's right. What's your point?

[DarkOverord]

Yeah, and a person can murder someone. Doesn't mean it's right. What's your point?

Your comparing smacking as a parenting technique to murdering. I'm sorry. But how the hell do I even form a counterpoint to such a huge slippery slope?

Edited May 16, 2009 by DarkOverord

[Indigo Rush]

Your comparing smacking as a parenting technique to murdering. I'm sorry. But how the hell do I even form a counterpoint to such a huge slippery slope?

You don't... I'm still not convinced he knows what he's talking about.

Not letting people post stupid shit since 2005

...yeah.

Edited May 16, 2009 by Indigo Rush

[Strong Bad]

So basically you aren't going to respond.

Sounds like a plan. ^___^

[DarkOverord]

So basically you aren't going to respond.

Sounds like a plan. ^___^

How CAN you respond to a absurd comparison of smacking to murder. SERIOUSLY!? Do tell!

[Indigo Rush]

So basically you aren't going to respond.

Sounds like a plan. ^___^

Murdering isn't right: disciplining your child is. I fail to see your argument.

[Tamaki Kawazoe <3]

Actually, when I did get spanked when I was younger, they always pulled the pants down in the rear and smacked me hard, no matter what bad I did. It hurt so badly that I cried. I can still feel the pain thinking about it. All it taught me was to try and just sit and do nothing in order to know I will not get spanked.

[Reverest]

I used to think the same Nights. I used to wonder if they'd take everything away and then I'd be terrible because I had nothing to lose. But my parents said I needed to stop getting in trouble and focus on class, or I'd be reading books the whole summer long, so now I shut up and listen.

[Tamaki Kawazoe <3]

I used to think the same Nights. I used to wonder if they'd take everything away and then I'd be terrible because I had nothing to lose. But my parents said I needed to stop getting in trouble and focus on class, or I'd be reading books the whole summer long, so now I shut up and listen.

I am not going to summer school, they sent out cards saying who is going to summer school. Thing is they also said I passed around the second quarter. So I don't see WHY I need to get B's or A's. I actually like school mind you.

BTW:Off topic but this topic got so popular so quickly!

[Indigo Rush]

I used to think the same Nights. I used to wonder if they'd take everything away and then I'd be terrible because I had nothing to lose. But my parents said I needed to stop getting in trouble and focus on class, or I'd be reading books the whole summer long, so now I shut up and listen.

Reading over the summer wasn't punishment for me (it felt like it, though) it was a requirement! Although I suppose I'm just reminiscing at this point...

[Strong Bad]

How CAN you respond to a absurd comparison of smacking to murder. SERIOUSLY!? Do tell!

I don't respond to my own arguments, sir.

disciplining your child is right.

Is also not a fact, as "right" has no true definition.

LOL ambiguity

well anyway... we're going a bit off-topic, so I'll stop now. It was fun seeing you guys not being able to debate your side, though, and instead asking "WHAT HOW AM I SUPPOSED"

Edited May 16, 2009 by Strong Bad

[Indigo Rush]

It was fun seeing you guys not being able to debate your side

You mean just like you did?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Edited May 16, 2009 by Indigo Rush