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Does 3D matter?


Chaos Walker

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Make loops have ramps at the end to shove you up to a higher path. Don't run the loop? Can't go up to a higher path!

o:

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Also, it can be as simple as placing rings through the loop and not placing them on the sides. The modern games don't really treat rings like items of value since its pretty easy to get a few hundred in any given level without trying, but I think the games could definitely benefit form making them a little more scarce and returning to the days where you actually lose them all if you get hit.

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Well, not to be a negative nelly but solving the loops problem is barely the tip of the iceberg, and I mean, like, the topmost cubed inch of the iceberg.

Point still stands that you'd need to create levels about 10 times the size of the current ones due to the expanded directions - make a lot of those areas traversible in both directions, with various points of entry, and make, like, what, 10 of them for the game?

That's literally like 100 times the work they're doing now. They've have to totally rebuild the game engine too since the whole fancy level streaming thing presumebly only works when the level is being played in a linear fashion.

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Nah, I think the level streaming thing, if programmed to work with 'distance-to-edge-of-loaded-chunk' instead of 'arbitrary invisible barrier that you have to pass', similarly to GTA, then it wouldn't be a big deal =3 Not that I mind the Generations "closedish" level design, but I'm just saying it could probably work in a more open setting.

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Yes, because 2D gaming is kind of out of style when it comes to making big-store hits that really bring in the green.

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I love 3D Sonic and the potential to fully realize one, but I'm kinda getting sick of the "2D is outdated" crap from some of the comments.

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Not much to say that hasn't already been said. It doesn't matter if the games are 2D or 3D as long as the core basics of what makes Sonic and unique present. Though it would be cool to see a 2D Sonic game treated as a main title again, so long as it's a monster of a game in terms of content.

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Well, not to be a negative nelly but solving the loops problem is barely the tip of the iceberg, and I mean, like, the topmost cubed inch of the iceberg.

Point still stands that you'd need to create levels about 10 times the size of the current ones due to the expanded directions - make a lot of those areas traversible in both directions, with various points of entry, and make, like, what, 10 of them for the game?

That's literally like 100 times the work they're doing now. They've have to totally rebuild the game engine too since the whole fancy level streaming thing presumebly only works when the level is being played in a linear fashion.

If the levels were designed like that, you'd run into another problem, sense of direction. When you have this large non linear open level, there comes the problem of simply knowing where to go. This is the problem I have with non-linear levels in Sonic games; if there's only one goal, then you've got a ton of space that's going to waste.

The best way I could think if using a non linear level would be one where you need to reach multiple goals to complete the stage, like a city level or a mechanical base level where you have to destroy a set number of macguffin within an open enviorment where you could chose your own route, and even then I'd only prefer maybe two or three levels like that throughout the game.

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Oh boy, this topic went fun places. I won't argue with anyone that Generations was a decent if not good game, but I cant be the only one who craves what was lost after 1995. I suppose whether or not a gameplay experience like that gets made again doesn't matter much, but as a fan who got into things way back when I'd sure like to get more of that.

Generations seems to be toted as the best 3D Sonic experience to date, and after playing it I really just wanted go back to Sky Sanctuary over and over to find the different paths. It had nice 3D platforming, but it was trying so hard to be fast that the platforming sections kept abruptly ending. And sadly Mario kind of has 3D platforming down at the moment, so some sonicy twists on that would be nice.

My problem with 3D Sonic is that he has different main abilities and level design. It's a different sort of game than I was playing back then, so I don't entirely even want to compare them anymore. Though it's not a massive sin if it's fun I suppose, seeing how well Metroid Prime turned out and that changed alot in that series. Nobody is afraid to associat those titles, probably because they were well recieved. With Sonic on the other hand, my brain is insisting that 3D Sonic games are a seperate entity.

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I'm pretty much where Sean is on this. I can't say I've ever really had much of a rapport with the 3D games, myself, but I could easily tolerate if they did two Sonic series (one modern, one classic), which is what potential I thought Generations brought. The fact that Sega brought back Classic Sonic and then said they were shelving him again right after was, quite frankly, a stupid idea. I'm not going to say all of the 3D games are bad, because I've not played them all, but from what I have played, I never seem to get the same enjoyment that I do from a 2D Sonic game because it just doesn't feel "right".

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I'll put it the way FTA did: Sonic Adventure felt like the first and last true 3D Sonic game. every game after that felt like a good game that Sonic just happened to be in. SA felt like the only game to perfectly incorporate the lighthearted and colorfully fun themes of the old games. It's then been proven that a truly Sonic experience can be had in 3D, but they just haven't figured out how to do it again. They were really trying with Sonic '06, and I respect them for that, but that game was never truly finished. If they had improved upon the mistakes of '06 for either a remake or a sequel, it would, in my opinion at least, be worthy of the title "Sonic Adventure 3."

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So to answer the original question:

Yes it would, because it would signify Sonic Team and SEGA giving up. Its stupid, lazy and cowardly. It would also spell Sonic's slow decent into irrelevance.

Edited by KatamariParadox
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I'm pretty much where Sean is on this. I can't say I've ever really had much of a rapport with the 3D games, myself, but I could easily tolerate if they did two Sonic series (one modern, one classic), which is what potential I thought Generations brought. The fact that Sega brought back Classic Sonic and then said they were shelving him again right after was, quite frankly, a stupid idea.

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We need the franchise to advance into 3D rather than regress back to the safety net of 2D

As a person who takes game design very seriously, I have to say now that 2D isn't a limitation, or even an artistic preference, it's a design choice. 2D games are governed by a different set of rules, and call for signinificantly different designs for the same concepts.

I'm pretty sure the fact that Sonic 4 is developed by Dimps (if not, correct me) is why it doesn't compare to the genesis games. Funnily, while Sonic 2 hasn't gotten any worse in my eyes, Sonic Adventure has so I doubt it's the nostalgia goggles.

I'm probably the only one to feel this way, but I'm not 100% sold on the idea that Sonic Adventure carried over the Sonic feel from the classics. It definetly did it better than later games, but that's mostly because modern sonic is trying to be fast before being a platformer. When I play a Sonic game, platforming should happen, which Adventure did well, and level shape abuse should be happening, which Adventure left out. Sonic was still fast, but he forgot to use that speed for anything but running as far as I can remember.

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I'm pretty sure the fact that Sonic 4 is developed by Dimps (if not, correct me) is why it doesn't compare to the genesis games.

But Dimps also developed Sonic Advance 1, which is VERY close to the classic in terms of level design and physics to where it might as well be Sonic 4 instead of the one they already made. Somehow, they got worse with time according to some players.

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As a person who takes game design very seriously, I have to say now that 2D isn't a limitation, or even an artistic preference, it's a design choice. 2D games are governed by a different set of rules, and call for signinificantly different designs for the same concepts.

Sonic games can't make that justification. What would be acheived 'artistically' by sticking to 2D, that couldn't be achieved in 3D? In what way would a concious design choice of sticking to 2D, benefit the Sonic franchise in a way that 3D wouldn't? If you're as serious as you say about game design, you should be able to answer these questions. Other than simply attempting to invoke memories of the classics, I can see no reason you'd want to limit Sonic to 2D. Another is sheer laziness or cowardice - that you cannot be bothered to try making Sonic work in 3D. Sonic has arguably reached his peak in 2D in Sonic 3 and Knuckles. There are no valid reasons for limiting the franchise to something it has already conquered.

Sidescrollers have their place in the industry. In smaller, low-budget breakthrough games for indie developers, on iOS/Android/Windows Phone platforms where people are looking for quicker pikc-up-and-play style of games.

The simple fact is, 2D games cannot offer the same level of immersion as a fully 3D world can. As immersing as Sonic 3 and Knuckles was, no Sonic game can even stand to compare to the level of immersion Sonic Unleashed offered into the world it was building. Everything about the game was designed to pull you into the world Sonic Team had created. Though the stages themselves didn't offer much room for movement, they still had small areas and details that made them feel like actual locations. Same with the hub worlds, there were small nuances and touches within the areas that made the game come alive in ways that are just not possible in 2D.

I'm pretty sure the fact that Sonic 4 is developed by Dimps (if not, correct me) is why it doesn't compare to the genesis games. Funnily, while Sonic 2 hasn't gotten any worse in my eyes, Sonic Adventure has so I doubt it's the nostalgia goggles.

Sonic 4 is epitomised by laziness and/or general flawed game design on Dimps' part.

SA1 hasn't aged as well as S2 because of technical reasons. That and it generally wasnt as well designed. There were a number iffy design decisions (Big, Gamma and Amy) and technical issues with the switch to 3D (the latter can be forgiven as it was their first attempt).

However, I'm wondereing what relevance this has to anything. Is the fact that Sonic 2, a 2D game, has aged better than SA1, a 3D game, some kind of justification for just forgetting about 3D and sticking to 2D? Because I certainly don't think it is. In fact, its all the more reason to continue working at 3D, to produce a game that years down the line will be remembered as being just as classic as Sonic 2 or Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

I'm probably the only one to feel this way, but I'm not 100% sold on the idea that Sonic Adventure carried over the Sonic feel from the classics. It definetly did it better than later games, but that's mostly because modern sonic is trying to be fast before being a platformer. When I play a Sonic game, platforming should happen, which Adventure did well, and level shape abuse should be happening, which Adventure left out. Sonic was still fast, but he forgot to use that speed for anything but running as far as I can remember.

Yeah, which is an issue which we need to address. Its certainly possible, if Sonic Team work at it hard enough and perform enough physics optimisations to enable such manouvres in 3D. I'm still failing to see the relevance that this post has with the topic of discussion that you brought up...Are you trying to say that because no 3D game has acheived then 100% classic style of gameplay that we should just give it up?

3D does matter. I've explained why before.

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As someone who's been with the franchise for over a decade, and played enough games...I'll say that I vastly prefer the 2D games, they just feel the most like Sonic to me, and capture what I love about the series; that however is not to say that the 3D games are terrible, nor should they stop trying, but most of the 3D games are very poorly executed in what they're trying to do and marred down by questionable design choices, not only have the 2D games remained mostly pure in that regard, they're probably the least broken of the series.

Not that 2D is godsend though, I'll acknowledge that Sonic 4 is shit, the Advance games don't quite stack up compared to the Classics(Particularly Adv. 3), and Rush tries too hard with the speed, but I can look over all of those because the game still feels like a Sonic game regardless. While I don't agree with the media in regards to "3D sux, 2D is better", I don't really see how making 2D mainstream titles counts as "regression" , like Scar said, what can be done in 2D can be done in 3D, so does it really make a difference? I really don't think so. If Sonic Team can make a 3D game(And by 3D, I mean that half the game isn't 2D) that plays and feel like a Sonic game, then power to them, but I wouldn't exactly be against it if the mainstream titles went 2D. I mean Rayman Origins is a highly praised game because its 2D, so I don't see why its taboo for Sonic to do the same.

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Most people don't have a problem with 2D Sonic games existing today. Most people have a problem with the thought that 3D itself has absolutely nothing to contribute to the Sonic franchise and thus Sega should slow or halt production on this line of games. That is the actual sticking point of this thread 2D enthusiasts seem to be missing, and along with being regressive, the reasoning is also absolutely atrocious. It inherently devalues the design decisions of the classics and ignores the design issues of the 3D games; it's shallow critical analysis that- taken to its most logical conclusion- will always endorse broken-at-the-core misfires like Episode 1 over genuinely well-designed games like Generations.

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Scar: I have no interest in limiting Sonic to 2D, but the implication that 3D is inherently an advancement over 2D is BS. 3D isn't better, just different; some games work better in 3D, some work better in 2D, some work equally well in both, some only work in one or the other. Choosing not to take a series into 3D doesn't mean giving up on advancing the gameplay, it's just deciding that 3D is not the correct route to take.

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Most people don't have a problem with 2D Sonic games existing today. Most people have a problem with the thought that 3D itself has absolutely nothing to contribute to the Sonic franchise and thus Sega should slow or halt production on this line of games. That is the actual sticking point of this thread 2D enthusiasts seem to be missing, and along with being regressive, the reasoning is also absolutely atrocious. It inherently devalues the design decisions of the classics and ignores the design issues of the 3D games; it's shallow critical analysis that- taken to its most logical conclusion- will always endorse broken-at-the-core misfires like Episode 1 over genuinely well-designed games like Generations.

In what way is 2D a regression? Its a design choice and nothing more, what can be done with a 3D game can easily be done in 2D. Generations would still be a good game if it was all 2D(It may as well be, but that's another argument entirely), and Sonic 4 would still suck if it was 3D. The reason people have such a preference for 2D is because, when you get down to it, they're probably the least flawed games in the entire franchise, even after the supposed "decline" in 1998, the 2D games have always been looked at favorable aside from one or two missteps. The 3D games have always been marred down by bad design choices, and are only recently pulling themselves out of it and even then are still missing a few things.

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Its a design choice and nothing more, what can be done with a 3D game can easily be done in 2D.
How many 2D FPSes have you seen?

Obviously that's for reasons entirely different from anything to do with Sonic, but you can't simply brush off the differences between the two.

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How many 2D FPSes have you seen?

Obviously that's for reasons entirely different from anything to do with Sonic, but you can't simply brush off the differences between the two.

Well Sonic isn't first person now is he? There's no doubt somethings work better in 2D or 3D, but in regards Sonic, it doesn't really matter and it hasn't mattered since the franchise went 3D.

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Generations would still be a good game if it was all 2D

Possibly, but considering the fan favourite level tends to be Seaside Hill for it's huge expansive 3D routes, there are certainly some things that just wouldn't be possible.

Hell, while it's not the best game to do so in, you just need to look at Sonic 2006 2D for direct reference in how originally 3D multiple routes get converted into 2D. Either they become so straightforward they may as well not be there, or they get cut entirely. Obviously if the game had been 2D from the start, such routes wouldn't exist, but the point still stands that there are things you can do in 3D that can't be done in 2D, and vice verca.

Expansive Sonic levels in 2D tend to exclusively test your skill to decide route, whereas expansive Sonic levels in 3D tend to give you more freedom to choose what route you want to tackle. A very huge generalisation but hopefully you get what I mean.

Edited by JezMM
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In what way is 2D a regression? Its a design choice and nothing more, what can be done with a 3D game can easily be done in 2D. Generations would still be a good game if it was all 2D(It may as well be, but that's another argument entirely), and Sonic 4 would still suck if it was 3D.

I didn't say 2D gameplay is a regression; I said the thought that 3D has nothing to offer Sonic and is an inherently negative design decision is both regressive and atrocious thinking. I further asserted that this was because it makes an infantile correlation between dimension and quality. Even you know this and agree with me, stating that Sonic 4 would still be bad if it were in 3D which is my entire point: Episode 1 is bad because it was poorly designed and programmed, its two-dimensional nature doing little to nothing for its quality.

I also disagree with you that 2D is capable of perfectly replicating 3D, especially in terms of gaming; it's utterly impossible by the fact that you simply don't have a Z-axis to work with which inherently limits your mobility, your ability to view the world and orient yourself properly, and the limit to which the designer can physically and aesthetically replicate our own actual reality. I mean hell, if we agree that 2D and 3D are design choices, that'd mean they have inherent differences that are mutually exclusive.

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