Does 3D matter?

[JezMM]

I would hate hate hate hate for the Sonic games to be 2D only.

Is this Sonic to me?

Sure it is. The classics and modern 2D titles alike are great games, with a very unique and fun brand of platforming gameplay.

However, what really brought me back into the series is Sonic Adventure 2.

So this:

Is what I think of when I think of Sonic. A fast-paced platformer in which I get to storm through huge, expansive envioronments - even if only aesthetically - at a speed unlike any other platformer offers. It's exciting, it's satisfying, it's really really fun.

Is it as clever as classic physics-based platforming? Probably not. But that doesn't make it any less Sonic. It's still a unique formula that few games compare to, and I just don't think the 2D perspective can capture the imagination of huge, beautiful locations like this in the same way, even with a 2.5D view, I'm usually thinking the stuff in the background looks more fun to be playing on (Starlight Carnival and Planet Wisp were especially bad for this in Colours).

Edited April 1, 2012 by JezMM

[Wittymations]

Not exactly trying to add fuel to the fire, but do you notice how every time Sonic's name is so much as mentioned in the media the ONLY 2D titles that get attention in just about everyone of them are the Classic titiles?

Well, that was Sonic's root. Those games existed during Sonic's height. Back when SEGA was clashing with Nintendo. They were also part of the main series, before Sonic went 3D.

Actually, I do hear a fair amount of Advance, not so much with Rush. Though, I hear more about Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 and Knuckles more than any.

Edited April 1, 2012 by WIttyUsername

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well, that was Sonic's root. Those games existed during Sonic's height. Back when SEGA was clashing with Nintendo. They were also part of the main series, before Sonic went 3D.

That wasn't my point.

I'm saying that for all the 2D titles we've had since the classics, hardly any of them are mentioned compared to the 3D ones.

[TheOcelot]

As SEGA will be concentrating on Digital games (after the restructure) would you be happy with a $15 3d Sonic digital download game? I don't like how short Sonic 4 Ep1 (2d game) was, and would be impressed if a new 3d Sonic was a success on digital download.

I personally like having both 2d & 3d Sonic games. Different styles with their own legion of fans.

Sonic 4 Ep1 showed that the level design in all new Sonic games either 2d & 3d is to remain 'modern Sonic' i.e. fast paced linear level design: fun - pure hedgehog speed - short term buzz - gets boring too quickly - lackng in replay value.

I don't think Sonic would survive on 2d on its own.

Edited April 1, 2012 by MilesKnightwing

[OlenJimi]

As SEGA will be concentrating on Digital games (after the restructure) would you be happy with a $15 3d Sonic digital download game? I don't like how short Sonic 4 Ep1 (2d game) was, and would be impressed if a new 3d Sonic was a success on digital download.

I personally like having both 2d & 3d Sonic games. Different styles with their own legion of fans.

Sonic 4 Ep1 showed that the level design in all new Sonic games either 2d & 3d is to remain 'modern Sonic' i.e. fast paced linear level design: fun - pure hedgehog speed - short term buzz - gets boring too quickly - lackng in replay value.

I don't think Sonic would survive on 2d on its own.

I have no idea what you said expect the last part which I agree with.

[neezTHEhuman]

There has never been a 3D Sonic game. All so called 3D Sonic gameplay, not counting the hub worlds of SA1 and Unleashed, is just isometric or 'behind the back camera' 2D with a 3D character model instead of sprites. I would love to see free roaming 3D action stages in a Sonic game but with the current direction the series is taking it will probably remain a distant dream.

[JezMM]

There has never been a 3D Sonic game. All so called 3D Sonic gameplay, not counting the hub worlds of SA1 and Unleashed, is just isometric or 'behind the back camera' 2D with a 3D character model instead of sprites. I would love to see free roaming 3D action stages in a Sonic game but with the current direction the series is taking it will probably remain a distant dream.

3D Game and Free Roaming game are not synonymous terms. You can have such a thing as a linear 3D game and there have been thousands of them.

[Chaos Warp]

Dude, no offence, but that attitude just screams "1996" to me.

Well, maybe I worded it wrong. Let me rephrase more clearly.

I don't think 2d Sonic (Or 2d in general. Look at Rayman Origins!) should die off, but if it regressed to JUST that, it would be a big step backwards.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Christmas Warp

[Spooky Mulder]

SEGA doesn't need to ditch 3D; it needs to make a 3D Sonic game that is actually 3D.

The way I see it, there are significant benefits to Sonic being in 2D the side view makes it easier to properly judge distance from platform to platform or to enemies, and I would assume rolling physics are much harder to program to work in 3D than in 2D.

Transitioning Sonic into 3D means that you're definitely going to lose some things in translation. You're going to need things like the homing attack to make gameplay work.

3D has its own significant benefits though. The possibility of larger, more complicated environments mainly that feel like real worlds.

The problem is that current 3D Sonic games don't tap into their full potential. They're very basic 3D games—essentially tunnel platformers. They seem to almost be designed like 2D Sonic games with an over-the-shoulder perspective. Since the 2D mechanics don't work in that perspective, the level design and everything else ends up being watered down and simplified so the game is playable. Right now we've got 3D Sonic games but with all the disadvantages of 3D and none of the advantages.

If Sonic is going to work in 3D, then SEGA needs to make a Sonic game with truly open environments.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Spooky Mulder

[Diogenes]

At this point, Sonic Team can't do 2D any better than 3D. But if they actually got their shit together...yeah, 3D does matter. 3D opens up options that 2D simply does not have, and I think there is a lot of interesting Sonic gameplay to be found in 3D.

So long as Sonic's movement is primarily governed by how the designers created the topography of the ground instead of by a set of multi-purpose moves under your complete control as with Mario, I maintain that you inherently can't get as much meaningful mileage out of the hedgehog. You are painted into a corner by the fact that he is- by diehards' insistence at least- obligated to act like a ball, an inanimate object subject to the whims of external forces and gravity, instead of a character with his own two feet and acrobatic sensibilities like Mario.

Curling into a ball doesn't render Sonic an inanimate object. You can still jump and decelerate, and in 3D you can turn. And rolling is a choice in itself.

[Rusty Spy]

You are painted into a corner by the fact that he is- by diehards' insistence at least- obligated to act like a ball, an inanimate object subject to the whims of external forces and gravity, instead of a character with his own two feet and acrobatic sensibilities like Mario.

This is sort of why I'd like to see Sonic explore parkour styled gameplay. There's that more varied control while keeping the core philosophy set by the classic gameplay; fast-paced and flowing.

Curling into a ball doesn't render Sonic an inanimate object. You can still jump and decelerate, and in 3D you can turn. And rolling is a choice in itself.

True, but I think the point is that being in a ball inherently removes some degree of control from the character compared to being on two feet; that's a natural consequence of the concept.

[Nepenthe]

At this point, Sonic Team can't do 2D any better than 3D. But if they actually got their shit together...yeah, 3D does matter. 3D opens up options that 2D simply does not have, and I think there is a lot of interesting Sonic gameplay to be found in 3D.

Curling into a ball doesn't render Sonic an inanimate object. You can still jump and decelerate, and in 3D you can turn. And rolling is a choice in itself.

My point was not to say that Classic Sonic is a literal pinball at all times, rather the games are designed to cater directly to the player getting the most bang for their buck by initiating rolling often, an action that inevitably sacrifices a fair bit of control in comparison to any other platformer character whose movement is focused on their actual atheletic prowess and ability to get away from the ground.

Two out of your three main classic maneuvers are rolling like a ball thus are most effective when left to the devices of the slope angle of the floor, gravity, and objects that enact external forces, not you yourself actually doing anything beyond initiating it. Sonic's jump is indeed a jump, but its only unique property is putting you back into a ball, sacrificing any need or perhaps possibility of delivering the kind of tightly-designed, consistenly-flowing, and hard-as-nails challenges that are prevalent in the most popular platformers that are actually coming out today: Luigi's Purple Coins, The Golden Temple, a Tricky Treasure level, Super Meat Boy itself, etc. The closest we've gotten to really any of that is, well, the Modern gameplay.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Scar]

There has never been a 3D Sonic game. All so called 3D Sonic gameplay, not counting the hub worlds of SA1 and Unleashed, is just isometric or 'behind the back camera' 2D with a 3D character model instead of sprites. I would love to see free roaming 3D action stages in a Sonic game but with the current direction the series is taking it will probably remain a distant dream.

This post is factually incorrect.

Sonic 3D blast was isometric. None of the 3D Sonic games, from SA1 through to Generations are isometric. Its shocking you'd actually say something like that. A 'behind the back camera' system is by definition 3D, because 2D isometric requires the camera to be fixed (see Sonic 3D blast), the action of having the camera follow the character model 'behind the back' makes it 3D.

Also "free roaming" actions stages is very vague. What does that even mean? An action stage in which you can roam freely?....Thus defeating the purpose of a Point A-to-Point B platformer like Sonic the Hedgehog. What do you mean by this?

Edited April 1, 2012 by Scar

[neezTHEhuman]

This post is factually incorrect.

Sonic 3D blast was isometric. None of the 3D Sonic games, from SA1 through to Generations are isometric. Its shocking you'd actually say something like that. A 'behind the back camera' system is by definition 3D, because 2D isometric requires the camera to be fixed (see Sonic 3D blast), the action of having the camera follow the character model 'behind the back' makes it 3D.

Also "free roaming" actions stages is very vague. What does that even mean? An action stage in which you can roam freely?....Thus defeating the purpose of a Point A-to-Point B platformer like Sonic the Hedgehog. What do you mean by this?

Why does Sonic have to be a point A to point B platformer?

What I mean by a free roaming action stage is Mario 64 style level design with its wide open spaces and compactness. Take bob omb battlefield, the first level in that game, for the first star the goal is to reach the top of the mountain and defeat the big bomb, just make some minor adjustments and this could also be a Sonic level. Replace bomb with Eggman, add slopes that you can spin dash up, rings instead of coins etc. There's your point A to point B, from top to bottom.

[Kuzu]

Why does Sonic have to be a point A to point B platformer?

...Because that's what he is?

What I mean by a free roaming action stage is Mario 64 style level design with its wide open spaces and compactness. Take bob omb battlefield, the first level in that game, for the first star the goal is to reach the top of the mountain and defeat the big bomb, just make some minor adjustments and this could also be a Sonic level. Replace bomb with Eggman, add slopes that you can spin dash up, rings instead of coins etc. There's your point A to point B, from top to bottom.

And Mario 64 is generally looked down upon nowadays because of how open ended it is. It has a lot of space, and it makes the missions go on longer than what's really needed. The Galaxy games are much linear by comparison, and looked at much more favorably.

[Scar]

Why does Sonic have to be a point A to point B platformer?

What is that supposed to mean? You start at the beginning of the stage, and go through the stage to the end. There is a defined beginning, and a defined end. This is kind of what Sonic is. The classics were pretty much built upon this concept.

What I mean by a free roaming action stage is Mario 64 style level design with its wide open spaces and compactness.

Sonic isn't Mario. Moreover, this formula was abandoned by Nintendo after Sunshine, because its boring. Hence Galaxy's creation. You get straight into the meat of the platforming action, without running pointlessly trying to search for something interesting to do.

Take bob omb battlefield, the first level in that game, for the first star the goal is to reach the top of the mountain and defeat the big bomb, just make some minor adjustments and this could also be a Sonic level. Replace bomb with Eggman, add slopes that you can spin dash up, rings instead of coins etc. There's your point A to point B, from top to bottom.

Minor adjusments? That would take all of 30 seconds to a minute to complete with Sonic, because he can move faster. The stage would have to be redesigned to its core. That kind of level design is so completely contrary to what Sonic is supposed to be, that I can't take it seriously.

Also, "free roaming" by definition cannot be Point A to Point B. Free Roaming imples being able to roam around freely, with no set direction or location/end point you need to go to. Its an area/location you inhabit, like GTA or Skyrim, whereas a Sonic stage is something you traverse through.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Scar

[Rusty Spy]

Why does Sonic have to be a point A to point B platformer?

What I mean by a free roaming action stage is Mario 64 style level design with its wide open spaces and compactness. Take bob omb battlefield, the first level in that game, for the first star the goal is to reach the top of the mountain and defeat the big bomb, just make some minor adjustments and this could also be a Sonic level. Replace bomb with Eggman, add slopes that you can spin dash up, rings instead of coins etc. There's your point A to point B, from top to bottom.

You could put Sonic in any Mario 64 level but would you really be playing a Sonic game? Or Mario 64 with a Sonic skin? Sonic and Mario, while similar, work a whole lot differently.

Sonic works better as a Point A to B platformer because all his mechanics and gameplay focus on getting to the end of a level as fast as possible. If you put him in an open world like Mario 64, you could get to the end in well under a minute. Sonic is a character that needs room to stretch his legs.

[Spooky Mulder]

That would take all of 30 seconds to a minute to complete with Sonic, because he can move faster.

Devil's Advocate: Make the stage bigger. Bomb-omb Battlefield is the opening level to a game from 1996. Surely on a modern or next generation console, they could produce even more dynamic stages of decent length that have the same freedom of mobility as a game like M64.

Yes, Sonic is partly about getting from Point A to Point B as fast as possible, but its also about exploiting varying routes and taking advantage of the terrain between those points to do so. I think giving Sonic wider, more intricate levels only enhances the "Sonic-ness" of it.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Spooky Mulder

[Nepenthe]

I don't think merely scaling Bob-Omb Battlefield would make much of a difference. It's not that Sonic is faster, but he has different jumping and maneuvering capabilities as well. You need to redesign the level entirely to fit Sonic's needs and make it a comparable challenge. Basically, dumping Sonic in a valley with a mountain in it isn't all that Sonic-like.

[Spooky Mulder]

I don't think merely scaling Bob-Omb Battlefield would make much of a difference. It's not that Sonic is faster, but he has different jumping and maneuvering capabilities as well. You need to redesign the level entirely to fit Sonic's needs and make it a comparable challenge. Basically, dumping Sonic in a valley with a mountain in it isn't all that Sonic-like.

Completely agree. My point is that less linear environments does not have to mean short levels just because Sonic is faster than characters like Mario. Naturally, Sonic wouldn't work in a stage that is actually designed Bomb-Omb Battlefield; but I don't think that means Sonic wouldn't work in a stage designed to be just as open.

[Double Agent Motobug]

And Mario 64 is generally looked down upon nowadays because of how open ended it is. It has a lot of space, and it makes the missions go on longer than what's really needed. The Galaxy games are much linear by comparison, and looked at much more favorably.

That's a great April Fools joke. xD You almost had me for a second there!

On topic, though, I think 3D does indeed matter. SEGA proved they could make a polished, fun 3D Sonic game with Generations' levels, so I don't see why they should ever ditch 3D. Also, the fanbase shat all over Sonic Colours for being mostly 2D after they realized that the 3D segments were there to chain together larger 2D ones.

Also, Little Big Planet (2.) is a full priced retail "2D" platformer as well. Mind you, people probably pay that much and are okay with it due to it's level creation/sharing, but I wouldn't say that the main platformer bits were lacking either. o: I know I loved 'em.

[JezMM]

Sonic relies on intricate level design. Imagine designing a stage 10 times the size of Bob-Omb Battlefield. It has to be filled with stuff to interact with. Every bit of stuff needs to have a reason to be interacted with. Why should the player go through the shuttle loop when they can just go around it? Why take the narrow path across the bridge when you could just drop down and find an easier way up?

Make it the only way to the goal perhaps? Why... that sounds like an A to B platformer! So why not cut out the middleman and just make A to B platforming levels that are fun and interesting throughout?

Btw, Mario 64's style wasn't ditched because it was disliked. Mario 64 and Mario Sunshine got near-universal praise. Mario Galaxy dropped the free-roaming style to "try it out", since creating huge, intricate open worlds which require the kind of tight, constantly entertaining design a platformer requires are really, REALLY hard to make.

Turns out the linear style was just as much a success, so they stuck with it for Galaxy 2 and 3D Land, with the occasional "playground" styled level as a throwback.

[Spooky Mulder]

Why should the player go through the shuttle loop when they can just go around it?

Why have the shuttle loops in 2D at all? They don't actually do much of anything.

Because they're fun.

But I think I can actually come up with interesting ways to use something like a shuttle loop in 3D. You come to a point where you can either run around the shuttle loop, or you can run through it, picking up speed as you come of it. The extra speed could be used to access some sort of alternate path (ex. you can run off a "ramp" and reach a higher path than you would otherwise.) The other path would let you go around the loop, but would take longer to actually get to the goal.

Also, as I said, shuttle loops are fun to run through.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Spooky Mulder

[Chaos Warp]

Why have the shuttle loops in 2D at all? They don't actually do much of anything.

Because they're fun.

Better yet, possible they could give you a points bonus for running through the loop? (In a 3d open Sonic level that is).

On the whole openness thing, I find myself in the middle. I don't want really open 64-style levels for Sonic. I like the path-based level design of Generations. But I feel that the paths could be wider, and give you some explore room in the path itself. SA1 had the right idea, as it had some secrets you could only find by exploring.

So, Generations path-based level design, but widen up the paths to add some explore room.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Christmas Warp

[JezMM]

There's certainly possibilities. Bare in mind I unfortunately can't help but work from fan game "open" Sonic levels where I swear not one person knows what to do with damn loops. They always just plonk them in the middle of fields and expect the player to run through them just because.