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Attitude Adjustment


Rusty Spy

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Actually one of the most epic things in generations i think sonic did was after he destroyed the egg dragoon. His actions just came off as epic. Kind of badass. It just captured sonic. I mean that smirk and everything. That reminds me of something Classic would do. More stuff like that plus a bit of dialogue would be awesome for his characterization.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b12w-ysGJF8

Actually I agree, all of the pre rival/boss fight cutscenes with Modern Sonic showed him not uttering a single word, looking determined, and showing off several feats of badassery, stuff like that id like to see more of.

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Actually I agree, all of the pre rival/boss fight cutscenes with Modern Sonic showed him not uttering a single word, looking determined, and showing off several feats of badassery, stuff like that id like to see more of.

This though has to be the most badass i've seen sonic in ages though! Look at this! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FPM2LqD5NE That just seemed "I'm a badass!" And yes all the rival/boss cutscenes definitely characterized sonic pretty well.
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Well you keep saying these thing, but I don't see you showing me any results, if you claim the Japanese script gives Sonic a much better representation than please show me so I can judge.

English Script: "Time to scramble some Eggman, Super Sonic Style!"

Japanese Script: "Now the real fight starts, take a look at our power" (rough literal translation, basically "That was nothing, now we'll show you what we've really got").

That's the biggest example I can think of, because it's one where I'm completely sure what's being said in Japanese (and also the English dialogue there is horrific). As I said in the status updates earlier, my biggest issue with the current English dialogue is that it tries too hard to seem 'cool' and cocky (i.e. "You and what moustache?", "No copyright law in the universe is going to stop me", etc etc- not 100% sure on the Japanese for those lines), whereas the Japanese dialogue sounds a lot more natural and normal. The 'cool' English dialogue comes off as pitifully forced and unnatural to the point where it's just cringeworthy, embarrassing and painfully cheesy, at least in my opinion.

Also, as Verte pointed out in the status updates earlier as well, all of Tails' translator jokes in Colours were outright painful in English. If the script for that game was indeed written in English first, it's quite baffling how they managed to make the jokes make far more sense in Japanese, since it was confusing words for similar-sounding words, rather than coming up with absolutely unrelated (and painfully unfunny) nonsense for erroneous translations. At least for the most part, anyway. I suppose porpoise/ purpose is passable, although that was probably about the only instance.

Edited by -Mark-
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English Script: "Time to scramble some Eggman, Super Sonic Style!"

Japanese Script: "Now the real fight starts, take a look at our power" (rough literal translation, basically "That was nothing, now we'll show you what we've really got").

That's the biggest example I can think of, because it's one where I'm completely sure what's being said in Japanese (and also the English dialogue there is horrific). As I said in the status updates earlier, my biggest issue with the current English dialogue is that it tries too hard to seem 'cool' and cocky (i.e. "You and what moustache?", "No copyright law in the universe is going to stop me", etc etc- not 100% sure on the Japanese for those lines), whereas the Japanese dialogue sounds a lot more natural and normal. The 'cool' English dialogue comes off as pitifully forced and unnatural to the point where it's just cringeworthy, embarrassing and painfully cheesy, at least in my opinion.

Kind of not feeling this, since it can go both ways. The latter sounds like a generic, cookie-cutter line from a Dragonball Z knock-off, something I've heavily disliked about dialogue in past Sonic games and why he just isn't memorable at all to me, or why I don't buy him being a stand-out character. Lines like those teeter on the brink of the same cringeworthy nature that "real super power of teamwork" also had.

If you ask me, the former is better for the sole reason that it's less wordy and more to-the-point like Sonic is known to be, especially when Sonic spent a big portion of both Colors and Generations joking about every situation presented. It struck me as a very "gloves are off/no more games" type of line after getting his ass handed to him.

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There are innumerable examples of the Japanese writing being more on the serious side, (but still cocky and funny, and almost always more well-written,) so while that's true and I'm a huge proponent of the Japanese characterizations, the main issue that we should be discussing is SEGA of America's chosen method of writing the characters. Seeing as we all speak English, that is the most important point. Sure, I play the games in Japanese because I can understand them, but even I see the pointlessness in continuously saying WELL THE JAPANESE SCRIPT DOESN'T SUCK LIKE THAT. Because obviously more people here play it in English, and that is the part of Sonic's characterization a lot of us seem to have a beef with. I think THE POINT that they change the dialogue should be KEPT IN MIND, as an original version (Japanese) does exist. But overall the issue is the English-written adaptation of the character of Sonic.

Also, you may think lines come across as generic in Japanese, but you're forgetting that Sonic speaks with his own language-based mannerisms that are unrecognizable and undetectable through English translation. There are many ways of phrasing something in Japanese that can communicate attitude and cockiness, among other things, while still SAYING the same thing. Which is also the same exact way English works. Basically, there is /no way/ to properly compare and explain the differences between the Japanese and English unless everyone in the discussion can understand the subtleties of both languages. So enough about that already, please.

Edited by ChaoChao
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This can go back and forth for hours. Colours and the way it handles dialogue has always been divisive.

I still think of it as an improvement over the totally generic scripts of the past. Yeah it may well be trying to hard to be cool, but at least its trying to be something. There is no doubt, however, that Colours' handling of Tails and Sonic's brotherhood is second to none. The jokes may have felt forced and "unnatural", but Sonic and Tails' interactions were anything but. They felt closer to being actual brothers than ever before.

Anyway, we can talk back and forth for hours and never reach a conclusion. Some prefer Sonic to behave like a cartoon character, and some people to prefer him to have more anime tendencies.

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Also, you may think lines come across as generic in Japanese, but you're forgetting that Sonic speaks with his own language-based mannerisms that are unrecognizable and undetectable through English translation. There are many ways of phrasing something in Japanese that can communicate attitude and cockiness, among other things, while still SAYING the same thing. Which is also the same exact way English works. Basically, there is /no way/ to properly compare and explain the differences between the Japanese and English unless everyone in the discussion can understand the subtleties of both languages. So enough about that already, please.

I'm not entirely sure who and what you're arguing for here. If it was directed towards me then it seems the point I was making has apparently flown over your head spectacularly; almost to a point where it seems like you're pretty much arguing for me, not against me.

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I'm not entirely sure who and what you're arguing for here. If it was directed towards me then it seems the point I was making has apparently flown over your head spectacularly; almost to a point where it seems like you're pretty much arguing for me, not against me.

Quite the contrary, the point has flown over your head. I'm not arguing for or against anything, I'm saying there is absolutely no point in comparing them. I also wasn't talking to anyone specifically, that is why I did not quote you.

Edited by ChaoChao
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Oh no, I definitely got your point, and I agree with what you were implying. That doesn't stop the fact that I felt that line of discussion was directed towards my comment of that said line being generic in the context given to it, and I am plentifully aware that the Western and Japanese masses have entirely different ways of perception and interaction. That's the reason I only quoted part of your post, not all of it.

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Oh no, I definitely got your point, and I agree with what you were implying. That doesn't stop the fact that I felt that line of discussion was directed towards my comment of that said line being generic in the context given to it, and that I am plentifully aware that the Western and Japanese masses have entirely different ways of perception and interaction. That's the reason I only quoted part of your post, not all of it.

If you got my point, then why say you're confused at what I'm getting at? Ok, fair enough, you thought it was directed at you. However, again, it was really to explain to anyone here who thinks the example line given by -Mark- sounds far less interesting than the "adapted for English audiences" line it became.

Edit: Fun fact for anyone who cares, the name Yacker calls Eggman that became "Baldy McNosehair" was originally "Mustachioed Boiled Egg." tongue.png

Edited by ChaoChao
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If you got my point, then why say you're confused at what I'm getting at? Ok, fair enough, you thought it was directed at you. However, again, it was really to explain to anyone here who thinks the example line given by -Mark- sounds far less interesting than the "adapted for English audiences" line it became.

You pretty much answered your own question there. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that one.

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You pretty much answered your own question there. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough on that one.

I was making the point that I feel it should have been self-explanatory from the beginning.. =P Either way, sorry if I wasn't clear enough either. Moving on..

Edited by ChaoChao
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Actually I agree, all of the pre rival/boss fight cutscenes with Modern Sonic showed him not uttering a single word, looking determined, and showing off several feats of badassery, stuff like that id like to see more of.

It'd be better if he just said a single one liner on the subject and left it at that. The problem with Colors is that it would take a joke, and beat it into the ground until its just not funny anymore, that I will agree Colors did very badly. Like if he just said "Too Easy" in the smuggest tone ever after that fight, it would've been even more badass.

Sonic shouldn't talk if he doesn't need to, not that I want his dialogue cut down, but he doesn't need to be going on for 30 seconds on the same joke, just say what you gotta say and whup some ass.

English Script: "Time to scramble some Eggman, Super Sonic Style!"

Japanese Script: "Now the real fight starts, take a look at our power" (rough literal translation, basically "That was nothing, now we'll show you what we've really got").

That's the biggest example I can think of, because it's one where I'm completely sure what's being said in Japanese (and also the English dialogue there is horrific). As I said in the status updates earlier, my biggest issue with the current English dialogue is that it tries too hard to seem 'cool' and cocky (i.e. "You and what moustache?", "No copyright law in the universe is going to stop me", etc etc- not 100% sure on the Japanese for those lines), whereas the Japanese dialogue sounds a lot more natural and normal. The 'cool' English dialogue comes off as pitifully forced and unnatural to the point where it's just cringeworthy, embarrassing and painfully cheesy, at least in my opinion.

Also, as Verte pointed out in the status updates earlier as well, all of Tails' translator jokes in Colours were outright painful in English. If the script for that game was indeed written in English first, it's quite baffling how they managed to make the jokes make far more sense in Japanese, since it was confusing words for similar-sounding words, rather than coming up with absolutely unrelated (and painfully unfunny) nonsense for erroneous translations. At least for the most part, anyway. I suppose porpoise/ purpose is passable, although that was probably about the only instance.

Carbo pretty much nailed it. That line sounds like some generic shonen crap, which is honestly just as boring as the American dialogue, so it can really go both ways.

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I don't think Sonic should be absolutely mute, but I definitely wouldn't mind if he talked a bit less. I'm all for the whole "actions speak louder than words" thing. I'd like to see Sonic more like this again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAFB_2PSvQA

After escaping the deadly collapse of Eggman's base and saving Amy Rose's life, Sonic sets her down and speeds off without saying a word. I personally think that's one of Sonic's coolest moments ever.

I have to admit though, I did still like the story in Colors quite a bit for what it was...

Edited by mikeblastdude
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You know what could the source of Sonic's problems just be that their trying to make a supposed Japanese persona likable in America?

Good example being that the Sonic fans in Japan...from what I have seen...correct me if I'm wrong...ate up Sonic 2006 story. They loved it...while we are like..."wtf? is going on".

I think this is the source of the problem here....Sonic trying to appease personality wise to 2 different demographics at once so his dialogue just comes off at awkward on both sides.

We think Sonic too corny while the Japanese think Sonic too Americanized...maybe that's the reason for such the lack of interest in Japan.

Which is funny since this could all be remedied with Sonic talking less...XD

Edited by Voy-Boy
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You know what could the source of Sonic's problems just be that their trying to make a supposed Japanese persona likable in America?

Good example being that the Sonic fans in Japan...from what I have seen...correct me if I'm wrong...ate up Sonic 2006 story. They loved it...while we are like..."wtf? is going on".

I think this is the source of the problem here....Sonic trying to appease personality wise to 2 different demographics at once so his dialogue just comes off at awkward on both sides.

We think Sonic too corny while the Japanese think Sonic too Americanized...maybe that's the reason for such the lack of interest in Japan.

Which is funny since this could all be remedied with Sonic talking less...XD

Japan's idea of a good character is basically a Goku expy of some kind, while we have different standards.

This is definitely new, Sonic seems out of place in literally two mediums; Most Americans probably find him to whitebread, while Japan probably thinks he too westernized.

My problem with Sonic talking less is that I kind of think its robbing him of a personal trait, I mean he's a speedster, how many speedsters do you know that AREN't motor mouths? Sonic is no exception; I like to see Sonic having fun doing what he does instead of approaching every situation with the same stone faced determination.

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The problem with Sonic having anything the Japanese find interesting is the fact that Sonic never really sold well in Japan since the Genesis, at least in comparison to the West. Yeah, I'm using VGCharts for that and I know the deal behind them (somewhat), but it's the only source I have available to present.

I honestly can't say you'd make Sonic anymore likable to the Japanese unless you went more of the DBZ route...and I would discourage that because we've seen a bit too much of it.

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I honestly can't say you'd make Sonic anymore likable to the Japanese unless you went more of the DBZ route...and I would discourage that because we've seen a bit too much of it.

That and its cliched as fuck.

Ironically enough Shadow was popular as the 2nd most popular character meaning I don;t think Japan care much about cliches.

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I don't particularly mind cliches myself. My problem with them mainly comes from how blatant they're made out to be.

If you made something that emulates off another, and yet it offers it's own unique spice to the recipe, then bravo you've made it less of a cliche. If you take something that makes it so obvious that you flat out rip-off from another series, then you clearly need to add something unique.

Eh, I probably didn't say that right, but hopefully you know what I meant.

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To be honest though what isn't cliche nowadays?

I rather do something cliche and excel at it...than be stuck in limbo with a bad taste in everyone mouth. Its because ST doesn't want to do anything cliche is why we are stuck with them having a condom wrapped tightly around Sonic that they are not going to take off any time soon due to the fan base being so over critical.

The thing about "stories" is that even some of the best stories ever written are not going to please everyone.

If you don't use some cliches then your stuck with a boring as fuck character all the same. If you don't think the entertainment industry is running out of ideas...just look at movies...how many of them are remakes of something nowadays? The gaming industry is running out of ideas too...so there is going to be a line were we are going to, as a fanbase, settle with...unless you want to settle with Sonic games having shit boring atmospheres for the rest of the franchise

There is nothing wrong using a cliche....is all on the execution of said cliche is what matters. A recent a great example of this is Chronicle...that just recently came out...while its not the best thing ever..it executed a cliche of super powered teens rather well and felt very fresh.

Edit:

Also a very important thing that we must all remember is Sonic is franchise that is supposed to appease to large demographic of people, but right now the lead target is children. Kids growing up right now are new to all these cliches that we discuss...they don't know what cliche is because they don't have something to fall back upon...to those of us of higher age we need to understand that as well.

What may be boring as fuck to us...may be the coolest shit ever to someone at the age of 10-13.

Edited by Voy-Boy
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Like CSS said, there's nothing wrong with Cliches, as long as they're not blatant and played painfully straight; Like someone went over to Tvtropes and checked off what tropes they want to use.

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Like CSS said, there's nothing wrong with Cliches, as long as they're not blatant and played painfully straight; Like someone went over to Tvtropes and checked off what tropes they want to use.

I think TV tropes can apply to anything and anyone...no matter how "original" of a plot you make. You can check of a list of tropes you want to use, but again at the end is how you use them in a characterization of someone. Some tropes have been done really shitty while some have been done excellently.

Edited by Voy-Boy
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I think TV tropes can apply to anything and anyone...no matter how "original" of a plot you make. You can check of a list of tropes you want to use, but again at the end is how you use them in a characterization of someone. Some tropes have been done really shitty while some have been done excellently.

In other words, tropes are tools, basically.

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Carbo pretty much nailed it. That line sounds like some generic shonen crap, which is honestly just as boring as the American dialogue, so it can really go both ways.

I guess this is just where personal preference comes in. Personally I'd much rather take generic shonen crap over painfully unfunny one-liners that make me want to facepalm to a degree that could risk concussion.

Yes, I'll admit, the Japanese lines certainly do sound more generic and arguably 'boring'; but in my opinion, that's also their strength, in that they sound more normal. Generic in this case works both ways; sure, the lines don't particularly stand out, but at the same time it means they're totally inoffensive.

I'd much prefer reserved, ordinary dialogue over "OH HEY GUYS I'M MAKING LAME CONTEXTUAL JOKES ABOUT BALD PEOPLE AND EGGS. EVERY. FIVE. SECONDS."

Edited by -Mark-
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Japan's idea of a good character is basically a Goku expy of some kind, while we have different standards.

Then why isn't Goku being ripped off left and right? Plus, I sorta like Goku, it's just he's established as a silly goofball and Sonic isn't.

I mean of course, Sonic is a kiddy cartoon character, one of a cute furry animal that was portrayed as an extreeeme coooool dude with tude, of course there's something silly about that, and I don't mind if Sonic Team want to poke fun at him for that, but it has to be there for them to make fun of it...

My problem with Sonic talking less is that I kind of think its robbing him of a personal trait, I mean he's a speedster, how many speedsters do you know that AREN't motor mouths? Sonic is no exception; I like to see Sonic having fun doing what he does instead of approaching every situation with the same stone faced determination.

He wasn't that​ much of a motormouth before, and generally what he said meant something, as opposed to 'talking without saying anything' plus, in Sonic Colours and Generations , he doesn't really seem to enjoy it that much any-more, he has a very "meh....nothing special." approach to his adventures recently.

In more direct response, does he really have to follow Personality Powers to absolute T?

Edited by Mysterics
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