Rebooting the Franchise: Good or Bad?

[Kuzu]

She is sexualized. The people who created her want her to be sexy. And alot of her dialogue supports that. 

What dialogue.

[daman825]

What dialogue.

here we go. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwV8ay8TBc8

Granted that's a 4kids dub. But it still proves my point.

 

here's her SA2 theme

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ6hcPXdZ2g

 

She says this in sonic colors DS

"Such a hard worker! How's about I give you a kiss for your troubles?"

 

Here's a real good example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwP_FXGk9Nc

Edited September 7, 2013 by daman825

[Jet Prower]

When it comes to rouge, its all a matter of opinion. For me personally, she is my least favorite character of the entire series. The way she is portraited, acts and dresses, is just a massive turn off to me. I hate girls that think they are all that, try and use their sexual ways to get what they want and just act like they are the best thing around. Any girl that is like that is just bleh to me personally. On a side note though, I've had one or two people before try and drill into me how much they want to sexualize her and make her sluttier and such to where it just became even more of a turn off to me. I much prefer someone with a personality and such to Blaze, besides the fact I enjoy cats alot.

 

As mentioned by others, to where I think most agree now, just use the characters as needed and people likely won't complain that much. As long as you don't throw the characters out and instead just use them as needed, its not really that bad of a thing at all. Some of these characters likely shouldn'tbe in all games, with exception of maybe Tails, since well, he is like the little brother that is almost always with Sonic, so you should almost expect him in the game. Still, just use them as needed, don't force it or throw them out totally.

[Kuzu]

here we go. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwV8ay8TBc8

Granted that's a 4kids dub. But it still proves my point.

 

here's her SA2 theme

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ6hcPXdZ2g

 

She says this in sonic colors DS

"Such a hard worker! How's about I give you a kiss for your troubles?"

 

Here's a real good example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwP_FXGk9Nc

 

 

1. You're using 4kids dialogue to show a character touted as sexy....yea

 

2. What about it?

 

3. So a kiss is suddenly too sexy for kids to understand?

[Uraraka]

I  may remember a certain Amy Rose kissing Sonic in almost every Sonic x episode.... and one where Sonic said "this is not a kissing booth..." 

  but yeah, @ Jet: I agree. I do not like the idea of creating a "sexy" Rouge. like I said, I would prefer if they re designed her appearance at least!

[daman825]

1. You're using 4kids dialogue to show a character touted as sexy....yea

 

2. What about it?

 

3. So a kiss is suddenly too sexy for kids to understand?

1. Yeah I am. Sega was pretty involved with Sonic X, Rouge acted like that because that's the character Sonic Team created. And that's how they wanted her portrayed. Sega is protective of their characters. If they didn't want people to think that the Rouge in sonic X has the same personality as the Rouge in the game, they would have forced a change pretty quickly.

2. It's pretty obvious the singer is trying to be seductive or sexy. especially with those sound effects.

3. We are deciding whether or not Rouge is a sexualized character. Not whether or not a kid knows what a kiss is. Notice the exclamation point? She praised sonic for being such a "hard worker" and then asked if he wanted a kiss as a reward for that "hard work". dialogue like that is pretty common for that character trope. 

 

Then again, i don't see why you and I are arguing this. Just because Rouge is sexualized doesn't mean she is a bad character. I just feel that that makes her a bad sonic character. Or at least one of the least important. Which is why if they need to remove characters (which i think they do) then she would be the first to go in her current state.

I  may remember a certain Amy Rose kissing Sonic in almost every Sonic x episode.... and one where Sonic said "this is not a kissing booth..." 

  but yeah, @ Jet: I agree. I do not like the idea of creating a "sexy" Rouge. like I said, I would prefer if they re designed her appearance at least!

It's the beginning of the quote. The part where she says "your such a hard worker! how about I give you a kiss?" Amy would never say that. I mean, variations of that quote are used all the time by sexualized characters. It's expected with the territory.

 

Maybe reading it in Rouges voice would do it for you. Based on how she says everything else, it's pretty obvious how she would say that quote.

Edited September 7, 2013 by daman825

[Jet Prower]

I  may remember a certain Amy Rose kissing Sonic in almost every Sonic x episode.... and one where Sonic said "this is not a kissing booth..." 

  but yeah, @ Jet: I agree. I do not like the idea of creating a "sexy" Rouge. like I said, I would prefer if they re designed her appearance at least!

 

If they could make her to where she is just an excelent sneaky spy character then she wouldn't be so bad. Cover her up, shrink her down a bit, and make her not sound as deep or as mature, flirty as she sounds and she may not be a bad character. Its just her current portrayal that doesn't sit well with me. I would never wish any character out of this series, but she is one of the few characters that I do think could use some tweaking.

[Brad]

I'm all down for cutting down the cast of characters, but it's completely unfair to label Rouge a slut. Not only do I not believe in the word in itself because of its extreme misogynistic bullshit, but the character has literally nothing exposed to imply sexual demeanour. A character can have the "sexy trait" without itself being made inappropriate, and/or neither should a character be defined by said trait. A female character can express sexy without it wanting to seduce things.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Symbotic

[Jet Prower]

I'm all down for cutting down the cast of characters, but it's completely unfair to label Rouge a slut. Not only do I not believe in the word in itself because of its extreme misogynistic bullshit, but the character has literally nothing exposed to imply sexual demeanour. A character can have the "sexy trait" without itself being made inappropriate, and neither should a character be defined by said trait.

 

Why should we have to cut down on the characters when we can just use them when needed? I dont see any need to just throw these characters out at this point. We only need to bring the characters out when it is neccessary or needed for the stories or games. We don't need to force it. Just tossing them out would mean we wouldn't ever see them again or they could never be used ever again in the future. I don't think that is the solution at all.

[daman825]

I'm all down for cutting down the cast of characters, but it's completely unfair to label Rouge a slut. Not only do I not believe in the word in itself because of its extreme misogynistic bullshit, but the character has literally nothing exposed to imply sexual demeanour. A character can have the "sexy trait" without itself being made inappropriate, and neither should a character be defined by said trait.

I took back what I said earlier in my second post, and she does have quite a bit exposed to imply sexual demeanor. There is almost no point in arguing that anymore. I also never said Rouge was defined exclusively by her sexuality. But I will adamantly defend that she was designed to be sexy.  

 

 

EDIT--nvm found it. Bayonetta is rated M for: blood & gore, Intense Violence, Partial Nudity, Strong Language, and Suggestive themes. Seems the ESRB deems the lead character in Bayonetta to be inappropriate enough to warn potential customers about it in the rating description. I heard that's a good game though.

 

 

But what I want to know is why are you using a character in an M rated game as justification for  (current) Rouge existing in an E rated game? Don't you think that appropriateness is defined by the age of the audience consuming said material? Is a slasher film inappropriate?  no, but having a character kill another character in a childrens cartoon is.

Edited September 7, 2013 by daman825

[Diogenes]

Quick question. Bayonetta is rated M right? On the back of the Bayonetta box, what does it list as the reasons for it being rated M?

You're not seriously going to try to make a point out of this, are you.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I feel I have walked into a world where I am better off not saying anything about the current debate, so:

 

Rebooting the franchise doesn't really mean much of anything if the writing doesn't improve. I would have included examples of the current writers, but ever since the whole "They were not really allowed to do anything with the stories since they were already written out for them and thus they could only do dialogue" thing came out, and considering the reveal of that Lost World Cutscene, I'm giving them the benefit of a doubt for this time. Although only barely, since they DID still write some iffy dialogue.

Edited September 7, 2013 by 743 ED Missile

[daman825]

You're not seriously going to try to make a point out of this, are you.

Yeah, I am. He claimed that the main character in Bayonetta is not inappropriate. I'm asking for who? What is and is not appropriate varies greatly on age and maturity. But mainly, I wanted to know why he was comparing Rouge to Bayonetta. 

 

Whats the big deal?

[Brad]

I took back what I said earlier in my second post, and she does have quite a bit exposed to imply sexual demeanor. There is almost no point in arguing that anymore. I also never said Rouge was defined exclusively by her sexuality. But I will adamantly defend that she was designed to be sexy.  

 

 

EDIT--nvm found it. Bayonetta is rated M for: blood & gore, Intense Violence, Partial Nudity, Strong Language, and Suggestive themes.

 

Why are you using a character in an M rated game as justification for  (current) Rouge existing in an E rated game? 

 

I never said she wasn't designed with sexy in mind. I'm saying a character who is designed with sexy in mind doesn't have to just be this "slut" character with no more dimensions than to flirt with characters to get what they want. Bayonetta was a sexualised character purposefully with curves and such to express a style of "femininity", but she was a hell of a lot more than that - she was kickass witch who was smart and resourceful. Rouge may have the elements of a sexy character but throwing the word slut onto an underdeveloped character in a, as you say, E rated game, is just stupid.

 

Bayonetta is not an excuse for Rouge to become a character like her - I'm saying Bayonetta is an example of a sexy female character with multiple dimensions which some can argue Rouge sorely lacks.

[daman825]

I feel I have walked into a world where I am better off not saying anything about the current debate, so:

 

Rebooting the franchise doesn't really mean much of anything if the writing doesn't improve. I would have included examples of the current writers, but ever since the whole "They were not really allowed to do anything with the stories since they were already written out for them and thus they could only do dialogue" thing came out, and considering the reveal of that Lost World Cutscene, I'm giving them the benefit of a doubt for this time. Although only barely, since they DID still write some iffy dialogue.

This is another huge issue that needs to be resolved. IMO Sonic Team has a ways to go till they create another truly amazing sonic game. Their writing has been getting better. But it's still not quite there yet. It's obvious the talent is there though.

I never said she wasn't designed with sexy in mind. I'm saying a character who is designed with sexy in mind doesn't have to just be this "slut" character with no more dimensions than to flirt with characters to get what they want. Bayonetta was a sexualised character purposefully with curves and such to express a style of "femininity", but she was a hell of a lot more than that - she was kickass witch who was smart and resourceful. Rouge may have the elements of a sexy character but throwing the word slut onto an underdeveloped character in a, as you say, E rated game, is just stupid.

 

Bayonetta is not an excuse for Rouge to become a character like her - I'm saying Bayonetta is an example of a sexy female character with multiple dimensions which some can argue Rouge sorely lacks.

Wait...Why are we in disagreement? 

 

 

Anyway, I already apologized for that "rouge is a slut". I don't know why you keep bringing it up like I still believe it. And yes, I agree with most of what you are saying. Rouge isn't only a sex icon. But I feel like I can say with confidence that one of the main goals for creating her was to make her look sexy. It's very apparent in every piece of clothing she has on. Both Bayonetta and Rouge may be smart and independent, but that doesn't mean that either of them fit in a world that was created to, and still is made to, appeal to children. That's all I'm saying

Edited September 7, 2013 by daman825

[Sonic The Badass]

How did this go from reboot to how Rouge dresses and acts? anways she feels like a sexualized female clone of knuckles, I don't like her attitude either. I fully agree with jet. and I would be perfectly fine with her leaving. 

[Jet Prower]

How did this go from reboot to how Rouge dresses and acts? anways she feels like a sexualized female clone of knuckles, I don't like her attitude either. I fully agree with jet. and I would be perfectly fine with her leaving. 

 

I think it went to the topic because if there was a reboot, she would be one of the issues people would want to deal with if there ever was one. I don't think she should leave if there was one, but she would definately benefit from a bit of a makeover/attitude change. She is one of the few characters I would actually say this about, due to me honestly not minding most characters out there.

[Chaos Incarnate]

I think it went to the topic because if there was a reboot, she would be one of the issues people would want to deal with if there ever was one. I don't think she should leave if there was one, but she would definately benefit from a bit of a makeover/attitude change. She is one of the few characters I would actually say this about, due to me honestly not minding most characters out there.

She wears different outfits in a lot of the games she's in, so I suppose a makeover change wouldn't be too hard. Attitude change? What is it she does that warrants an attitude change, aside from maybe flirting with some of the characters?

Edited September 8, 2013 by Chaos Incarnate

[Jet Prower]

She wears different outfits in a lot of the games she's in, so I suppose a makeover change wouldn't be too hard. Attitude change? What is it she does that warrants an attitude change, aside from maybe flirting with some of the characters?

 

I guess with me, its just the way she is is all. I know its bad to stereotype characters that act a certain way, but it just is the way she goes about things. When you are flirting to get what you want, that just comes off as being someone that would go ALL THE WAY to get what they want as well. It just comes across as being like someone that would put their body out there just to get some jewels. In my personaal opinion, I just don't like girls that think they are all that, so it holds true that I would not like rouge as well.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Yeah, and you know what that is? A Madonna-Whore Complex that stereotypes characters like Rouge into sluts for something as minor as flirting and/or looking attractive in such a manner. I suppose it's just too much to ask for people to stop treating or seeing female characters so black and white? Especially when male characters who do the same aren't treated as such.

[ArtFenix]

Yeah.. At least Rouge has actual clothes on her, lol xD.

[Jet Prower]

Yeah, and you know what that is? A Madonna-Whore Complex that stereotypes characters like Rouge into sluts for something as minor as flirting and/or looking attractive in such a manner. I suppose it's just too much to ask for people to stop treating or seeing female characters so black and white? Especially when male characters who do the same aren't treated as such.

 

As I said, it is somewhat of a stereotype, but at the same time, it comes down to preferences as well. It is honestly no wonder girls get called sluts if they flaunt it and act like oooooooh whenever they see something they want. Using your body to distract people to get what you want just sounds like one to be honest. And believe me, I know guys do it too. There are such things as man whores. Guys do use their bodies to get the things  they want as well. It just sometimes comes down to how it is all perceived.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

As I said, it is somewhat of a stereotype, but at the same time, it comes down to preferences as well. 

And at the same time, that's no excuse.

 

 

As I said, it is somewhat of a stereotype, but at the same time, it comes down to preferences as well. It is honestly no wonder girls get called sluts if they flaunt it and act like oooooooh whenever they see something they want. Using your body to distract people to get what you want just sounds like one to be honest. And believe me, I know guys do it too. There are such things as man whores. Guys do use their bodies to get the things  they want as well. It just sometimes comes down to how it is all perceived.

Yet when men do it, they're awesome for it. It's amazing how girls can't flaunt their looks as a good thing compared to guys.

 

It comes down to a little devil we like to call "double standards" that we would all be better off without, at the very least we could stop insulting women for something a minor as flirting. I mean, really, if Rouge was actually sleeping around with every guy she met that's one thing (but still no excuse for slut shamming), but you're gonna stretch an inch to a mile and criticize her over something like flirting? 

 

If you were in their place, you wouldn't like half the negative stuff that's directed to them for something like that.

Edited September 9, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Jet Prower]

So you are saying I can't have a preference for a particular kind of personality? To me, there is a difference between flirting and flaunting. Flirting is when you show honest interest in someone and you are being rather nice to them to try and get their attention. Flaunting is when you are just showing things off to get what you want with no interest in the other person at all. At the same time, when guys are running around acting like they like girls but they dont and just want to get in their pants, I dislike them as well. I have no double standard at all on this matter. There is just a difference between a honest girl that likes others and a slutty girl that just wants to use her body to get things to me.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

So you are saying I can't have a preference for a particular kind of personality? 

No, I'm saying don't judge a book by its cover, or in this case don't stereotype people (real or fictional) by their actions and define women in such narrow categories of "honest woman" and "a slut." Because that's the very complex I was talking about.

 

Rouge may be a flirt, but when's the last time she's actually flaunted anything? Better yet, what was it she was flaunting? Here we have a female character with large breasts and a shapely body, yet has never actually flaunted them in the manner you're making out to get what she wants. Most, if not all of the time, when she attempts to get what she wants, she does the exact opposite of flaunting her body and straight up fist-fights people to get what she's after, or search for them on her own, or steal it when people aren't looking.

 

This very character who, in her debut game SA2, went toe-to-toe with a flying mech armed with a machine gun, laser cannon, and missile launcher in a high security military base and beat it with nothing her bare hands...er, feet. And after than she took on the resident powerhouse, Knuckles the Echidna, the most physically powerful character in the series in hand-to-hand combat. Where was the flaunting there?

 

And what's more? It's funny and paradoxical that the only sexual thing she has done whenever she's present is flirt with other male characters, and yet you went and judged her as if she'll go all the way like a slut who flaunts her body when she has yet to do so. All this makes me doubt you see a difference between flirting and flaunting when you still call a flirt someone who flaunts her body like a slut.

Edited September 9, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc