Chaos Warp Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) So, you know many people want many different things in a Sonic game. No matter what SEGA does, no one will be completely satisfied. So I've been thinking: Maybe moveset customization is the answer? As in, prefer boosting over rolling/spindash? Equip boosting instead of rolling/spindash! Prefer bouncing over stomping? Equip that instead! Not a "unlock better moves", kind of system, all moves should be balanced with each other, more of a "preference" system. Also, Sonic should have the basics as base moves such as the spin jump, homing attack, and drift (I think it's essential because it's your "turn at high speeds", move). This system basically allows you to create the Sonic YOU want to play as, maybe satisfying everyone a little more. Thoughts? Edited February 24, 2012 by Chaos Warp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Blood Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Absolutely not. You can't put options in for every detail. That's terrible game design. Playing Unleashed for example without the HA or boost and with bouncing and rolling instead would be awful. Even with freedom in mind game are designed to be played with boundaries. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Warp Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) Absolutely not. You can't put options in for every detail. That's terrible game design. Playing Unleashed for example without the HA or boost and with bouncing and rolling instead would be awful. Even with freedom in mind game are designed to be played with boundaries. Well, if none of these moves were essential to the game (Like the Unleashed boost example), then it would work fine. Heck, if you nerfed the Boost's gauge and made rolling a base move, it could work. Edited February 24, 2012 by Chaos Warp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scar Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Its not the entire solution. However, having certain little perks like in Generations would be nice. Like extreme deceleration or higher top-speed, or a burst of speed at the beginning of the stage. Customising entire movesets would mean Sonic Team would have to design a stage based upon every single possible combination of movesets and thats just ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sami Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 You'd have to have incredibly versatile level design for that to work; something that just isn't possible for a game as frantic and fast paced as Sonic. I'd rather have them focus on making good level design that perfectly complements Sonic's moveset. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diogenes Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 No. The player character's abilities and the level design are linked. You can't put Genesis Sonic into an Unleashed level (or Unleashed Sonic in a Genesis level) and expect it to work. This goes for both "oh you need *specific move* to get past *specific obstacle*", as well as the general interplay of the abilities and level design (rolling isn't of much use in a level that doesn't have many downhill segments, for example). In the best case you can make alternate routes for different movesets (roll down one hill, or boost up the other), but they can't possibly do that and still present a good number of routes to any one moveset. There are some moves you could play around with (stomp vs bounce, for example), but for major gameplay elements, and trying to do this with the majority of Sonic's moveset, it just doesn't work. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JezMM Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Yeah, it'd make for really loose, and therefore bland level design. Players with one moveset would get confused when they take a route that isn't possible with their choice, or if every route was possible, the levels would be really unbalanced difficulty-wise. Why take the trouble of completing a precision jumping section that makes use of the bounce jump when your moveset contains an air boost that can shoot right to the other side in one go? I like the optional minor tweaks system Generations had, but that's as far as it should go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alluusio Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I don't think it would be a good idea. If the level design and physics engine is built around boosting, replacing boost with a spindash isn't going to do a lot of good. And I don't think the boost is a problem in itself. I don't mind the boost, but I really hate the way Sonic handles in recent games. He just feels too stiff. Remove the boost and the gameplay feels even more awkward. If you can customize the moveset, the physics engine needs some serious customization as well, not to mention the level design. And pulling all of this off would be really difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Warp Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 No. The player character's abilities and the level design are linked. You can't put Genesis Sonic into an Unleashed level (or Unleashed Sonic in a Genesis level) and expect it to work. This goes for both "oh you need *specific move* to get past *specific obstacle*", as well as the general interplay of the abilities and level design (rolling isn't of much use in a level that doesn't have many downhill segments, for example). In the best case you can make alternate routes for different movesets (roll down one hill, or boost up the other), but they can't possibly do that and still present a good number of routes to any one moveset. There are some moves you could play around with (stomp vs bounce, for example), but for major gameplay elements, and trying to do this with the majority of Sonic's moveset, it just doesn't work. I feel Boost could work decently in a slope-y level. Nerf it's gauge a lot, and keep rolling (NOT spindashing, just rolling) as a base move. The boost could provide max speed at the touch pf a button, but you'd have to really choose where to use it because of how nerfed the gauge was. It would defeat classic mechanics, but that's besides the point, as in some people may WANT to defeat the Classic mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scar Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 The point is, if you want to design a really tight and efficient set of levels, you can't leave fundamental moveset choices to the player. Its is impossible to design a stage for every possibility and have it work seamlessly. You need to settle on a base moveset and design levels as best you can around those parameters. The only customisation should be left to the frivolous things such as bounce vs stomp, or higher acceleration/top speed or something. Not allow for the unholy mix of Unleashed and classic. There is simply no point in trying to Unify to polar opposites to try and please everyone because its impossible. Certainly leaving it to the player to decide how much of each they want is the least effective way of doing it, because you end up diluting each one down to try and get them to mix and the result will not be as good as either one on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Warp Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 Okay, I see your points and I agree with them. It would be bad to allow for customization of core gameplay like this. Honestly, all this seemed way better in my head................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neezTHEhuman Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I feel Boost could work decently in a slope-y level. Nerf it's gauge a lot, and keep rolling (NOT spindashing, just rolling) as a base move. The boost could provide max speed at the touch pf a button, but you'd have to really choose where to use it because of how nerfed the gauge was. It would defeat classic mechanics, but that's besides the point, as in some people may WANT to defeat the Classic mechanics. Off topic but from reading your posts its clear that you just can't live without the boost. Just wondering why that is because I simply cannot understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Warp Posted February 25, 2012 Author Share Posted February 25, 2012 Off topic but from reading your posts its clear that you just can't live without the boost. Just wondering why that is because I simply cannot understand. Not that I can't live without it, but it was for the sake of argument that "Boost can't work in a slope-y level". I don't mind the boost, I do want the level of speed though, although I'd like to earn it instead of the instant dash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diogenes Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Well it's not that the game would be unplayable, but anything that is based on the rolling/momentum mechanics ceases to be relevant. Hills, whether they be up or down, don't matter when you can blast off and continue at maximum speed with the press of a button. A level built for rolling isn't going to have much to offer a Sonic that can boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Walker Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) Sonic woud simply need one set move that you cannot change, and tadah, that's all you need to base the levels around. After that you just have to make sure that the other abilities don't break the levels that are designed around that one move. How do we know that works? Um, it was sort of how S3&K worked. The spindash was a common move all 3 characters could, and probably HAD to use due the fact the levels were built around it. Flying and gliding were cool, but optional. Well, there you go. Customization is safe so long as the levels are based on SOMETHING that will always be there, and the other moves don't break the design. Edited February 25, 2012 by Chaos Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrownSlayers Shadow Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 The more freedom you give, the more unclear the player will be at what to use at his disposal. The more restrictive you are, the more the player yearns to be free. Customization for a Sonic game would have to work where you have all the moves at your disposal at any time and any place after you gain them, and used at your discretion. Basically, if the player wants to homing attack a group of enemies, boost through them, fly over them, or sneak past them, they are more than welcome to. It would be akin to having all the wisp powers at one time in Colors in order to get through one obstacle in several different ways. However, to make this work, you also need level design to complement it. The player can't boost past enemies if the only way to get across without dying is to homing attack them to progress. If you leave the player to pick and choose, then you're likely to throw the player into a death trap they can't get out of when you design a section with a specific ability needed to proceed. If you want to accomplish this, you seriously need to start straight from the ground up on this with both the level design and the moveset and that alone would probably be very difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phos Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 This customizable moveset thing bugged me in generations when they made something that really should just be innate an ability, namely the sure footed perk. That's the one where you recover from being hit as soon as you land rather than having to wait for the "get back up" animation. It's how it worked in the classics and it should really be how it works everywhere. I think they even got this right in the Adventure games, though it might be just because they didn't want to make the animation. Well it's not that the game would be unplayable, but anything that is based on the rolling/momentum mechanics ceases to be relevant. Hills, whether they be up or down, don't matter when you can blast off and continue at maximum speed with the press of a button. A level built for rolling isn't going to have much to offer a Sonic that can boost. More so than ordinary hills, I suspect that giving the player the boost on such a level would tent to get really annoying, lots of being sent straight up by ramps and flying into walls if you try to put it to much use, and even then it still might be the fastest way but I don't see it being very fun. I imagine it playing like a complex version of one of those endless falling games where you have to go through the holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkOverord Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Sonic woud simply need one set move that you cannot change, and tadah, that's all you need to base the levels around. After that you just have to make sure that the other abilities don't break the levels that are designed around that one move. How do we know that works? Um, it was sort of how S3&K worked. The spindash was a common move all 3 characters could, and probably HAD to use due the fact the levels were built around it. Flying and gliding were cool, but optional. Well, there you go. Customization is safe so long as the levels are based on SOMETHING that will always be there, and the other moves don't break the design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solkia Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Okay, I see your points and I agree with them. Honestly, all this seemed way better in my head................... 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Walker Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Generations on Basics had Run, Jump, Slide, Boost, Stomp, Light Dash, Wall Jump, Tricks, Drifting, Homing Attack and probably more that comes to mind later. And pretty much all of these were essential to the gameplay. Personaly, I think that's a bit of a flaw in Sonic's moveset. The inclusion of so many moves causes them to be usable in only a single situation, and out of that context... well, why would you ever slide if there wasn't a small space blocking your path? I'd much rather Sonc kept only about... 2 of those moves as constants that levels were actually built around, and the others all ended up being generic platforming moves that you could choose according to your tastes, or for finding particular secret paths specific to certain stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaMan_EXE Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 We've only had 3 games with this feature (I'm sure Chronicles didn't have it) Secret Rings Black Knight Generations This doesn't count upgrades in the Adventure games and *sighs* 06 right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Blood Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 We've only had 3 games with this feature (I'm sure Chronicles didn't have it) Secret Rings Black Knight Generations This doesn't count upgrades in the Adventure games and *sighs* 06 right? Secret Rings and Black Knight have mostly just move upgrades, and more importantly are totally on-rails. It's very easy to make customisable movesets when a game is limited in such a way. Generations on the other had has a bunch of key moves that cannot be changed, and a few extras on top of upgrades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaMan_EXE Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Secret Rings and Black Knight have mostly just move upgrades, and more importantly are totally on-rails. It's very easy to make customisable movesets when a game is limited in such a way. Generations on the other had has a bunch of key moves that cannot be changed, and a few extras on top of upgrades. Oh that way. Yeah, Generations did do a good job on that. CLASSIC HOMING ATTACK FTW!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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