Rebooting the Franchise: Good or Bad?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Take it up with Faseeh, then:

...

Okay, Faseeh. Gonna have to recommend you keep in mind what you said previously before you say something completely opposite of that dude.

[Diogenes]

It's had the best Sonic games since Sonic and Knuckles: Sonic Generations and Sonic Colours!

Even if I agreed with that, what would we lose from a reboot? It's not as if a reboot would require them to ditch what they've learned from those games. And they sure as hell aren't being praised for their storytelling anyway.

[Wraith]

Seriously, some of these characters would hugely benefit from a new setting to tell stories in. It's not like the canon now is actually favored.

[Faseeh]

Because we usually don't ignore it? Okay, maybe in the case of Sonic 1, most of Sonic 2, and probably all of the spin-offs, but after that we tend to keep record of the series history and we have been for quite some while.

In summary, SA1 and 2 are very firmly established in the continuity as the beginning where Sonic got more intense and layered pots and become a catalyst of the ever so annoying demand of SA3. Heroes is well established primarily for revealing that Shadow is alive and the reintroducition of the Chaotix. ShTH and Sonic 06 are established in the sense of what this series either shouldn't be doing or as a lesson of what not to do in the series. Uneashed served as the beginning of Sonic's recovery point, Colors tried to push in full throttle, and Generations celebrates the gameverse's entire history all in one.

Kinda hard to ignore those details, and after 20 years of being attached it's even harder to want that to go away or be redone in the form of a reboot.

...

Okay, Faseeh. Gonna have to recommend you keep in mind what you said previously before you say something completely opposite of that dude.

You know what... I hardly thought about that... Now gimme a while. I'll go rethink what the hell I was trying to say but all in all, I am just not gonna like a reboot.

...

Okay, what I was trying to say is there are two ways to approach this. One way is what ChoasSupreme said. Another way is to look it from the other angle, like Unleashed not connecting with any of the conitinuity story-wise and the same for Colors. So, with Generations, kinda closing it up for now, the next game doesn't need to be advertised as a reboot. It could just do what Unleashed did. It was in one way a reboot but it was not told profoundly, just like SA1 to an extent.

I am hardly sure if that made any sense.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

You know what... I hardly thought about that... Now gimme a while. I'll go rethink what the hell I was trying to say but all in all, I am just not gonna like a reboot.

...

Okay, what I was trying to say is there are two ways to approach this. One way is what ChoasSupreme said. Another way is to look it from the other angle, like Unleashed not connecting with any of the conitinuity story-wise and the same for Colors. So, with Generations, kinda closing it up for now, the next game doesn't need to be advertised as a reboot. It could just do what Unleashed did. It was in one way a reboot but it was not told profoundly, just like SA1 to an extent.

I am hardly sure if that made any sense.

So...sorta reboot the series, but don't explicitly say so and don't make it obvious?

[Faseeh]

So...sorta reboot the series, but don't explicitly say so and don't make it obvious?

Either that because that doesn't hurt anybody that really don't want a reboot like me or don't reboot at all.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Wouldn't that be a "retcon" instead?

[WarioBone]

If you can pass a reboot off as just another game, you might as well not reboot at all.

I'm honestly pretty bored of the continuity we have now. I'd really like a new setting and new "roles" for every character, even if only once or twice. I feel like Sonic's world as we know it now has just dead-ended. Sonic's pretty much the character everyone wants him to be, Tails is independent and strong(ish), we know all about Knux (for the most part), Amy's...not...changing, Shadow's past has been explained and reconciled, Rouge has found her place in the world, and the Chaotix are...the Chaotix. Oh, and Metal Sonic's a punching bag, and Blaze, Silver, Big, and Omega are all useless.

The only person left who can really be expanded upon without needlessly throwing stuff in from out of nowhere is Eggman, and a lot of people are afraid of going into detail with his past (due to how Sonic Team has handled other origin stories). I'd really like a chance to see everyone in a new light, responding to new stimuli, interacting with characters in new ways, and visiting new places that have shades of older areas in them.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Ladies' Man Wario

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That's what retooling or developing new material is for when it comes to a dead end. It's not like there's absolutely nothing that can be done, but so long as you're competent enough to know how to pull off the material the stuff you can develop is theoretically endless.

[Diogenes]

... but so long as you're competent enough to know how to pull off the material the stuff you can develop is theoretically endless.

I don't really agree with that. Unless you're stretching the storytelling so thin as to essentially be doing nothing (see: Mario), you're going to run into a wall. If the characters have goals, either they reach a resolution (either they succeed or they fail), or they pursue them indefinitely. If the characters get stuck chasing the same goals and never making progress, the writing will become more and more contrived and the audience will get frustrated and lose interest. On the other hand, once an issue is resolved, you need to come up with something new to drive the character, and the cycle starts again. But the more you cycle through it, the more convoluted it becomes, the more difficult it becomes to find something viable. What can you do with a character that's accomplished everything he set out to achieve? What about after he's accomplished the dozen other things he set out to achieve after that? Eventually you reach a point where nothing logically follows, and again the writing becomes contrived.

That's not to say a series can't have a long, successful, and well-written life, just that there's a point where you've got to put a cap on it or resign it to a slow and painful death.

And the Sonic series, I feel, is close to the latter if things continue from here. The series didn't start with long-term goals. Standards were different back then, priorities were different back then. And the games since haven't built up that kind of structure either; most of the series has been self-contained stories that burn through character motivations about as quick as they come up. So we've got a series that's largely directionless and mostly worn out, and that's not a good foundation to build on.

[Nepenthe]

If a character has a goal that is not tenable or wasn't written to be so, the writing becomes contrived as the writers must find ways to keep his journey going. If a character is given multiple goals that he achieves throughout the stories, then one must continually give him new goals, upon which the writing becomes contrived as the writers keep having to think things up.

So basically it's damned if you do, damned if you don't?

That sounds unrealistically binary and doomsday-ish to me, or at least is not an inevitable conclusion relevant at this point in the series' lifespan considering it's done little storytelling compared to other mediums that crank out much more material like tv shows or comics. The characters are as established and static as they are because Sonic Team is not writing situations to provide them with conflict and development, not because any and all conflict has been explored and they're at the ends of their rope in the current universe.

[Diogenes]

So basically it's damned if you do, damned if you don't?

If you intend a series to go on forever, yes. "Theoretically endless" is only possible if you don't mind the quality going to shit.

The characters are as established and static as they are because Sonic Team is not writing situations to provide them with conflict and development

And this is, in part, because there is no existing structure to build on. Basically any sort of conflict has to be pulled out of the air because there's nothing in the series that it can come from naturally.

[Nepenthe]

If you intend a series to go on forever, yes. "Theoretically endless" is only possible if you don't mind the quality going to shit.

Sonic is not going to go on forever. Regardless, considering we only get a major story every two to three years, I'm not worried about the universe in its current form running dry of material and necessitating a hard reboot in my life time, much less am I convinced that we need a reboot very soon as a result of this point of no return you've conjured up.

And this is, in part, because there is no existing structure to build on. Basically any sort of conflict has to be pulled out of the air because there's nothing in the series that it can come from naturally.

I think that's a complete lack of imagination on your part. The major conflict between Sonic and Eggman, all of the relationships and rivalries that have occurred or could potentially occur between the extended cast, and various plot devices we've seen before like Eggman's mind control ray and the Master Emerald conundrum, are more than enough to spawn some interesting conflict on their own.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Remynaka]

Honestly a reboot would do nothing if you keep the same writers and they don't change how they view the series. So a reboot happens, GREAT JOB you banished all the bad game plot's and whatever. You've cleaned the room from the horrible nasty mess that was in it. You still have the shitty writers and THEY most likely didn't change their tone, so what do we get?

SmC the new sonic game that's even WORSE than Shadow, 06 and Heroes combined. Not saying this WILL happen but seriously rebooting this series does nothing I mean NOTHING simply just putting more care into the stories and moving on. There's a way to fix EVERYTHING without burning everything with fire. You can streamline events, you can put more character into the characters.. you can.. OMG FIX THINGS! All without having to bastardlize the entire series. Sonic needs a fix, not a wipeout of everything known to exist.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Vicki Turner

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

If you intend a series to go on forever, yes. "Theoretically endless" is only possible if you don't mind the quality going to shit.

But I highly doubt the series will continue forever. Maybe "Theoretically endless" wasn't the right word, but it is worth noting that we're not at a dead end here as it was implied.

[Kuzu]

I think Dio means that the series will go on indefinitely, and as of now there's no real "ending" in sight, no character arcs to build on, and most of the stories aren't built on outside the context of the game it's in. Because of that, Sonic Team will need to pull plotlines out of their ass to artificially lengthen the series, rather than it being built from something established.

In short, the series has of a monster of the week setup without anything connecting them aside from the characters involved, and a setup like that WILL get stale, regardless of quality.

[Remynaka]

Mario's been saving a princess since the 1980's. Link's been growing up since then as well, Ryu's been throwing hadokens since back then as well also. Do these get stale, yes. But here's the thing... nobody is complaining they need reboots and they continue to do the same things til this very day. Yeah settings change, characters come and go, but Sonic can't live on the monster of the week because it'll get stale? I just don't agree with that bit of logic, I mean if it's written well who is going to complain?

Edited September 30, 2012 by Vicki Turner

[Nepenthe]

I disagree entirely.

For one thing, almost every game's story is already built upon something established: Eggman attempts to take over the world using any manner of technological weaponry and Sonic and his friends fight him to prevent the world from entering into dictatorial state. It is literally all the set-up you need and it's a fairly good set-up at that, giving the series an element of identity but without boxing it into a corner that limits its storytelling capabilities with numerous complicated rules of canon and history.

Secondly, I disagree that quality is completely irrelevant to the picture. The quality is everything, the journey to the inevitable conclusion is most important than whether or not these games make it of primary importance to directly connect to and continue off of one another, and that there is nothing wrong with recurring set-ups and cliches for any series so long as you can explore them in an interesting way, either through sheer storytelling prowess or with a little twist in the context of that particular universe.

So no, I don't agree the games will get stale continuing down this road. The only reason the stories have is because Sonic Team has decreased the relevance of the plot in general. Seriously, no one hates Generations' narrative for being yet another self-contained story.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Nepenthe

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think Dio means that the series will go on indefinitely, and as of now there's no real "ending" in sight, no character arcs to build on, and most of the stories aren't built on outside the context of the game it's in. Because of that, Sonic Team will need to pull plotlines out of their ass to artificially lengthen the series, rather than it being built from something established.

In short, the series has of a monster of the week setup without anything connecting them aside from the characters involved, and a setup like that WILL get stale, regardless of quality.

They'd be doing themselves a massive disservice not building from something established. Hell, Knuckles has plenty of room for exploration regarding his civilization, and while Shadow's past is over and done with we can still make use of the things like Space Colony Ark and Prof. Gerald's research. Silver's future is generally unexplored, and Blaze's dimension has much more unknowns in it that Sonic's world.

Now I'm not against them making up plots from scratch, but when there's other tools that aren't even being used anymore when they haven't even began showing rust in them it goes without saying that Sonic Team is really missing out here.

[Kuzu]

Always feel better about responding after getting a meal.

Mario's been saving a princess since the 1980's. Link's been growing up since then as well, Ryu's been throwing hadokens since back then as well also. Do these get stale, yes. But here's the thing... nobody is complaining they need reboots and they continue to do the same things til this very day. Yeah settings change, characters come and go, but Sonic can't live on the monster of the week because it'll get stale? I just don't agree with that bit of logic, I mean if it's written well who is going to complain?

See, but Mario and Street Fighter don't put much focus on their narrative, at least to the degree that Sonic generally does, they rely on their gameplay to tell the quality of the product, and their games are consistently good in that regard. The reason nobody asks for a reboot on those series is because really, the developers don't care much for the story, so why should the people who buy the game? Now unless you're perfectly fine with Sonic Team completely forsaking story from this point onward, then no, there isn't anything wrong, but since so many people seem to care about story, it leads to reason that Sonic Team should try new and interesting plot elements and try to build on them outside of one game.

For one thing, almost every game's story is already built upon something established: Eggman attempts to take over the world using any manner of technological weaponry and Sonic and his friends fight him to prevent the world from entering into dictatorial state. It is literally all the set-up you need and it's a fairly good set-up at that, giving the series an element of identity but without boxing it into a corner that limits its storytelling capabilities with numerous complicated rules of canon and history.

Just like how the Monster of the Week plot got boring and old to most people, there are only but so many ways you can play up the "Eggman is trying to take over, stop him" angle before it too gets stale unless you're a master at storytelling, and I think it goes without saying that Sonic Team are not.

Secondly, I disagree that quality is completely irrelevant to the picture. The quality is everything, the journey to the inevitable conclusion is most important than whether or not these games make it of primary importance to directly connect to and continue off of one another, and that there is nothing wrong with recurring set-ups and cliches for any series so long as you can explore them in an interesting way, either through sheer storytelling prowess or with a little twist in the context of that particular universe.

This would be ok, but Sonic Team probably don't think that far ahead if both their past and current stories are anything to go by. If anything, it feels as if the series pulls specific plots outside of a hat, and just does whatever.

So no, I don't agree the games will get stale continuing down this road. The only reason the stories have is because Sonic Team has decreased the relevance of the plot in general. Seriously, no one hates Generations' narrative for being yet another self-contained story.

Considering it's an entire throwback to the series, I think it having no narrative connection to the previous entries in the series is a bit of a problem, in addition to everything else wrong with it.

They'd be doing themselves a massive disservice not building from something established. Hell, Knuckles has plenty of room for exploration regarding his civilization, and while Shadow's past is over and done with we can still make use of the things like Space Colony Ark and Prof. Gerald's research. Silver's future is generally unexplored, and Blaze's dimension has much more unknowns in it that Sonic's world.

Now I'm not against them making up plots from scratch, but when there's other tools that aren't even being used anymore when they haven't even began showing rust in them it goes without saying that Sonic Team is really missing out here.

That's exactly what I'm talking about, the plot threads that this series throws out that aren't resolved in one game tend to stay around and are eventually forgotten, such as the case with Knuckles and the Master Emerald. As a result both it, and the character it's related to feel tacked onto the series and have no definitive place. Characters need goals, they need drive otherwise why the hell should we care about them in the first place?

[Nepenthe]

Just like how the Monster of the Week plot got boring and old to most people, there are only but so many ways you can play up the "Eggman is trying to take over, stop him" angle before it too gets stale unless you're a master at storytelling, and I think it goes without saying that Sonic Team are not.

The overall criticism of Monster of the Week plots was not that they were extremely predictable in comparison to more traditional Eggman plots (because really, we know Eggman will always lose too), but that Eggman was always usurped at the last second and relegated to second banana. Eggman successfully gains control of Time Eater, and surprise surprise, no one cared so much that the final boss was yet another Monster of the Week fought as Super Sonic. Eggman gaining control was essentially the twist to the plot we've seen done before many times, inherently making it fresh and validating the cliche's continued use.

This would be ok, but Sonic Team probably don't think that far ahead if both their past and current stories are anything to go by. If anything, it feels as if the series pulls specific plots outside of a hat, and just does whatever.

You don't have to "think far enough ahead" to make an interesting story in the confines of the universe, which is the actual beauty of the whole thing.

Considering it's an entire throwback to the series, I think it having no narrative connection to the previous entries in the series is a bit of a problem, in addition to everything else wrong with it.

It directly connects to Colors.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That's exactly what I'm talking about, the plot threads that this series throws out that aren't resolved in one game tend to stay around and are eventually forgotten, such as the case with Knuckles and the Master Emerald. As a result both it, and the character it's related to feel tacked onto the series and have no definitive place.

Well the material is still there, and it can still be built upon. It's not like the series is going stale anytime soon, but while there is a risk of that there are ways to avoid it. Storywise, Sonic Team have yet to hit that point, but I don't think we should let them go the easy way with this.

It took a lot of fussing for them to get their act together after the screw-up that was Sonic 06, and it also took a lot of fussing for Classic Fans to get their Sonic 4 (even though it wasn't to their standards), and they still heard some fans when they not only asked for Classic Sonic in general after Sonic 4, but for the character to be silent. I think it goes without saying that we need to get a bigger voice out there for Sonic Team to hear us about this issue.

Characters need goals, they need drive otherwise why the hell should we care about them in the first place?

Because they're cool?

[Phos]

I think it's cool when Knuckles is in the games if that's the case. No backsies.

What's funny about this argument is that were the quality of writing to improve I suspect that it would be difficult to discern which side got their way. Whatever plot threads still linger are, in the words of George Orwell, "a lot of shit, you know that?"

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think it's cool when Knuckles is in the games if that's the case. No backsies.

Yeah, my grandma can troll better than that, dude.

What's funny about this argument is that were the quality of writing to improve I suspect that it would be difficult to discern which side got their way. Whatever plot threads still linger are, in the words of George Orwell, "a lot of shit, you know that?"

I don't see how improving the writing means someone got their way. Improving it would mean doing it better, and that would mean we would likely have better plots, better characterization, etc. If anything, everyone would benefit unless they either didn't want the writing to improve or do away with the narrative altogether.

[Phos]

Yeah, my grandma can troll better than that, dude.