Jump to content
Awoo.

Attitude Adjustment


Rusty Spy

Recommended Posts

I guess this is just where personal preference comes in. Personally I'd much rather take generic shonen crap over painfully unfunny one-liners that make me want to facepalm to a degree that could risk concussion.

Yes, I'll admit, the Japanese lines certainly do sound more generic and arguably 'boring'; but in my opinion, that's also their strength, in that they sound more normal. Generic in this case works both ways; sure, the lines don't particularly stand out, but at the same time it means they're totally inoffensive.

I'd much prefer reserved, ordinary dialogue over "OH HEY GUYS I'M MAKING LAME CONTEXTUAL JOKES ABOUT BALD PEOPLE AND EGGS. EVERY. FIVE. SECONDS."

His jokes are so severely toned down in Generations that if you still hate how he acts in there, than I just think you're exaggerating. My problem with the Japanese dialogue, is that their too, normal, its like you said there's nothing interesting about them, nothing to grab onto, nothing stands out. It just makes Sonic seem like a boring everyman, when he's been shown he have a lot more personality beyond "Hero who saves the day", yeah I'll take the corny goofball over the average everyman any day of the week, even if I hate the former's personality, at least I can feel something towards them instead of just being indifferent.

And to be entirely fair, Sonic didn't spend every cutscene making lame jokes in Colors, in fact out of the 23 or so cutscenes I think about 3-4 were dedicated to those jokes, so I think people are over exaggerating how bad things are again.

Then why isn't Goku being ripped off left and right? Plus, I sorta like Goku, it's just he's established as a silly goofball and Sonic isn't.

I mean of course, Sonic is a kiddy cartoon character, one of a cute furry animal that was portrayed as an extreeeme coooool dude with tude, of course there's something silly about that, and I don't mind if Sonic Team want to poke fun at him for that, but it has to be there for them to make fun of it...

...What?

He wasn't that​ much of a motormouth before, and generally what he said meant something, as opposed to 'talking without saying anything' plus, in Sonic Colours and Generations , he doesn't really seem to enjoy it that much any-more, he has a very "meh....nothing special." approach to his adventures recently.

Yes, because lines like "No low budget flights" totally have deep meaning.

In more direct response, does he really have to follow Personality Powers to absolute T?

I don't see why he has to be the most average guy in the series? Especially if he's the main character, the guy whom we're supposed to empathize and see the view point of, I mean come on he needs some interesting traits beyond the generic hero ones.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, I do agree, it wasn't so much Sonic's dialogue in Colours that bothered me, more the fact that there was pretty much no plot at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, I do agree, it wasn't so much Sonic's dialogue in Colours that bothered me, more the fact that there was pretty much no plot at all.

Well there is a plot, otherwise Sonic & Tails would've never gone to the park in the first place, its just underplayed and doesn't take itself seriously at all. If the plot isn't taken seriously, the characters aren't going to be taken seriously.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, I do agree, it wasn't so much Sonic's dialogue in Colours that bothered me, more the fact that there was pretty much no plot at all.

Sonic Colors was playing it safe, due to the recent failures.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't particularly mind cliches myself. My problem with them mainly comes from how blatant they're made out to be.

If you made something that emulates off another, and yet it offers it's own unique spice to the recipe, then bravo you've made it less of a cliche. If you take something that makes it so obvious that you flat out rip-off from another series, then you clearly need to add something unique.

Eh, I probably didn't say that right, but hopefully you know what I meant.

Basically what you're saying is that there's a difference between a character who's BASED on a stereotype, and a character who IS a stereotype, right? Because I can get behind that statement.

I prefer Sonic in his most recent games, although admittedly I wouldn't mind it if he toned down the stupid lines just a smidge and acted like he gave a shit once in a while- not so much because I don't like it, but because when the characters are just acting too goofy and nonchalant about something, everything starts to feel less important in the story. Not that I want Sonic games to be 'serious' or have overbearing stories, mind you.

And it'd be nice if he did do more cool stuff in the cutscenes, so long as it wasn't taking away from something he could be doing in gameplay. But whether the scenes are filled with ACTION or just regular dialogue doesn't really have much to do with Sonic as a character as much as it does how the scenes are directed and divided up.

Then why isn't Goku being ripped off left and right? Plus, I sorta like Goku, it's just he's established as a silly goofball and Sonic isn't.

Sonic Colors was playing it safe, due to the recent failures.

Yeah we kinda have to remember that whenever a Sonic game makes its plot a big focus it doesn't end up getting received well. The plot of a Sonic game is usually a point of ridicule.

Not saying that's a reason to not have plot though. Just rationalizing.

Edited by Solly
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sonic Colors was playing it safe, due to the recent failures.

Sonic games tend to do a lot better when they don't take themselves seriously, at all. Even Colors seems to be more favorably looked at than say, Sa2.

But everyone knows Sonic Colors sucks because it doesn't take itself seriously, Sonic plots can only be good when they're taken seriously as can be for this series.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But everyone knows Sonic Colors sucks because it doesn't take itself seriously, Sonic plots can only be good when they're taken seriously as can be for this series.

I've always liked Sonic Colors, but I have to agree, the plot is pretty lame.

Edited by Winston
Link to comment
Share on other sites

...What?

Trying to say

1.I don't see 'Goku expies' as being common

2. It isn't that I don't like 'goofy characters' but Sonic shouldn't be one primarily.

3. I don't mind if Sonic is poked fun at, after all ,his concept (the extreme cooool dude thing) is silly, but it just seems that concept is petered out in favour of him just being silly.

Yes, because lines like "No low budget flights" totally have deep meaning.

Not saying he shouldn't have corny quip lines, it just seemed in colours that he just went on, until he was beating a dead horse.

I don't see why he has to be the most average guy in the series? Especially if he's the main character, the guy whom we're supposed to empathize and see the view point of, I mean come on he needs some interesting traits beyond the generic hero ones.

What, how does 'not fitting the cliche to an absolute T' manage to translate into 'being the most average and uninteresting?' You really think him being 'GOTTA GO FAST" in every...single..aspect is the only option besides an everyman?

Edited by Mysterics
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Basically saying;

1.I don't see 'Goku expies' as being common

They might not be common any more, but I certainly find them boring as fuck.

2. I was trying to say it not that I don't like 'goofy characters' but Sonic shouldn't be one of them.

Yeah, nobody will ever come to an agreement on this one.

3. I don't mind if Sonic is poked fun at, after all ,his concept (cute, fuzzy, cooool dude with tude) is silly, but it just seems that concept is gone in favour of him just being silly.

Sonic has always been silly. The only thing that has changed, is the intention. From SA1 to 06, Sonic was unintentionally silly. He was trying to be serious and dramatic, but failing horribly and came off as a lame jackass at the best of times. Colours intended Sonic to be a little silly. Not saying one is worse than the other, but generally speaking, at least to me, sounding silly because that's what is intended, comes off a whole lot better than trying to be serious and ending up sounding like a total moron.

What, how does 'not fitting the cliche to an absolute T' manage to translate into 'being the most average and uninteresting?' You really think him being 'GOTTA GO FAST" in every...single..aspect is the only option opposed to an everyman?

I don't even know what you're trying to say here....

However, Sonic being a little bit of a ham and sarcastic is a whole lot more interesting them him literally having nothing more to his personality than "Hi, I'm Sonic...Sonic the hedgehog". He was essentially "Mr. I-Can-Do-No-Wrong" hero who saves the day.

The only game to play him in a different light really was Black Knight and Colours. The former suggested he would go against anything to fight for what he believes is right, the latter had him be interesting in fighting Eggman because he found it fun, remarking that he went about it with such regularity that it may well become his fulltime job.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sonic didn't spend every cutscene making lame jokes in Colors, in fact out of the 23 or so cutscenes I think about 3-4 were dedicated to those jokes, so I think people are over exaggerating how bad things are again.

Thing is though, Sonic didn't really do anything else throughout the story.

Yes, because lines like "No low budget flights" totally have deep meaning.

Not meaningful, but this what I attribute to Sonic having a cool moment. Like I said in the OP, it's the quality of his lines that matters, whether it be meaningful or just well written, and that's the difference between the dialogue in SA2 and the dialogue in Colors.

Sonic plots can only be good when they're taken seriously as can be for this series

Serious or wacky, the story is only as good as the writing. I'd take a dark story with good writing over a goofy story that sounds like something out of a kindergartens book, and vice versa.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thing is though, Sonic didn't really do anything else throughout the story.

What constitutes as "doing something" because if I recall the entire game was dedicated to freeing planets one by one, or does it have to be in a cutscene to count because the entire ending was his doing then.

Not meaningful, but this what I attribute to Sonic having a cool moment. Like I said in the OP, it's the quality of his lines that matters, whether it be meaningful or just well written, and that's the difference between the dialogue in SA2 and the dialogue in Colors.

What quality is in that line thought? How does it attribute to Sonic's character as "meaningful" its a cheesy one liner, the same types of one liners that you seem to be deriding him for, so please tell me what's the difference and how one is better than the other.

Serious or wacky, the story is only as good as the writing. I'd take a dark story with good writing over a goofy story that sounds like something out of a kindergartens book, and vice versa.

Except no previous Sonic game has had what I would call "good writing", even Sa2 has serious faults, and if that's your definition of good writing in the series than I have to respectfully disagree and say Colors beats it by a long shot, it may not be as serious and is defintely childish, but that's where the charm comes from and it has fun with it, whereas in Sa2 the story is definitely serious, but more than a few fuck ups in the script to really be called good.

Edited by Shadic Claus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

*pokes head into topic*

Just throwing my two cents (that no one asked for) into the equation, but I feel that the vast majority of what Sonic does that could be deemed as cool is simply overlooked these days. Between Unleashed, Secret Rings, Black Knight and even Colors - there is quite a bit of "Badass" and "cool" in there to mull over. Its just ignored in favor of pimping out hate for jokes about underwear or Baldy McNosehair.

Whenever I hear people say things like "Sonic needs to do this and this" to be cool again, I just sit back and review what we've seen the last few games.

kdwjfr.png

nz2ahl.png

Sonic is soooooo BadAss when he wants to be. This issue shouldn't be about changing Sonic's attitude, it should be just letting him cut loose with his personality and miss no opportunity to showboat in epic fashion.

  • Thumbs Up 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thing is though, Sonic didn't really do anything else throughout the story.

That doesn't really consitute a problem in the characterisation, rather an innate limitation in the plot of the story.

Not meaningful, but this what I attribute to Sonic having a cool moment. Like I said in the OP, it's the quality of his lines that matters, whether it be meaningful or just well written, and that's the difference between the dialogue in SA2 and the dialogue in Colors.

Though it is a subjective issue, I don't consider SA2's dialogue to be good at all let alone being better than that of Colours. I personally feel that because SA2 had a much more involving story (not talking about the writing, just the plot) that it provides the illusion that the writing is better than it is, or something. Because you're more interested in what is going on you tend not to notice dodgy dialogue and such.

Serious or wacky, the story is only as good as the writing. I'd take a dark story with good writing over a goofy story that sounds like something out of a kindergartens book, and vice versa.

That implies that the dark stories have good writing (which they really don't, at all) and that colours has bad writing, which I don't think it does). If a story is only as good as its writing, then none of the stories thus far are even close to being mediocre, let alone good. Colours, at least to me, is the only game to achieve what it set out to do, and that is make a relatively amusing plot for kids. All the other serious business plots all failed at being serious because the frankly laughable dialogue and abysmal writing. The only one which came close to success was Black Knight, and even then it's writing was hardly stellar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess this is just where personal preference comes in. Personally I'd much rather take generic shonen crap over painfully unfunny one-liners that make me want to facepalm to a degree that could risk concussion.

Yes, I'll admit, the Japanese lines certainly do sound more generic and arguably 'boring'; but in my opinion, that's also their strength, in that they sound more normal. Generic in this case works both ways; sure, the lines don't particularly stand out, but at the same time it means they're totally inoffensive.

I'd much prefer reserved, ordinary dialogue over "OH HEY GUYS I'M MAKING LAME CONTEXTUAL JOKES ABOUT BALD PEOPLE AND EGGS. EVERY. FIVE. SECONDS."

I'm sorry, but lame or not it actually has personality and it's a line that actually has good context and can't be copypasted like the generic lines you mentioned. But yeah, personal prefrence and all that jazz.

And I didnt reallize making one Egg joke counts for making one every fivee seconds.

Edited by Groosenator032
  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You wanna know what I find especially ironic, this is the exact inverse of what people see as a problem with Eggman that they hate how goofy and comical he is and that he's just a joke who gets nothing done, but we argue that he's gotten a lot more done regardless of his attitude, meanwhile here we are arguing that Sonic is being too goofy and not getting anything done.

So....what the hell is the difference?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What constitutes as "doing something" because if I recall the entire game was dedicated to freeing planets one by one, or does it have to be in a cutscene to count because the entire ending was his doing then.

I mean doing anything that further establishes his character. The majority of Sonic's characterisation is him making lame jokes.

the same types of one liners that you seem to be deriding him for, so please tell me what's the difference and how one is better than the other.

Personal preference. ^_^;

Except no previous Sonic game has had what I would call "good writing", even Sa2 has serious faults, and if that's your definition of good writing in the series than I have to respectfully disagree and say Colors beats it by a long shot,

Eh, different strokes I guess.

I admit that I'm a little biased against Colors since all the parts of its writing that I didn't like all came from the main character. Everyone else was great but Sonic himself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I mean doing anything that further establishes his character.

Such as? Care to point out any examples outside of Black Knight?

The majority of Sonic's characterisation is him making lame jokes.

Sure he made a lot of jokes, but that established more about his character than most other games. Simple things; he's impatient, he's very, very self-assured and cocky, he's protective and loyal to his friends and he's a little bit of a jackass at times. That was established self-consciously or otherwise, simply through those "lame one-liners". Heck one of the scenes even pointed out his moral compass, given how he responded to the weaponisation of the Wisps in Asteroid Coaster.

Personal preference. happy.png;

Glad that this has been established. It applies throughout this topic.

Eh, different strokes I guess.

I admit that I'm a little biased against Colors since all the parts of its writing that I didn't like all came from the main character. Everyone else was great but Sonic himself.

I'm not really sure why? He made jokes, some were bad and some were funny. Hit and miss to be perfectly honest, but its not like he really had much else to do. The story was so tight and constricting that there was hardly anything to do in the cutscenes (in fact I think some have been cut our because the cutscene progression isn't totally fluid and it feels like there are missing links). As a result, the writers did what they could with what they had, they didn't write the story, that was obviously done during the development of the game (which I doubt they had any involvement in), at least they decided to imbue him with some personality, even if not everyone likes it.

I mean for goodness' sake, any line in Colours beats this:

That Eggman sure likes mechanical things doesn't he

Holy fucking shit Sonic, really? I would have never guessed!

SA2's script is hardly stellar, but bloody hell this fucking takes the cake for the single worst line of dialogue I have ever seen in a Sonic game. Its not cringeworthy or corny, its just fucking stupid.

Edited by Scar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I mean doing anything that further establishes his character. The majority of Sonic's characterisation is him making lame jokes.

And how does that not establish his character? Sometimes words can establish something about someone too; He's impatient, cocky, hammy, sarcastic and a bit of a jackass, all of that from "lame jokes" seems to establish a lot about Sonic's character if you ask me, a lot more than any other game outside of Black Knight, and it takes a lot to establish a character based on the script alone, mind you.

Personal preference. happy.png;

Welp, can't argue with that, thanks for pointing this out.

Eh, different strokes I guess.

I admit that I'm a little biased against Colors since all the parts of its writing that I didn't like all came from the main character. Everyone else was great but Sonic himself.

I never understood this, why is it the main character of a given series has to be the "everyman" so to speak, while everyone else gets to have the fun and quirky personalities, I mean isn't it better to have a main character with an actual personality rather than one with the bare minimum? He made lame jokes, so what? I don't think it completely changes who he is despite what people are claiming, and helps him stand out a lot more than just being a "dante clone" so to speak. Colors is constricting with its story, there's not a lot going on and Sonic tries to liven things up the only way Sonic knows how.

I mean for goodness' sake, any line in Colours beats this:

Holy fucking shit Sonic, really? I would have never guessed!

SA2's script is hardly stellar, but bloody hell this fucking takes the cake for the single worst line of dialogue I have ever seen in a Sonic game. Its not cringeworthy or corny, its just fucking stupid.

To be fair, that line sounded more in a "matter of fact" tone than a completely straight one, but that's just me.

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Such as? Care to point out any examples outside of Black Knight?

Maybe I'm wording it wrong, but I feel Sonic showed significantly less range of reactions throughout the game. In SA2 he's still one-liner spewing cockyness, but whenever he encounters Shadow he's more agitated towards him. I guess this is mostly the fault of Colors' tight story.

Sure he made a lot of jokes, but that established more about his character than most other games.

Fair enough, though I still say his dialogue could've came off better.

why is it the main character of a given series has to be the "everyman" so to speak,

I never said he should be the everyman, I just don't like how he was written in Colors.

and helps him stand out a lot more than just being a "dante clone" so to speak.

He can be quirky, I never said he shouldn't be. I used Dante as an example of a character that was quirky without being corny or downplaying his cool traits.

Edited by Black Spy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe I'm wording it wrong, but I feel Sonic showed significantly less range of reactions throughout the game. In SA2 he's still one-liner spewing cockyness, but whenever he encounters Shadow he's more agitated towards him. I guess this is mostly the fault of Colors' tight story.

But despite Colors` story, Sonic still did show a fair range of reactions; particularly when Tails was brainwashed and when the two encountered the Wisp Draining factory, he doesn't joke, he's dead serious and the first thing he does is charge Eggman, no questions asked, in the Wisp factory he firmly reassures Tails that he's going to stop Eggman, again no jokes there.

The plot didn't need to be on the scale of Sa2 to show Sonic reacting to different situations, why people choose to ignore this and only single out his corniness is beyond me.

Fair enough, though I still say his dialogue could've came off better

Agreed, I sill don't think it was that bad, but I can compromise with this.

.

I never said he should be the everyman, I just don't like how he was written in Colors.

Fair enough.

He can be quirky, I never said he shouldn't be. I used Dante as an example of a character that was quirky without being corny or downplaying his cool traits.

But how are Sonic's cool traits being downplayed? I mean Dante's camp alone should negate any of his cool moments by this logic, especially in DMC 3, where he's arguably just as corny and over the top as Sonic was despite how cool he looked while doing it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sonic games tend to do a lot better when they don't take themselves seriously, at all.

Like Heroes? We haven't had a 'serious' story since the direction in writing has changed and I hardly think Sonic is incapable of having a well-written story on a grand scale just because he is Sonic.

Even Colors seems to be more favorably looked at than say, Sa2.

I don't remember people complaining back in 2001. However gaming standards have changed so I would expect Colours to be a vast improvement.

But everyone knows Sonic Colors sucks because it doesn't take itself seriously, Sonic plots can only be good when they're taken seriously as can be for this series.

I personally don't think Colours was written as well as its fans make it out to be, aside from improving character interaction. A lot of the lines were just awful, whether they were aiming at children or not. It felt as though the writers were filling air left over from a wafer-thin plot. Having said that I am not going to claim that the dialogue in any game from Adventure to '06 was any better. Lines like 'Look! It's a giant talking egg!' made me cringe when I was 13, just as 'Baldy McNosehair' does now. It's just more evident in Colours because little else is going on.

Anyway, as for Sonic, I would prefer him to talk a bit less and do a lot more. It doesn't make sense to me that he would stand around talking about nothing when he could be out there busting some badniks. This is not to say that I don't want to see interaction with other characters; quite the contrary, but it seems a bit odd to me that a character who is supposedly 'cool', yet impatient, would waste a lot of time telling bad jokes and mouthing off at Eggman rather than taking action.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like Heroes? We haven't had a 'serious' story since the direction in writing has changed and I hardly think Sonic is incapable of having a well-written story on a grand scale just because he is Sonic.

Edited by Shadic Claus
  • Thumbs Up 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I actually like wise-cracking Sonic the most; it really doesn't make him any less of a hero since he still does all his good deeds and he mostly just makes rude remarks towards the enemies anyway. Besides, even if you think his jokes make him flawed and annoying, isn't that kind of a good thing? It's sort of like a hero with a weakness; it's interesting when there's something about the hero that they're not good at or can't do correctly. For example, Sonic would be even more one-dimensional if he could swim. Perfect heroes are boring.

English Script: "Time to scramble some Eggman, Super Sonic Style!"

Japanese Script: "Now the real fight starts, take a look at our power" (rough literal translation, basically "That was nothing, now we'll show you what we've really got").

Edited by MugiMikey
  • Thumbs Up 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The plot didn't need to be on the scale of Sa2 to show Sonic reacting to different situations, why people choose to ignore this and only single out his corniness is beyond me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's because thats all I remember from the cutscenes. There wasn't a whole lot to offset Sonic's otherwise cringeworthy lines, and because of that, the bad lines become even more glaring.

Edited by Shadic Claus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

You must read and accept our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy to continue using this website. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.