Rebooting the Franchise: Good or Bad?

[Kuzu]

Uhm, wow.

How about a compromise.

We "reboot" the series with Sonic 1, CD, 2, 3, Knuckles, Adventure 1&2, Heroes, Rush, Unleashed and Colors as the established canon. All other games are forgotten. Any missing details that need to be brought up can be "filled in" later on. (Shadow's return in Heroes, how Sonic and Silver meet for example).

All of the Shadow/2006/Chronicles/Riders/Rivals fluff is gone. Characters aren't necessarily removed. The more important and better received games are canon (Unleashed being the only 'controversial' one). Fill in the blank between Knuckles and Adventure with however many Classic Sonic games you want, and new Sonic games can expand on the story and world after Colors.

So it'd just be a 'partial' reboot. I mean, that's what I'd do.

That doesn't sound much like a reboot, and more like "Canon Discontinuity".

[Indigo Rush]

The quotes and use of the word 'partial' imply it's something less than a reboot.

(or at least that was the intention...)

Edited September 22, 2012 by Indigo Rush

[Kuzu]

*Ignore*

Edited September 22, 2012 by Ragna the Bloodedge

[Indigo Rush]

It's either a full on reboot or it isn't

Why does it have to be a full-on reboot? Why can't we just do some massive cleaning up?

[Kuzu]

I just said ignore it.

[Indigo Rush]

I just said ignore it.

I apologize, but I had responded to your post before you removed it.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Indigo Rush

[Nepenthe]

Ludicrous how? I never dismissed the idea of them writing better with the current canon, just that it's something they don't seem to attempting to do at the moment, and are actively going against it.

You just attempted to rebuke the idea of writing better on the basis of "Well, Sonic Team isn't doing it?" The problem is that it's not a rebuttal because it doesn't address the actual merits of the idea, hence why it was a ludicrous thing to say. As I said, Sonic Team isn't entertaining a reboot either and probably won't for a good long time, if ever, so what is the point in you advocating for one on this front?

Both you and Soniman seem to be under the impression that I'm saying a reboot is the only way to save the series, when I said no such thing, it's stupid to think that. I said a reboot is a viable option, and has it's benefits as opposed to trying to make sense of the current, jumbled up canon.

I'm not under the impression that you think it's our only option. I'm vehemently against the idea of rebooting in general because no one in this topic has presented a surefire argument that convinces me it's better than what me and Soniman have presented. No one has also presented any real convincing argument that the canon is, somehow, simultaneously a jumbled mess that is difficult to make sense out of and composed of a series of simple, easy-to-understand events that are irrelevant and have no effect on anything down the road. It can really only be one or the other, so really, what is the Sonic canon to you?

Reboot is such a nasty word to some ever since Skylanders and DmC, so I can understand the fear for change here. However, it goes without saying that I still don't think "Reboot" is the right word to use for whomever's using it. Okay, somethings we can do without like ShTH, but in terms of how things are currently, I don't think knocking down a whole wall just to complete it is that necessary except in the most extreme cases, and this isn't that extreme.

Or maybe I'm just not grasping the whole picture of what's being argued about here.

I think you said earlier in this topic to give people who were for a reboot the benefit of the doubt that they were not arguing for a hard erasure of everything. Well, as far as I'm reading (and they're free to correct me on this), Diogenes and Ragna are now advocating for a hard erasure of everything. Literally everything. The modern games, the Adventure era, all of the spin-offs, and even the classic games, and all of the character personalities and relationships with one another that we know of today would be flushed down the toilet and we would just completely start over with something that I'm assuming would be more consistent.

Me and Soniman are vehemently against this primarily on the basis that a reboot solves nothing that better writing cannot, especially in the context of this series where it is easy to ignore games and specific bits of information and still write a good story that adheres to canon. We also believe there are things worth salvaging: The character archetypes, their histories and interactions with one another may be shallow but are nonetheless defined and iconic, as are individual storylines (especially the classics'), and the series' current aesthetic breadth and ability to showcase a wide-array of locations. These things are entertaining and definitive of the franchise as we know it, thus they automatically hold inherent value to the audience that chooses to be engaged in it.

This is the debate so far.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Balding Spider]

Uhm, wow.

How about a compromise.

We "reboot" the series with Sonic 1, CD, 2, 3, Knuckles, Adventure 1&2, Heroes, Rush, Unleashed and Colors as the established canon. All other games are forgotten. Any missing details that need to be brought up can be "filled in" later on. (Shadow's return in Heroes, how Sonic and Silver meet for example).

All of the Shadow/2006/Chronicles/Riders/Rivals fluff is gone. Characters aren't necessarily removed. The more important and better received games are canon (Unleashed being the only 'controversial' one). Fill in the blank between Knuckles and Adventure with however many Classic Sonic games you want, and new Sonic games can expand on the story and world after Colors.

So it'd just be a 'partial' reboot. I mean, that's what I'd do.

So you want to New 52 the Sonic series then?

[Vertekins]

A reboot is a cop-out. Plain and simple. Especially considering that there is no justification to reboot when improved writing and reassessed priorities concerning character-usage and story length/plot as well as making games with a heart and soul is adequate enough to iron-out current issues with the series character/world/story-wise. Shadow's daddy is an evil alien overlord? Um, deal? And Shadow's parentage and past is not relevant any more. Blaze's backstory is a mess of contradictions? That's what retcons are for, not reboots. The characters don't do anything good or worthy any more? Write them better. The world the games are set in isn't interesting and isn't lovingly-developed? Unleashed says "Hi".

The "problems" with the series' aspects regarding it's world, characterizations and plots are nothing that better writing and a reassessment of current direction can't solve.

[Tornado]

Blaze's backstory is a mess of contradictions? That's what retcons are for, not reboots.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who kept having that flash in the front of their mind every time stuff of that nature was brought up. I thought I was missing something.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Tornado

[Kuzu]

You just attempted to rebuke the idea of writing better on the basis of "Well, Sonic Team isn't doing it?" The problem is that it's not a rebuttal because it doesn't address the actual merits of the idea, hence why it was a ludicrous thing to say. As I said, Sonic Team isn't entertaining a reboot either and probably won't for a good long time, if ever, so what is the point in you advocating for one on this front?

Because, like most things in this series, it's an idea born from a rumor, an idea that has the potential to make the series make up for it's crappy stories of the past, and create something that might make people actually care about the series again.

I'm vehemently against the idea of rebooting in general because no one in this topic has presented a surefire argument that convinces me it's better than what me and Soniman have presented.

All the two of you have presented is "Well they can just write better now" with the reasoning being they can just ignore all of the past crap, so if you're just going to ignore all of the past crap anyway, how is a reboot any worse in this regard?

No one has also presented any real convincing argument that the canon is, somehow, simultaneously a jumbled mess that is difficult to make sense out of and composed of a series of simple, easy-to-understand events that are irrelevant and have no effect on anything down the road.

We have Shadow's backstory, we had the whole Silver/Blaze/Nega fiasco, and the whole moon situation, and again, if you're just going to ignore all of that anyway, how is a reboot a terrible idea in this case?

A reboot is a cop-out. Plain and simple. Especially considering that there is no justification to reboot when improved writing and reassessed priorities concerning character-usage and story length/plot as well as making games with a heart and soul is adequate enough to iron-out current issues with the series character/world/story-wise. Shadow's daddy is an evil alien overlord? Um, deal? And Shadow's parentage and past is not relevant any more. Blaze's backstory is a mess of contradictions? That's what retcons are for, not reboots. The characters don't do anything good or worthy any more? Write them better. The world the games are set in isn't interesting and isn't lovingly-developed? Unleashed says "Hi".

The "problems" with the series' aspects regarding it's world, characterizations and plots are nothing that better writing and a reassessment of current direction can't solve.

Nobody is saying it isn't, but I still don't understand how a reboot is such a terrible idea that apparently is something the series should NEVER do. I'm not arguing that better writing isn't a solution, nor am I saying a reboot is some magic fix button. I'm arguing why apparently a reboot is not an option, and never can be? If the all of problems you addressed can be done WITHOUT a reboot, what's stopping them from doing it with one?

Edited September 22, 2012 by Ragna the Bloodedge

[Nepenthe]

Because, like most things in this series, it's an idea born from a rumor, an idea that has the potential to make the series make up for it's crappy stories of the past, and create something that might make people actually care about the series again.

So is our idea.

if you're just going to ignore all of that anyway, how is a reboot a terrible idea in this case?

Because me ignoring the moon issue is not in any way equivalent to saying nothing in the entire 20 year span of time has not happened because I just can't stand the thought that the moon issue even exists, thus I need to address it directly by taking literally everything else down with it.

[Kuzu]

So is our idea.

But for some reason my idea is considered the shit one.

Because me ignoring the moon issue is not in any way equivalent to saying nothing in the entire 20 year span of time has not happened because I just can't stand the thought that the moon issue even exists, thus I need to address it directly by taking literally everything else down with it.

So now you're now you're generalizing to make yourself seem right, but I am obviously the one who's wrong and should be ignored...

I don't know how many times I said a reboot is not ONLY to erase all of the bad stuff in the series, but for them to try and create something new and potentially better than what was had before. This has been said so many times in this topic, I'm really tired of explaining it, and I'm beginning to think you don't really care about what I have to say.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Ragna the Bloodedge

[Soniman]

Or, you are just taking this way to personally.

[Chaos Warp]

Am I the only one that's neutral? I would not mind a reboot if it brought better writing and made something different and better then what we have and stuff, but we don't really need one for better writing and world-building, which is what I want most.

[Chooch]

From what I can tell, the major question and the basis of this whole argument is "What does a reboot solve that better writing does not?"

Am I getting that right?

[Burnt Ash]

Yeah, I haven't really kept up with this discussion for a while, but I agree with Chaos Warp's idea here. I'm not really up for a reboot if it means everything that I've come to enjoy is erased, but at the same time, if it brings us something brand new and better than what we have now, then, sure, I'd like it, I guess. I'd be more up for a partial reboot rather than a full reboot.

[Kuzu]

Or, you are just taking this way to personally.

[Burnt Ash]

Considering the general consensus is "Your idea is bad, and you should feel bad" I don't really think I'm unjustified in feeling that way.

[Komodin]

We have Shadow's backstory,

As of now, Black Doom and his kin are particles drifting in deep space, Emerl is hanging out with Vanilla as Gemerl, G.U.N. is no longer the corrupt SOB's they used to be, Gerald is posthumously redeemed, and Shadow has moved on. Unless there's some other thing from the past that hasn't been covered yet, I don't see why future stories have to elaborate upon it.

we had the whole Silver/Blaze/Nega fiasco

Silver: 200 years in the future.

Blaze: Alternate dimension.

Eggman Nega: More-or-less MIA, possibly dead.

Did I miss anything?

and the whole moon situation,

Retcon. Or, if you're that much in a demand for an explanation, following his battle with the Super Egg Robot in Sonic Advance, Sonic spent the few days on the Moon repairing it (...somehow).

again, if you're just going to ignore all of that anyway, how is a reboot a terrible idea in this case?

Presumably, because they feel that these aren't big enough issues to warrant the "DELETE FUCKING EVERYTHING" option?

[Kuzu]

Perhaps it's just me not keeping up with this topic, but is that really the general consensus?

Well it's how I feel personally, I'm pretty sure they'll tell you otherwise.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Ragna the Bloodedge

[Soniman]

No one is saying that at all, and I generally think the fact that people are arguing with you says that yes, they do indeed believe the idea of rebooting is a bad idea, we really wouldn't be arguing if we thought it was a good one.

Again, no one is attacking you personally as I've seen nothing but level headed criticisms from the people who oppose the idea.

[Vertekins]

I haven't seen any post in this topic that is condescending in any way, shape or form.

All I see is eloquent rebuttals as to why rebooting everything just because a few people aren't down with certain aspects of the series is the wrong way to go about things when all that is required for improvement is reconsideration of the direction the series is taking and improved writing, retconning "problem" (And I use the word "problem" loosely) areas, specifically making use of the world that already exists and actually giving characters other than Sonic, Tails and Eggman a purpose.

[Bright Eyes]

I don't think people properly understand what a 'reboot' is. A reboot is a big deal: it is essentially starting everything over from scratch. New character designs, stories, gameplay and level design concepts. I could think of nothing worse than re-designing one of the most iconic faces in gaming. Sure, reboots can be good (that Star Trek film for example) but I honestly don't see why Sonic needs an explicit reboot.

If it is merely about canon then why the heck do we need a radical reboot? I mean SEGA doesn't seem to care that much about the Sonic mythology right now.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Bright Eyes

[Kuzu]

As of now, Black Doom and his kin are particles drifting in deep space, Emerl is hanging out with Vanilla as Gemerl, G.U.N. is no longer the corrupt SOB's they used to be, Gerald is posthumously redeemed, and Shadow has moved on. Unless there's some other thing from the past that hasn't been covered yet, I don't see why future stories have to elaborate upon it.

Not so much elaborate, it's more they fucked up a respectable character's backstory.

Silver: 200 years in the future.

Blaze: Alternate dimension.

Eggman Nega: More-or-less MIA, possibly dead.

Did I miss anything?

Yes, and for a good few years before Iizuka said anything on the subject, we were pulling our hair out trying to make sense of this shit.

Retcon. Or, if you're that much in a demand for an explanation, following his battle with the Super Egg Robot in Sonic Advance, Sonic spent the few days on the Moon repairing it (...somehow).

If it's a retcon, what did Eggman use to demonstrate the Eclipse Cannon then?

Presumably, because they feel that these aren't big enough issues to warrant the "DELETE FUCKING EVERYTHING" option?

I did say that's not the only reason for it, and there are other possibilities than just getting rid of the bad stuff.

And honestly, this is a problem with the series now, everyone is so afraid of change; that the slightest alteration to the series is always met with either enormous amounts of cynicism, or outright rage. It's because of this Sonic Team aren't taking any risks themselves.