Attitude Adjustment

[Machenstein]

I might be in the minority here, but I've always preferred Sonic as a dysfunctional superhero rather than another cookie cutter "badass" hero. Part of what I found endearing about Sonic's scenes in Colors was how self-aware they were. Yes, Sonic was trying to be cool, but that's where the humor was derived from. It was apparent enough through how Tails responded to Sonic "talking to dead robots" and the multitude of other ways Sonic tried in a futile effort to express his 'tude.

That said, I've always preferred to laugh at Sonic rather than awe at how oh so "cool" he is.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Machenstein

[Kuzu]

I did like the moment in Colours with Sonic pushing Tails into the elevator near the end, although note how that was actions rather than words. The current English writers (whether they're the original that the Japanese script was derived from or not) just can't write Sonic's personality to save their lives. How they can flanderise 'good guy who's cheesy in a cool kind of way' to 'loud, obnoxious twat who spouts awful jokes every other sentence' is a bit beyond me, but oh well. That said, they really don't have much to go on when the recent plots have been painfully simple to the point of almost nonexistance.

Because Sonic was boring as all shit before Colors, honestly there was nothing about him that stood out other than the generic hero traits that everybody has, and that makes Sonic even less interesting in that regard. Colors took basically a cookie cutter hero, actually gave him some personality and lampooned the hell out of it; I could understand the hate for Colors if Sonic's attitude was taken completely seriously, then he'd be annoying, but the game makes it a point that its basically a parody.

I don't know about you, but I find Sonic a lot more interesting when the games aren't taking themselves completely seriously, otherwise he's just kind of boring to watch, badassery isn't a substitute for actual personality.

[Vertekins]

Because Sonic was boring as all shit before Colors, honestly there was nothing about him that stood out other than the generic hero traits that everybody has, and that makes Sonic even less interesting in that regard. Colors took basically a cookie cutter hero, actually gave him some personality and lampooned the hell out of it; I could understand the hate for Colors if Sonic's attitude was taken completely seriously, then he'd be annoying, but the game makes it a point that its basically a parody.

Really?

Colours took Sonic, exaggerated his mannerisms and write other traits as being different to what he had consistently shown before. That's just Flanderization for the sake of the plot's tone, morphing Sonic to suit the whimsy.

The Storybook series proved that you could get whimsy and serious of Sonic without betraying his set characterization or exaggerating it or making him spout 'humorous' (Read: Really childish) one-liners that consume entire cutscenes and punt aside development.

There's nothing wrong with Sonic as a character or his personality. The problem is that either not enough is done to make use of his personality traits and therefore make him particularly interesting or his character is written very inconsistently.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Verte

[Voyant]

You can still be a Badass and have a personality.

Spider-Man is kinda like that...but its the fact that Sonic lacks the "badass" parts is what I dislike in Colors...

I like fleshed out "silly" Heroes myself, but Sonic can have just as much of 2 dimensional "Dysfunctional Hero" as he could be a "Cookie Cutter Badass."

At this point this all truly falls in within writing...which to be honest has NEVER been Sonic's strongest point.

Another example of who Sonic should take picks at personally wise?

Wally West version of Flash is reaaaallly close to what I think Sonic should be like in our modern times. The dude is funny, kind of a jerk with a heart of gold type, often fucks up as well, but when it time to get serious he pulls some of the most amazing stuff in the shows/comics.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Voy-Boy

[Scar]

Colours as a whole is pretty devisive.

Though it certainly did a better job at representing a relationship than all other attempts before it. It wasn't really a flanderization in so much as it was an exaggeration. The elements of Sonic's personality which saw little to no representation beforehand (i.e snarky, corny and somewhat of a ham) were exaggerated to the point of parody. There is nothing wrong with that. This isn't flanderisation of anything.

If you want a flanderisation, go to fucking Sonic 06. Sonic had zero personality and achieved absolutely fucking nothing throughout the course of the game. If you removed Sonic and his story from the game, there would be little to no effect on the events of the rest of the game. Sonic's only function in 06 was to get killed at the end and trigger the release of Iblis. He played second fiddle to both Shadow and Silver, who were the only characters directly involved with Mephiles the central bad-guy of the plot.

That is flanderisation of a character. In fact, that game not only flanderises Sonic, but also flanderises Eggman, because he too, acheives absolutely jack shit during the course of the game. Then there is Knuckles and Tails, because they played second fiddle to a character who was playing second fiddle.

Whatever Colours is, I don't consider it flanderisation, because Sonic isn't represented in a bad light.

Black Knight's example can only be taken so far. It had a good story and good characterisation, but it was trying to achieve something totally different. For one thing Black Knight focused primarily on Sonic alone as a character. You had the Knights, but they weren't playing their usual roles and focus on them as a whole was rather limited. Colours tended to not focus on a single character, mostly on the relationship between Sonic and Tails and there aren't many ways you can fault its execution in that regard.

Moving away from characters, Black Knight had nary a single attempt at humour (some stuff was funny, but unintentionally) and if there was an intentional attempt at humour I certainly didn't find it funny. The whole of Black Knights plot was rather melancholy. Colours was totally opposite. There was nary a moment of seriousness and it was generally a much more lighthearted and jovial adventure. The moments where Colours was serious, namely the instance when Sonic throws Tails down the elevatory and when Tails gets hit by the mind-control beam, were pretty well executed, though they didn't last long and there weren't enough of them.

Comparing the two are like comparing a Renault Espace to the old Ranault F1. Both are cars, but both cars are designed to do very different things.

Dialogue has always been a mixed bag. Colours and Black Knight are probably the best, but both for very different reasons, as each script is trying to do something very different.

People too easily praise and too easily rag on Colours.

Colours took Sonic, exaggerated his mannerisms and write other traits as being different to what he had consistently shown before.

Consistantly what? Boring? I don't really recall Sonic's personality as being consistant at all.

SA1: Laid Back hero

SA2: Very aggressive for some reason and very, very cocky.

Sonic Heroes: A massive asshole "Talk about being stubborn and full of surprises"

Shadow: Extremely dependant for some reason. Why does he need Shadow's help? He's perfectly capable of doing shit himself.

Sonic06: Boring non-entity who has no function beyond going to another castle and dying.

Secret Rings: Not exactly sure exactly what he's like? I guess he's kind of channeling SA1....maybe...

Unleashed: Calm and friendly

Black Knight: Strongly principled

Colours: A bit of a joker. Most cartoon-like of any interpretation

Generations: Not really sure, because there wasn't much to go by.

Each game modifies his character slightly. Most blatant butchering of Sonic's character is Shadow and 06. The former warps him into being a little bitch who needs Shadow to do shit for him (as if he can't do it himself) and 06 where he needn't exist at all.

That's just Flanderization for the sake of the plot's tone, morphing Sonic to suit the whimsy.

Read example of 06. Greatly exaggerating aspects of Sonic's character while downplaying others isn't flanderisation. Using his face to promote a game which ultimately doesn't even need him to be there (try telling me what would be lost if Sonic didn't exist in 06) is what I call flanderisation.

The Storybook series proved that you could get whimsy and serious of Sonic without betraying his set characterization or exaggerating it or making him spout 'humorous' (Read: Really childish) one-liners that consume entire cutscenes and punt aside development.

There wasn't a single moment of whimsical or humour in the game, at least that I laughed at or remembered. For the most part the premise of Black Knight was very melancholy and Secret Rings wasn't particularly interesting.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Scar

[Kuzu]

Really?

Just because I liked Black Knight doesn't mean I don't have my problems with it, and its the same thing with Colors before you say anything.

Colours took Sonic, exaggerated his mannerisms and write other traits as being different to what he had consistently shown before. That's just Flanderization for the sake of the plot's tone, morphing Sonic to suit the whimsy.

How is Sonic being cocky being "different than what's shown before" it took a character flaw, and showed exactly why its a flaw to begin with instead of downplaying it to the point of non existence, flaws exist to humanize a character and make them relatable, if a flaw isn't noticable in a character it really shouldn't be there at all. I never liked how Sonic's flaws were downplayed just to accentuate his positive traits, it gives off really sueish vibes.

The Storybook series proved that you could get whimsy and serious of Sonic without betraying his set characterization or exaggerating it or making him spout 'humorous' (Read: Really childish) one-liners that consume entire cutscenes and punt aside development.

But his flaws and whimsy are barely noticeable, its definitely there but still very much downplayed.

There's nothing wrong with Sonic as a character or his personality. The problem is that either not enough is done to make use of his personality traits and therefore make him particularly interesting or his character is written very inconsistently.

That's more a problem with the plot than Sonic's character.

You can still be a Badass and have a personality.

Spider-Man is kinda like that...but its the fact that Sonic lacks the "badass" parts is what I dislike in Colors..

He outran a Black hole, how is that not badass?

Colours as a whole is pretty devisive.

Though it certainly did a better job at representing a relationship than all other attempts before it. It wasn't really a flanderization in so much as it was an exaggeration. The elements of Sonic's personality which saw little to no representation beforehand (i.e snarky, corny and somewhat of a ham) were exaggerated to the point of parody. There is nothing wrong with that. This isn't flanderisation of anything.

If you want a flanderisation, go to fucking Sonic 06. Sonic had zero personality and achieved absolutely fucking nothing throughout the course of the game. If you removed Sonic and his story from the game, there would be little to no effect on the events of the rest of the game. Sonic's only function in 06 was to get killed at the end and trigger the release of Iblis. He played second fiddle to both Shadow and Silver, who were the only characters directly involved with Mephiles the central bad-guy of the plot.

That is flanderisation of a character. In fact, that game not only flanderises Sonic, but also flanderises Eggman, because he too, acheives absolutely jack shit during the course of the game. Then there is Knuckles and Tails, because they played second fiddle to a character who was playing second fiddle.

Whatever Colours is, I don't consider it flanderisation, because Sonic isn't represented in a bad light.

Black Knight's example can only be taken so far. It had a good story and good characterisation, but it was trying to achieve something totally different. For one thing Black Knight focused primarily on Sonic alone as a character. You had the Knights, but they weren't playing their usual roles and focus on them as a whole was rather limited. Colours tended to not focus on a single character, mostly on the relationship between Sonic and Tails and there aren't many ways you can fault its execution in that regard.

Moving away from characters, Black Knight had nary a single attempt at humour (some stuff was funny, but unintentionally) and if there was an intentional attempt at humour I certainly didn't find it funny. The whole of Black Knights plot was rather melancholy. Colours was totally opposite. There was nary a moment of seriousness and it was generally a much more lighthearted and jovial adventure. The moments where Colours was serious, namely the instance when Sonic throws Tails down the elevatory and when Tails gets hit by the mind-control beam, were pretty well executed, though they didn't last long and there weren't enough of them.

Comparing the two are like comparing a Renault Espace to the old Ranault F1. Both are cars, but both cars are designed to do very different things.

Dialogue has always been a mixed bag. Colours and Black Knight are probably the best, but both for very different reasons, as each script is trying to do something very different.

People too easily praise and too easily rag on Colours.

Consistantly what? Boring? I don't really recall Sonic's personality as being consistant at all.

SA1: Laid Back hero

SA2: Very aggressive for some reason and very, very cocky.

Sonic Heroes: A massive asshole "Talk about being stubborn and full of surprises"

Shadow: Extremely dependant for some reason. Why does he need Shadow's help? He's perfectly capable of doing shit himself.

Sonic06: Boring non-entity who has no function beyond going to another castle and dying.

Secret Rings: Not exactly sure exactly what he's like? I guess he's kind of channeling SA1....maybe...

Unleashed: Calm and friendly

Black Knight: Strongly principled

Colours: A bit of a joker. Most cartoon-like of any interpretation

Generations: Not really sure, because there wasn't much to go by.

Each game modifies his character slightly. Most blatant butchering of Sonic's character is Shadow and 06. The former warps him into being a little bitch who needs Shadow to do shit for him (as if he can't do it himself) and 06 where he needn't exist at all.

Read example of 06. Greatly exaggerating aspects of Sonic's character while downplaying others isn't flanderisation. Using his face to promote a game which ultimately doesn't even need him to be there (try telling me what would be lost if Sonic didn't exist in 06) is what I call flanderisation.

There wasn't a single moment of whimsical or humour in the game, at least that I laughed at or remembered. For the most part the premise of Black Knight was very melancholy and Secret Rings wasn't particularly interesting.

Ya know this is actually a good way at looking at it. Both games are trying to achieve something completely different in terms of dialogue and plot, which isn't inconsistent at all, its just different. The series has never had a consistent tone and narrative, and probably never will.

[-Mark-]

Just for the record, there is a perfectly happy middle ground between 'badass' and 'one-liner-spouting-idiot'. I'm not saying I want Sonic to be a badass by any means; he's never meant to have been and never has been, really. Sure, he's had his badass moments, but his actual personality and character has never been particularly as such.

I just wish they'd stick more consistently to his actual, pre-established personality in English rather than having him fly all over the spectrum due to a combination of poor localisation and US writers who miss the point.

EDIT: Scar, regarding your argument against Sonic having a consistent personality, the issue here is again, poor localisation. It's a shame, because Sonic's basically been relatively consistent from day one going by the Japanese scripts/ voice actors. And in English, even ignoring the quality of translations, Sonic's had three different voice actors, each of whom will put their own spin on the character as well, which can only make consistency worse.

Edited March 3, 2012 by -Mark-

[Kuzu]

Just for the record, there is a perfectly happy middle ground between 'badass' and 'one-liner-spouting-idiot'. I'm not saying I want Sonic to be a badass by any means; he's never meant to have been and never has been, really. Sure, he's had his badass moments, but his actual personality and character has never been particularly as such.

I just wish they'd stick more consistently to his actual, pre-established personality in English rather than having him fly all over the spectrum due to a combination of poor localisation and US writers who miss the point.

EDIT: Scar, regarding your argument against Sonic having a consistent personality, the issue here is again, poor localisation. It's a shame, because Sonic's basically been relatively consistent from day one going by the Japanese scripts/ voice actors. And in English, even ignoring the quality of translations, Sonic's had three different voice actors, each of whom will put their own spin on the character as well, which can only make consistency worse.

If you want to be technical Sonic's American personality is somewhat pre-established too, its just established in the Archie comics more.

In any case, I don't see how one is worse than the other at this point, it really just comes down to preference.

[-Mark-]

If you want to be technical Sonic's American personality is somewhat pre-established too, its just established in the Archie comics more.

In any case, I don't see how one is worse than the other at this point, it really just comes down to preference.

Oh god, don't even bring Archie Sonic into this. Archie themselves basically have a huge disclaimer at the start of every single issue that practically says 'This has absolutely nothing to do with the game canon', so you can't really use that as a fair benchmark for the way they write Sonic in English in the games themselves.

[Scar]

EDIT: Scar, regarding your argument against Sonic having a consistent personality, the issue here is again, poor localisation. It's a shame, because Sonic's basically been relatively consistent from day one going by the Japanese scripts/ voice actors. And in English, even ignoring the quality of translations, Sonic's had three different voice actors, each of whom will put their own spin on the character as well, which can only make consistency worse.

Media is far worse, as well as personal interpretations.

Sonic is never really going to be consistant at all. For one, his character is broad enough to fit into a number of different types and can fulfill different roles. People always want consistancy, but they want consistancy with the version of Sonic they prefer.

Sonic's variations are natural given the variations in tone and themes of his various stories. That isn't about to change. In order to keep the series fresh with each installment, the stories are going to have a different tone. Not all of them are going to be Black Knight, not all are going to be Colours, not all are going to be SA2. Sonic himself hasn't changed much his core principles are there, the only variable, is which of his various facets they chose to focus on.

[Kuzu]

Oh god, don't even bring Archie Sonic into this. Archie themselves basically have a huge disclaimer at the start of every single issue that practically says 'This has absolutely nothing to do with the game canon', so you can't really use that as a fair benchmark for the way they write Sonic in English in the games themselves.

The character himself is very clearly based on America was marketing Sonic back in the day, so yes I can.

[-Mark-]

Sonic's variations are natural given the variations in tone and themes of his various stories. That isn't about to change. In order to keep the series fresh with each installment, the stories are going to have a different tone. Not all of them are going to be Black Knight, not all are going to be Colours, not all are going to be SA2. Sonic himself hasn't changed much his core principles are there, the only variable, is which of his various facets they chose to focus on.

True. It just annoys me that the current English writers seem to be focused solely on highlighting and magnifying one aspect of Sonic's personality to the point where it's making him cringeworthy and one-dimensional.

[Kuzu]

Media is far worse, as well as personal interpretations.

Sonic is never really going to be consistant at all. For one, his character is broad enough to fit into a number of different types and can fulfill different roles. People always want consistancy, but they want consistancy with the version of Sonic they prefer.

Sonic's variations are natural given the variations in tone and themes of his various stories. That isn't about to change. In order to keep the series fresh with each installment, the stories are going to have a different tone. Not all of them are going to be Black Knight, not all are going to be Colours, not all are going to be SA2. Sonic himself hasn't changed much his core principles are there, the only variable, is which of his various facets they chose to focus on.

A little consistency wouldn't hurt though, I don't think its really ideal for the series to be doing something completely different with its characters in every game, I mean how jarring would it be if one game had Sonic learn a lesson about something...and then that lesson is completely thrown out the window in the next game, it'd make the previous game completely pointless.

True. It just annoys me that the current English writers seem to be focused solely on highlighting and magnifying one aspect of Sonic's personality to the point where it's making him cringeworthy and one-dimensional.

Well to be fair, there isn't much for Sonic to do nowadays but be a cocky braggart, Generations took that away and he was even more one dimensional as a result.

[Vertekins]

If you want a flanderisation, go to fucking Sonic 06. Sonic had zero personality and achieved absolutely fucking nothing throughout the course of the game. If you removed Sonic and his story from the game, there would be little to no effect on the events of the rest of the game. Sonic's only function in 06 was to get killed at the end and trigger the release of Iblis. He played second fiddle to both Shadow and Silver, who were the only characters directly involved with Mephiles the central bad-guy of the plot.

That is flanderisation of a character. In fact, that game not only flanderises Sonic, but also flanderises Eggman, because he too, acheives absolutely jack shit during the course of the game. Then there is Knuckles and Tails, because they played second fiddle to a character who was playing second fiddle.

Do you know what Flanderization actually means?

It's the act of taking an initially subtle personality trait or mannerism of a character and exaggerating it more and more until it drowns out their other traits and consumes the character or the work in question.

Sonic in '06 isn't a victim of Flanderization, he's a victim of Out of Focus. for the vast majority of the game.

Whatever Colours is, I don't consider it flanderisation, because Sonic isn't represented in a bad light.

Being represented in a bad light =/= his traits being exaggerated.

Black Knight's example can only be taken so far. It had a good story and good characterisation, but it was trying to achieve something totally different. For one thing Black Knight focused primarily on Sonic alone as a character. You had the Knights, but they weren't playing their usual roles and focus on them as a whole was rather limited. Colours tended to not focus on a single character, mostly on the relationship between Sonic and Tails and there aren't many ways you can fault its execution in that regard.

And it focused on Caliburn. Their interactions are some of the wittiest and cleverest interactions I've seen in a Sonic game and that contributed to their overall characterizations and development. Caliburn goes from calling Sonic "Knave" and "Fool" and being overall irreverent of Sonic to gradually respecting his stance on matters after initially being scathing of them because Sonic's stance was ultimately the right way to go about things. Sonic's saving of the kid's folks and of Percival enlightened Caliburn to Sonic's knightliness, pretty much cementing his respect.

Moving away from characters, Black Knight had nary a single attempt at humour (some stuff was funny, but unintentionally) and if there was an intentional attempt at humour I certainly didn't find it funny. The whole of Black Knights plot was rather melancholy. Colours was totally opposite. There was nary a moment of seriousness and it was generally a much more lighthearted and jovial adventure. The moments where Colours was serious, namely the instance when Sonic throws Tails down the elevatory and when Tails gets hit by the mind-control beam, were pretty well executed, though they didn't last long and there weren't enough of them.

The intro? Floorplant running gag? Chili Dogs and what he does with them? Sonic's and Caliburn's snarkiness towards each other? Sonic saying in jest that abandoning Caliburn and running is a good idea when face to face with Lancelot?

Consistantly what? Boring? I don't really recall Sonic's personality as being consistant at all.

SA1: Laid Back hero

SA2: Very aggressive for some reason and very, very cocky.

Sonic Heroes: A massive asshole "Talk about being stubborn and full of surprises"

Shadow: Extremely dependant for some reason. Why does he need Shadow's help? He's perfectly capable of doing shit himself.

Sonic06: Boring non-entity who has no function beyond going to another castle and dying.

Secret Rings: Not exactly sure exactly what he's like? I guess he's kind of channeling SA1....maybe...

Unleashed: Calm and friendly

Black Knight: Strongly principled

Colours: A bit of a joker. Most cartoon-like of any interpretation

Generations: Not really sure, because there wasn't much to go by.

I thought that Sonic was frequently temperamental in SA. Sonic's character throughout the series is often a product of his circumstances. Frequent irritability in SA is likely because of his near-constant losses of Emeralds to Eggman and the shit he has to put up with during his story like the destruction of the Tornado and being forced into a bodyguard role for Amy and then seeing her get kidnapped. Not to mention he was seperated from Tails.

SA2? Very aggressive? He was pissed off at Shadow for framing him and saying that he's not even good enough to be his fake and very mocking of his claims of being the ULF (Check the story recap screen for the final Hero Side boss) but I saw no other signs of great aggression...

Heroes? An asshole? Where? He was fully willing to give his partners the acknowledgement and credit they deserve. And Sonic's "Talk about being stubborn and full of surprises" was bang on the nail in regards to Team Dark.

Shadow? Everyone was characterized as absolutely needing Shadow's help by the nature of the mission structure and likely by the nature of the game as a whole because it was basically one big ode to him without regard to anyone else's character.

Sonic '06? Agreed.

SatSR? His heroic resolve is quite well depicted and that typical Sonicky selflessness.

SatBK? Pretty much the ultimate amalgamation of Sonic's traits; The short temperedness, the kindness and yes, the prinicples. But it goes into detail WHY he has those principles; He plays by his own sense of right and wrong, he 'plays by his own rules' as indicated by his theme song's lyrics, he (Quite wisely) states that life would have no meaning if it went on forever hence why he did what he did amongst other reasons.

Each game modifies his character slightly. Most blatant butchering of Sonic's character is Shadow and 06. The former warps him into being a little bitch who needs Shadow to do shit for him (as if he can't do it himself) and 06 where he needn't exist at all.

Shadow morphs Sonic into being Shadow's bitch PERIOD. The Sonic & Diablon fight and it's aftermath is an accurate representation of Sonic's abilities and competence? Please...

In '06, as I said before, Sonic is a victim of Out of Focus and his story primarily involved a game of cat and mouse where he, Elise and Eggman run around in circles and get nothing of noteworthiness done.

There wasn't a single moment of whimsical or humour in the game, at least that I laughed at or remembered. For the most part the premise of Black Knight was very melancholy and Secret Rings wasn't particularly interesting.

SatBK only got melancholy near the end. Sure you had Merlina's "forlorn introspection" (As it is described in SatBK's gallery) when she mulled sadly over why flowers bloom when they're destined to wither. That lays her viewpoints out with great foreshadowing and purpose but it doesn't truly come into play until near the very end, so it's just a melancholy moment in a story that is mostly light-hearted.

SatSR...that one was fascinating because Sonic is never physically ok in that game and you're wondering on the first playhtrough how he's going to get out of this one, specifically the flame arrow curse and how the story makes it clear that Sonic is doomed either way whether he gathers the world rings of whether he doesn't. And yet his main concern isn't so much for himself as it is for Shahra despite his condition i.e It's a very good portrayal of his selflessness.

[-Mark-]

Well to be fair, there isn't much for Sonic to do nowadays but be a cocky braggart, Generations took that away and he was even more one dimensional as a result.

Japanese dialogue says hi. D:

[Kuzu]

Japanese dialogue says hi. D:

Well I don't know the Japanese dialogue, so I can't really judge.

And even so, the standards and values of what constitutes a good character are completely different between Japan and America.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Shadic Claus

[LoseR]

I get where you're coming from, honestly though, I never really saw this come up until Colors, and it continued with Generations.

Sonic used to be able to walk his talk, and he still can, but his WALK seems to be DELAYED by his TALK. Sonic is known for taking action, and talking later, at least... he was. Nowadays he just can't seem to shut his mouth.

Also, Sonic's statements might have been clever 20 years ago (he didn't even talk then), but now they just come off as chessy and silly. I know it seems silly, but I think Sonic would be considered cooler if he said things that kids nowadays say. I'm still waiting for Sonic to say "brah".

LONG TIME NO SEE... BRAH!

I'm half serious about this.

Oh yeah, and he doesn't really have any attitude...

I'm really late to this party it seems, and I kind of feel like I'm just restating thing, but whatever....

[Kuzu]

I get where you're coming from, honestly though, I never really saw this come up until Colors, and it continued with Generations.

Sonic used to be able to walk his talk, and he still can, but his WALK seems to be DELAYED by his TALK. Sonic is known for taking action, and talking later, at least... he was. Nowadays he just can't seem to shut his mouth.

Also, Sonic's statements might have been clever 20 years ago (he didn't even talk then), but now they just come off as chessy and silly. I know it seems silly, but I think Sonic would be considered cooler if he said things that kids nowadays say. I'm still waiting for Sonic to say "brah".

LONG TIME NO SEE... BRAH!

I'm half serious about this.

Oh yeah, and he doesn't really have any attitude...

I'm really late to this party it seems, and I kind of feel like I'm just restating thing, but whatever....

...Yeah, forcing Sonic to be "cool" and "hip" is probably going to get him more hatred than anything.

[LoseR]

...Yeah, forcing Sonic to be "cool" and "hip" is probably going to get him more hatred than anything.

That's why I said I was half serious. The serious part being Sonic needs to a bit more up to date in in his diologue.

The rest was a joke...

[-Mark-]

Well I don't know the Japanese dialogue, so I can't really judge.

And even so, the standards and values of what constitutes a good character are completely different between Japan and America.

No offence intended and with all due respect, just because you don't know it doesn't mean it's not there and therefore the things it does aren't possible in English as well; the English scripts have just made a conscious decision to turn Sonic into the one-dimensional annoyance that he's become since Colours, and that's what annoys me, really.

Okay, fair enough, Sonic made a couple of wisecracks in Japanese Colours, and some scenes (i.e. talking to the dead robot) had to at least match the on-screen animation in context, but in general the humour in Japanese Sonic is much wittier and less likely to induce facepalms.

Edited March 3, 2012 by -Mark-

[Amomynous]

Whilst I think 'stunts' and 'asskicking' are good, I really think how Sonic behaves is more important,

I may sound like a certain cartoon character when I say your confusing awesomeness with coolness, but frankly you are, what you are describing, the feats, the stunts, the asskickery, does not make him 'cool', it helps, but your forgetting something big; he is not his feats, and neither is cool, he is his personality, and cool boils down to this; dignity,composure,bravery.

Recently I complained about his apparent missing dignity (which is recent, as of Sonic colours, otherwise I can only think of Sonic Heroes), coming down to the fact he 'talks alot without saying anything', his exaggerated hammyness, corniness,as well as just how bad his quips are,like seriously, we're supposed to think that's witty? Then I realised, of what Sonic is in Generations isn't actually as bad, he never when on-and-on-and-on like the "did someone order a clobbering?" 'joke' and didn't make loads of rubbish jokes either, maybe it just needs to be kept down to a certain level while he acts more graceful and recognisable elsewhere.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Mysterics

[Kuzu]

No offence intended and with all due respect, just because you don't know it doesn't mean it's not there and therefore the things it does aren't possible in English as well; the English scripts have just made a conscious decision to turn Sonic into the one-dimensional annoyance that he's become since Colours, and that's what annoys me, really.

Okay, fair enough, Sonic made a couple of wisecracks in Japanese Colours, and some scenes (i.e. talking to the dead robot) had to at least match the on-screen animation in context, but in general the humour in Japanese Sonic is much wittier and less likely to induce facepalms.

Well you keep saying these thing, but I don't see you showing me any results, if you claim the Japanese script gives Sonic a much better representation than please show me so I can judge.

[Salamander]

Well, I'm pretty sure in Unleashed the whole point is to collect Gaia keys and then to reach the temples to re-energize the Chaos Emeralds...

Maybe I recollect wrong, but as I remember it, the Gaia Temples existed only in cutscenes and the Gaia Keys only in menus. That is an example of the exact opposite of gameplay and story integration. The gameplay is meaningless running through landscapes, and plot exists only in cutscenes. The two in practice have nothing to do with each other, although it's not as blatant as it was in Generations. I think the final boss is a good exception, though. Running along the Gaia Colossus while Dark Gaia's tentacles crash through the landscape - that's plot creating gameplay.

A good guideline for this is whether you can take all the cutscenes out of a game, glue them together, and be able to understand the entire plot from just that. Or, conversely, whether you can take all the cutscenes and menus out of a game, just stick the levels together in sequence, and be able to understand any of the plot from that. If the two - the gameplay and the cutscenes - aren't dependent on one another, if there's no real connection between them, then of course one side is going to feel irrelevant (which probably depends on a player's personal preference).

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Black Spy's OP may be overanalytical, but to be honest, I think it nails the issue right on the head.

Now while Sonic can talk the talk, we don't see him walk the walk very much to match it. As good as Colors was, there weren't very many badass moments in the game compared to Sonic talking. Sure there were some funny moments, but badass...eh. Might have been because of the tone they were going for, but I have no idea what they were restricted in going for.

Generations tho. It's odd, because that had a similar amount of plot as Colors did, maybe less so. Classic Sonic running straight towards the Death Egg fight is a good example, but then people tend to overrate what they've been waiting years to get. And after finally getting Classic Sonic, people looked at that as a outlet to subtly (or blatantly) bash Modern Sonic by comparison.

Although, we have to be careful in terms of making him a badass. You can't just build upon the adrenaline each moment and not find a cooling point, because otherwise your audience becomes nothing more than adrenaline junkies for the plot.

[KHCast]

Actually one of the most epic things in generations i think sonic did was after he destroyed the egg dragoon. His actions just came off as epic. Kind of badass. It just captured sonic. I mean that smirk and everything. That reminds me of something Classic would do. More stuff like that plus a bit of dialogue would be awesome for his characterization.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b12w-ysGJF8

Edited March 3, 2012 by Hedgehogs Boost