Rebooting the Franchise: Good or Bad?

[Diogenes]

Whil I am against some of the plots in Sonic history, I just don't want to see some of the characters backstories done all over again. Especially Shadow. Leave it as it is.

They wouldn't need to devote an excessive amount of time to every character's backstory. Plus, it would give them a chance at writing backstories that don't suck, so it wouldn't be just a repeat of the same story.

Sega can make good Sonic games without rebooting the franchise.

I'll start caring about this argument when it starts happening.

[UltDevilDoom]

I'll start caring about this argument when it starts happening.

Go play Sonic Generations.

[Diogenes]

Already did. It isn't good. It's Unleashed Day with boring platforming stapled to S4E1.

e: And a bit more relevant to the topic at hand, the story is an utter waste. All that built up backstory didn't do shit.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Diogenes

[RidersDX]

I don't understand why so many people are against a reboot. It's not like Sega is actually erasing these backstories we've gotten to know out of history, they're just simply saying that the story they were telling is done. Shadow's backstory has been done for a long time, as with others. While perhaps alot of people here want to see these characters grow more and more, you just eventually come to a point where there's just nothing new you can tell. This is ignoring the numerous plot holes and inconsistent story telling styles we've seen these past few years as well.

I'd treat a reboot as not a replacement, but as a new story with our favorite characters that wouldn't have been possible with the same timeline. It's like all those superhero franchises that have numerous alliterations with their variois movies, TV shows, video games, comics, etc.

Edited June 10, 2012 by RidersDX

[UltDevilDoom]

Already did. It isn't good. It's Unleashed Day with boring platforming stapled to S4E1.

e: And a bit more relevant to the topic at hand, the story is an utter waste. All that built up backstory didn't do shit.

You missed the whole point of the story in Generations. The story was purposely thin for that game. I wish it was a little deeper myself, but a thin story was what Sega aimed for. Also, the controls in Sonic Generations were not nearly as pizza-greased as Unleashed and did not have a bad boost system like Unleashed. I still hate the whole level-up boost idea.

It would be stupid of Sega to reboot the franchise for yet another reason: Sonic 4: Episode 2. It was good, but it was missing the glory of the Genesis days. Also, it got hit hard by a lot of reviewers. How will Sega please the seemingly unpleasable Genesis fans? Oh, I forgot. Generations did that, more or less.

Go play Generations again. I doubt you beat it.

[Diogenes]

You missed the whole point of the story in Generations. The story was purposely thin for that game.

So it's okay to be shit if you're purposely shit? Doesn't sound like a good way to run this series, intentionally making shit.

Also, the controls in Sonic Generations were not nearly as pizza-greased as Unleashed

That's true, there are minute improvements to the controls. Unfortunately the overall formula is still bad.

and did not have a bad boost system like Unleashed.

Yes it did. It had the boost, which is bad.

It would be stupid of Sega to reboot the franchise for yet another reason: Sonic 4: Episode 2. It was good,

Haha, no it wasn't. Also how is this a reason.

How will Sega please the seemingly unpleasable Genesis fans? Oh, I forgot. Generations did that, more or less.

Guess who's got two thumbs and isn't pleased.

Go play Generations again. I doubt you beat it.

You only doubt I beat it because you're using it to construct a delusion wherein you don't have to consider that you may be wrong. I've beaten it, and I got every achievement to boot.

[Nepenthe]

I don't understand why so many people are against a reboot.

People are against a reboot because there's no real incentive to do one right now. SegaSonic canon is not DC or Marvel canon. There's very little in the way of logic or precedent within the current universe that would prevent you from telling a multitude of stories with the current cast. I don't see the ending of a character's personal arc- such as the tale of Shadow's backstory- as reason. He's not "done" or "over" just because we have a history for him; give him a new damn arc. Create a situation, toss him into it, and see what he'll do. And the biggest plothole that probably needs to be addressed is the one concerning Blaze's dimension of residence, but why in the world would you reboot the entire universe for that one issue concerning a minor character? You wouldn't. You either solve it on the back end or you do what Sega's done thus far and ignore it.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

You missed the whole point of the story in Generations. The story was purposely thin for that game. I wish it was a little deeper myself, but a thin story was what Sega aimed for. Also, the controls in Sonic Generations were not nearly as pizza-greased as Unleashed and did not have a bad boost system like Unleashed. I still hate the whole level-up boost idea.

It would be stupid of Sega to reboot the franchise for yet another reason: Sonic 4: Episode 2. It was good, but it was missing the glory of the Genesis days. Also, it got hit hard by a lot of reviewers. How will Sega please the seemingly unpleasable Genesis fans? Oh, I forgot. Generations did that, more or less.

Go play Generations again. I doubt you beat it.

Word of Advice when dealing with Diogenes on Sonic Unleashed formula:

He is relentless and very brutal in his responses. He won't hold back on his beliefs regardless of the opinion of others.

Flimsy responses, well intentioned or otherwise won't have any effect on him; you are going to need a much stronger argument.

[Diogenes]

People are against a reboot because there's no real incentive to do one right now.

Ditching the weight of the existing canon in favor of stronger characters and more focused storytelling sounds like a pretty good incentive to me.

[Nepenthe]

Ditching the weight of the existing canon in favor of stronger characters and more focused storytelling sounds like a pretty good incentive to me.

What weight? The stories we've had for years are so episodic that there's no tangible weight to the canon currently stringing them along in the first place.

And stronger characters and more focused storytelling can be had without rebooting.

[RidersDX]

People are against a reboot because there's no real incentive to do one right now. SegaSonic canon is not DC or Marvel canon. There's very little in the way of logic or precedent within the current universe that would prevent you from telling a multitude of stories with the current cast.

This is true, due to the numerous inconsistent story-telling styles of past games that made this universe so expansive in the first place. Not saying it means this must be fixed immediately, because I know many people see it as a positive. But those people are the ones that probably don't care how Sega handles the story as long as the gameplay is great. But I think if Sega really wanted to take story-telling up a notch and give it more of a focus, there will need to be more consistency. I don't see why Sega shouldn't go in a Marvel/DC like direction. It's created insanely popular franchises and I personally think it really gives Sonic unbelievable freedom in overall directions he can go in. If you want light-hearted Sonic games, they can create a canon like that. If you're into something more complicated, you can have a canon for that. Unfortunately, I don't think Sega has the resources for such an ambitious project.

I don't see the ending of a character's personal arc- such as the tale of Shadow's backstory- as reason. He's not "done" or "over" just because we have a history for him; give him a new damn arc. Create a situation, toss him into it, and see what he'll do.

This really depends on how capable the writers are of continuously creating great stories for these characters. And what you're suggesting is something I have yet to see these writers do. I'm not saying it's impossible, but there are numerous examples of all sorts of media declining in quality due to just a drought in ideas. You can notice how alot of long-lasting canons are those where a deep story is not the main concern. Like sitcoms (Simpsons, Family Guy, etc.) or Mario. I just think Sega would naturally have an easier time writing a greater story with a reboot than trying to expand on the stories of characters that already had a climax in their development.

And the biggest plothole that probably needs to be addressed is the one concerning Blaze's dimension of residence, but why in the world would you reboot the entire universe for that one issue concerning a minor character? You wouldn't. You either solve it on the back end or you do what Sega's done thus far and ignore it.

What has ignoring done to Blaze and Silver? Basically keep them out of any major roles of future games. And that's upsetting to me because I think these two characters have potential. The thing about trying to work with the current canon is the more you add to it, the more limited you get with what you can do. And that plothole particularly plagues Blaze and Silver from ever making a major Sonic game appearance ever again. Of course, if you didn't like these characters, you'd probably have no problem with it. And a reboot could possibly just axe these two characters anyway. But my point is a reboot only gives Sega more freedom, and that's why I don't see it as a bad thing.

[Diogenes]

What weight? The stories we've had for years are so episodic that there's no tangible weight to the canon currently stringing them along in the first place.

The characters' personalities, the setting, the way various objects work...I'm not going to argue that the series has some rock solid and inflexible canon, but it's not as if they're starting things fresh with every game either.

And stronger characters and more focused storytelling can be had without rebooting.

Can they? When they've essentially committed to being vague and disconnected, can they suddenly turn that around and tell a real story that actually logically follows from what came before?

[Soniman]

Can they? When they've essentially committed to being vague and disconnected, can they suddenly turn that around and tell a real story that actually logically follows from what came before?

Generations and Colors did.

[Diogenes]

Both games completely wasted their concepts, Colors on lame jokes and Generations on...well, nothing, it kind of just didn't do anything. And they still largely conform to previous games anyway.

[Soniman]

They still directly connect to one another, as in, actual explanation on how they connect.

[Diogenes]

In what is basically a throwaway line. Generations could've happened exactly the same without Colors just by changing that one little bit, a bit which is overall irrelevant to the story.

[Soniman]

The entire plot of Generations was explained in that "throwaway line", it's pretty damn crucial.

[RidersDX]

Generations and Colors did.

By putting as little attention towards the story as possible. Trying to ignore the sudden change like that is really just another word for taking the easy way out.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I don't know the relevance of this question, but since it does sorta cover rebooting, I'll post it here:

If you absolutely had no choice but to reboot Shadow the Hedgehog (the character, not the game), and you weren't allowed to use the original story he was given, what story would you give him?

I'll post this on the Shadow Topic, since that seems to be a more relevant place.

[Diogenes]

The entire plot of Generations was explained in that "throwaway line", it's pretty damn crucial.

No, it really isn't. The entire plot of Generations is that Eggman gets a time travel monster, teams up with his past self, and attempts to wreck Sonic's shit. Where he got the time travel monster is irrelevant. It's quite possibly the most irrelevant of any of the monsters in the series.

If you absolutely had no choice but to reboot Shadow the Hedgehog (the character, not the game), and you weren't allowed to use the original story he was given, what story would you give him?

To what extent are we locked out? No ULF, no Gerald, no Maria, no ARK? Can he still be artificially created? What if it's a different sort of artificially created besides test tube baby?

[Nepenthe]

This is true, due to the numerous inconsistent story-telling styles of past games that made this universe so expansive in the first place. Not saying it means this must be fixed immediately, because I know many people see it as a positive. But those people are the ones that probably don't care how Sega handles the story as long as the gameplay is great. But I think if Sega really wanted to take story-telling up a notch and give it more of a focus, there will need to be more consistency. I don't see why Sega shouldn't go in a Marvel/DC like direction. It's created insanely popular franchises and I personally think it really gives Sonic unbelievable freedom in overall directions he can go in. If you want light-hearted Sonic games, they can create a canon like that. If you're into something more complicated, you can have a canon for that. Unfortunately, I don't think Sega has the resources for such an ambitious project.

I like the universe's current expansiveness and I'm one of most outspoken members of better storytelling on this forum; no need to stir up generalizations, eh? I further believe that it's the expansiveness that creates potential to tell a multitude of stories, and that going for comic book-styled consistency (what an oxymoron) will serve to suppress it; it's very easy to kill potential avenues for storytelling by continuously dictating what a character, object, or place isn't capable of due to canon. Also, Marvel and DC canon aren't the only successful universes out there, so why does Sega need to follow their route?

This really depends on how capable the writers are of continuously creating great stories for these characters. And what you're suggesting is something I have yet to see these writers do. I'm not saying it's impossible, but there are numerous examples of all sorts of media declining in quality due to just a drought in ideas. You can notice how alot of long-lasting canons are those where a deep story is not the main concern. Like sitcoms (Simpsons, Family Guy, etc.) or Mario. I just think Sega would naturally have an easier time writing a greater story with a reboot than trying to expand on the stories of characters that already had a climax in their development.

If it's difficult to write interesting stories because the writers are incompetent in some way, how would rebooting solve the problem? A reboot doesn't address the issue- that being the current crop of writers- thus it's a non-solution.

I also don't think it's good to compare Sonic to Family Guy or The Simpsons. The former gives us one major story a year; the latter ranging anywhere from thirteen to twenty-plus per season, and you can have two or three seasons a year? Your great great grandchildren would be dead by the time Sonic achieved the amount of storytelling Family Guy has now; forget The Simpsons. I extend your comparison's inadequacy to Mario too: the main Mario games don't serve to tell their stories the way Sonic does anyway.

And I don't see the difference between a character that has climaxed with a single arc and a character essentially without one. Both have clean slates; any difference between their potential for interesting storytelling is pretty negligible and limited only by your imagination.

What has ignoring done to Blaze and Silver? Basically keep them out of any major roles of future games. And that's upsetting to me because I think these two characters have potential. The thing about trying to work with the current canon is the more you add to it, the more limited you get with what you can do. And that plothole particularly plagues Blaze and Silver from ever making a major Sonic game appearance ever again. Of course, if you didn't like these characters, you'd probably have no problem with it. And a reboot could possibly just axe these two characters anyway. But my point is a reboot only gives Sega more freedom, and that's why I don't see it as a bad thing.

I disagree; the current canon is so loose in its actual workings that solving the issue of Silver and Blaze is just as likely to have a neutral effect on canon than stifle it. In fact, I would bet on the former- figuring out a way for two characters separated from the main cast to appear any time they want adds another layer of freedom on top of the current pile they already have. Answer me this as well: What's now impossible for Sega to write about either due to the rules they've set in place beforehand or because certain characters can't perform an appropriate task or role due to an arc they've gone through?

The characters' personalities, the setting, the way various objects work...I'm not going to argue that the series has some rock solid and inflexible canon, but it's not as if they're starting things fresh with every game either.

Never argued that they start completely fresh each game; just that what they're starting with isn't inhibiting interesting storytelling.

Can they? When they've essentially committed to being vague and disconnected, can they suddenly turn that around and tell a real story that actually logically follows from what came before?

Yes. There's nothing canonically or atmospherically wrong with a logically-flowing plot when applied to the Sonic universe. The only thing preventing this from being viable is the public's insistence on being hostile to any storytelling more ambitious than what we saw in Colors and Generations.

Edited June 10, 2012 by Nepenthe

[SenEDDtor Missile]

To what extent are we locked out? No ULF, no Gerald, no Maria, no ARK? Can he still be artificially created? What if it's a different sort of artificially created besides test tube baby?

You can use the characters, their basic personalities and settings, just not the original story. also, I have no real restrictions in terms of HOW he is made.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

After giving it some more thought regarding my "You can't use the original story" thing, I think it would be better if I just posted a rough draft of what I mean.

This story is vaguely based on Sonic Heroes, but it's got bits and pieces of other stories where it is needed.

Sonic gets teleported to another dimension as a result of a freak Chaos Control. After he manages to get back via a different game before this one, he suddenly finds himself under attack by military forces, and his friends seem to think he has gone nuts. After some minor sleuthing around, he discovers that someone has been running around pretending to be him and terrorizing people. He is attacked en masse and ends up barely escaping, landing in front of a certain groups doorstep.

Sonic wakes to find himself in the house/hovel of the Chaotix, a group of hard on their luck detectives, who after a cutscene discussing what to do, decide to turn him in for the money, so they can pay the bills. (For the record, this version of the Chaotix doesn't know Sonic personally, they just needed money.) But Sonic, comically dumping all of the rings he has on him, which would probably be a lot considering he picks up a lot of them during his adventures (I treat rings as currency) in front of them, hires the Chaotix to help prove his innocence and to expose this doppleganger.

Many stages later, after Sonic and Chaotix work to regain the trust of Sonic's friends, they confront the doppleganger in a boss battle (with a possible, "Who's the real Sonic" cutscene with Amy as the decision maker for the lulz.)

The doppleganger is revealed, in front of the military and everyone else, as Metal Sonic, and a final battle ensues with Eggman backing up Metal with his laser beam attack (That one in Stardust Speedway, except this battle isn't a race, more of a direct confrontation).

But, this is just a rough idea.

[UltDevilDoom]

Word of Advice when dealing with Diogenes on Sonic Unleashed formula:

He is relentless and very brutal in his responses. He won't hold back on his beliefs regardless of the opinion of others.

Flimsy responses, well intentioned or otherwise won't have any effect on him; you are going to need a much stronger argument.

Noted. From your description and his posts, he sounds like the Total Shadow of Sonic Unleashed.

Just so you know, I'm almost always fine with reading other posts and seeing other people's opinions. The exceptions are the noobs, like Total Shadow. I can't stand Total Shadow because he posts shitbags of Shadow worship-ness and doesn't listen to anyone. Ever.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Noted. From your description and his posts, he sounds like the Total Shadow of Sonic Unleashed.

Just so you know, I'm almost always fine with reading other posts and seeing other people's opinions. The exceptions are the noobs, like Total Shadow. I can't stand Total Shadow because he posts shitbags of Shadow worship-ness and doesn't listen to anyone. Ever.

I wouldn't go THAT far; he is brutally honest, but he has restraint... I think...Actually I'm not sure.