The Trayvon Martin Case

[Tornado]

I really dislike the use of photos of Trayvon Martin having tattoos or gold teeth or even doing drugs. I mean, does that make him a bad person? Using that to judge Trayvon is stereotyping to me.

I'd say the pictures of Martin on Facebook of him smoking dope are pretty damn material to the case, considering:

Public accusations of a cover-up have also been made, ranging from police pressuring witnesses, unnecessary drug testing of Martin, and ultimately to Zimmerman's father, who works in law, having influenced the lack of arrest.

The media didn't "racialize" the case. The entire situation had inherent connotations pertaining to race relations in this country, from the fact that Trayvon was drug-tested and George wasn't

 

 

 

 

 

The only reason I would feel those pictures of Trayvon from his social accounts would be posted is to make an implication about his character, you know that whole "black men are thugs" dealio that has been a prominent feature of the character assassination he's gone through.

 

Stereotyping (and racism) is bad. I get it. Not all black teens who wear hoodies and look "shifty" are thugs who are going to hurt you and steal shit from you (though it was rarer to see someone actually say that than it was for the rebuttal to be given).

 

 

But I'm seeing increasingly less evidence that Martin specifically wasn't... um... a thug (or at least some wannabe idiot a la Riley Freeman), so I have to ask: Just what exactly would he have had to done in his life to make it so we don't have to treat him as if he was a saint without being racist?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, something isn't character assassination if the person in question actually did those things. The thing with Zimmerman, where the media dragged out just how totally racist he was, up to purposely manipulating evidence of the case and similarly misrepresenting facts from something that happened a decade ago? That's character assassination.

 

Showing the pictures Martin posted to Facebook of him smoking drugs (after allegations that there was no need to drug test him; because drug testing a kid with a history of drug use to see if he was on drugs at the time of the shooting is racist, yo), or his history of violence to that point, or the fact that he was only in the neighborhood temporarily to get him to stop fighting people in his own neighborhood? That's making relateable information for the case public knowledge.

[Nepenthe]

One of the problems people are having in regards to Trayvon's pictures is the purely moral implications it inevitably leads to regarding the fact that he's now dead.

 

Let's assume it's true that Trayvon was indeed a pure and true thug. With his history of fighting, we can now assume he would be just as prone as starting a confrontation with Zimmerman as Zimmerman would have been considering Zimmerman's history of violence. Maybe Trayvon did indeed throw the first punch. In fact, let's say he definitely did, the fight follows however it went, and Trayvon still ends up dead via gunshot.

 

Now, what are we supposed to ultimately conclude- on a purely moral basis (not a legal one, because I know, Florida's shitty law essentially allowed this; no one needs to keep hammering this home)- from this particular scenario in regards to the actions of Trayvon?

[Stacy]

Even the media over here never posted any of those photos. Just goes the show the media will manipulate and spin anything to their advantage normally they usually go for the more conservative news crowd. But they got the socially conscious side hook line and sinker and I admit even I took a bite on that hook.     

[Cynicalx]

No one cares about this now, Zimmerman is free.

[SkyLlama]

Oh...I wouldn't say that. People still care, even if you do not.

Edited August 12, 2013 by SkyLlama

[Roarey Raccoon]

Total tragedy this. One guy dead and another marked for life by what happened. I feel for both sides.

 

One little thing though, judging Trayvon by facebook photos is some serious bullshit. A huge chunk of male culture is dominated by displaying violence, sexual aggression and drug use. It's not exactly a shock to see people caught up in such a culture when their environments are saturated with it.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Total tragedy this. One guy dead and another marked for life by what happened. I feel for both sides.

 

One little thing though, judging Trayvon by facebook photos is some serious bullshit. A huge chunk of male culture is dominated by displaying violence, sexual aggression and drug use. It's not exactly a shock to see people caught up in such a culture when their environments are saturated with it.

A culture that teaches people to get even when they feel like they've been shat on, yet said society that indirectly enforces said culture locks them up for it...classy.

[Autosaver]

Associated Press: Zimmerman's wife calls police after Zimmerman points gun at both her and her father

[daman825]

I don't believe Zimmerman is a racist. But he definitely should have served time for what he did. Those stand your ground laws are incredibly stupid and need to go asap.

 

Also, I don't think it's right to judge Martin based off of those pictures. Like, at all.

 

He smoked weed? I guess smoking weed is all it takes now for young teenagers to justly be labeled as thugs who go around stealing things and attacking police officers.

 

Fact of the matter is, Zimmerman acted like a complete and total moron when he decided to pursue Martin. And it led to getting an innocent young man killed.

Edited September 9, 2013 by daman825

[Nepenthe]

Associated Press: Zimmerman's wife calls police after Zimmerman points gun at both her and her father

 

You know how suspicious those estranged wives can act.

[Tornado]

Also, I don't think it's right to judge Martin based off of those pictures. Like, at all.

 

He smoked weed? I guess smoking weed is all it takes now for young teenagers to justly be labeled as thugs who go around stealing things and attacking police officers.

 

It's all it takes to justify testing his blood for drugs after he was killed, as opposed to the allegation that doing so was racist.

[Nepenthe]

Speaking of the drug-testing, I meant to ask beforehand: did the police even know who Trayvon was when they got on the scene?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Associated Press: Zimmerman's wife calls police after Zimmerman points gun at both her and her father

...

Zimmerman, dude...really not helping your case man.

[Tornado]

Speaking of the drug-testing, I meant to ask beforehand: did the police even know who Trayvon was when they got on the scene?

 

When they got on the scene? No. But they knew who he was by the next day, which was the same day the autopsy was conducted.

[Johnny Boy]

Associated Press: Zimmerman's wife calls police after Zimmerman points gun at both her and her father

Does this guy seriously think he's invincible or something? You think he would do the smart thing and lay low since he's pretty much a marked man.

[daman825]

It's all it takes to justify testing his blood for drugs after he was killed, as opposed to the allegation that doing so was racist.

I already said this shouldn't be about race. I don't know why your bringing this up.

 

Whether or not Martin was high has nothing to do with how much of an idiot Zimmerman is for chasing him. The fact of the matter is, Zimmerman made the stupid decision to follow Martin because he wanted to be a hero. This led to an innocent kid getting shot. Zimmerman should have served time. But based on that recent news article, it looks like he's starting to show his true colors. He's probably gonna be behind bars soon anyway.

Edited September 9, 2013 by daman825

[Patticus]

All of this - his two speeding incidents, the visit to the gun manufacturer and now this, points toward a man with a severe God complex. He will probably kill again.

[Tornado]

I already said this shouldn't be about race. I don't know why your bringing this up.

Because there is a reason those photos are relevant to this case, and it has nothing to do with people just wanting an outlet to say "Martin smoked weed so he must have been a thug who stole shit." Also, the the fact that he was caught by police in possession of items thought to be stolen 4 months prior and seemingly fairly frequently got into fights with people (to the extent that he bragged about it) does far more for that concept anyway.

 

 

Whether or not Martin was high has nothing to do with how much of an idiot Zimmerman is for chasing him. The fact of the matter is, Zimmerman made the stupid decision to follow Martin because he wanted to be a hero. This led to an innocent kid getting shot.

For a certain manner of "innocence," I suppose. Zimmerman made the stupid decision to follow Martin (though beyond that none of us have any idea of his intentions); and the kid with a history of fighting who was only ever in the neighborhood in the first place to keep him from fighting certainly might have decided that he was going to pick a fight with the guy that was following him around that night rather than take shelter in his house that a witness put him at (albeit secondhand) before he was shot.

Which is kind of an important thing to consider when arguing against a self-defense plea with a 2nd degree murder charge, but they instead just kinda went with "well, he might have been hiding instead;" even though "convicted through reasonable suspicion" isn't how trials work and even him hiding doesn't really mean that he was hiding to actually get away from Zimmerman.

Zimmerman should have served time.

Served time for what? Actual question I'm asking you. The ludicrous charges they actually tried to stick him with? Manslaughter? Criminal negligence?

[daman825]

Because there is a reason those photos are relevant to this case, and it has nothing to do with people just wanting an outlet to say "Martin smoked weed so he must have been a thug who stole shit." Also, the the fact that he was caught by police in possession of items thought to be stolen 4 months prior and seemingly fairly frequently got into fights with people (to the extent that he bragged about it) does far more for that concept anyway.

 

 

For a certain manner of "innocence," I suppose. Zimmerman made the stupid decision to follow Martin (though beyond that none of us have any idea of his intentions); and the kid with a history of fighting who was only ever in the neighborhood in the first place to keep him from fighting certainly might have decided that he was going to pick a fight with the guy that was following him around that night rather than take shelter in his house that a witness put him at (albeit secondhand) before he was shot.

Which is kind of an important thing to consider when arguing against a self-defense plea with a 2nd degree murder charge, but they instead just kinda went with "well, he might have been hiding instead;" even though "convicted through reasonable suspicion" isn't how trials work and even him hiding doesn't really mean that he was hiding to actually get away from Zimmerman.

Served time for what? Actual question I'm asking you. The ludicrous charges they actually tried to stick him with? Manslaughter? Criminal negligence?

1. Did Martin have a juvenile record? Those "stolen" items? Did he get charged for "stealing" them? And what him smoking weed have anything to do with what happened?

 

2. Yeah, Zimmerman acted  like and is a complete idiot. It's a FACT that Martin ran away. And it's a FACT that Zimmerman confronted him after he was told he didn't have to. 

 

3. Lastly, I find it funny your using the fact that Martin got in fights as a reason to attack Zimmerman. Because Zimmerman just got taken into custody for threatening his wife with a gun. Sounds like he's just looking for excuses to pull the trigger huh?

 

4. And yeah, I'm no law expert, but I would lock him up for some form of manslaughter. I know your trying to bait a certain response with that last point. But honestly, if there was nothing that Zimmerman could go to jail over, the judge wouldn't have heard the case. The fact that the judge spent that much time listening to the case instead of dismissing it means the prosecution had ground for their arguments.

 

Oh, and you should probably check your map. or at least provide evidence that that map shows what really happened. A quick google search shows alot more paths that that. 

[Tornado]

1. Did Martin have a juvenile record? Those "stolen" items? Did he get charged for "stealing" them?

No he wasn't. He also wasn't charged for being caught having the burglary tools on his person, which is totally a crime that ordinarily one is arrested for. As is having marijuana and smoking parapanelia on school grounds, which he was also caught with and is (unlike many states) still extremely illegal in Florida. As far as his juvenile record, most would find that not as straightforward a question to answer as it should have been.

 

 

And what him smoking weed have anything to do with what happened?

Okay. I'm going to be nice about this. Read through this thread. Start at the very beginning, when people were speaking out against him having his blood tested on racial grounds. You'll see exactly why the Facebook pictures of him smoking weed were relevant. It's been explained several times in the past few pages, and if you have time to strawman people into the tired "stop saying he is a thug based on irrelevant thing x" idea, you have time to read the actual reasoning.

 

2. Yeah, Zimmerman acted  like and is a complete idiot. It's a FACT that Martin ran away. And it's a FACT that Zimmerman confronted him after he was told he didn't have to.

 

The second FACT is nothing more than your assumption of what happened. That a confrontation happened and Martin didn't live through it is the only fact, and one of the witnesses said Martin confronted Zimmerman rather than the other way around. Hell, who started the confrontation isn't even always pertinent in relation to a justifiable homicide/self defense plea anyway; nor is the fact that Zimmerman ignored the advice of a police dispatcher when looking around for Martin

 

3. Lastly, I find it funny your using the fact that Martin got in fights as a reason to attack Zimmerman.

 

No. I'm using the fact that Martin got in fights to the extent that he was temporarily moved out of his neighborhood so he would stop as a reason to believe that he might have attacked Zimmerman on that night.

 

 

Because Zimmerman just got taken into custody for threatening his wife with a gun. Sounds like he's just looking for excuses to pull the trigger huh?

And how many people did he point guns at in arguments (to establish his history of pointing guns at people like Martin's history of fighting people) before his life was pretty much destroyed by a complete farce of a media-run trial?

 

 

Also, about that gun she said he had:

Shellie Zimmerman called 911, saying her estranged husband was in his truck and threatening her and her father with a gun. She also said her husband punched her father in the nose. Hours later, she told police she hadn’t seen a gun.

Police said no gun was ever found and the former couple blamed each other for being the aggressor.

Linky.

 

4. And yeah, I'm no law expert, but I would lock him up for some form of manslaughter. I know your trying to bait a certain response with that last point.

No. I'm trying to get an answer for what he exactly should have served time for, since you're so convinced he was guilty of something without any elaboration of what.

 

But honestly, if there was nothing that Zimmerman could go to jail over, the judge wouldn't have heard the case. The fact that the judge spent that much time listening to the case instead of dismissing it means the prosecution had ground for their arguments.

"Ability to file charges" doesn't mean anything remotely resembling "establishing guilt." That also doesn't come close to answering the question.

 

Oh, and you should probably check your map. or at least provide evidence that that map shows what really happened. A quick google search shows alot more paths that that.

Again. Read the thread. The page that map was linked from was shown in a long list of facts of the case that most people were unaware of and linked to only 3 pages ago; and was only presented by me in this specific debate as a "this is what might well have happened and the state never proved otherwise" rather than "this is what happened."

Edited September 11, 2013 by Tornado

[daman825]

No he wasn't. He also wasn't charged for being caught having the burglary tools on his person, which is totally a crime that ordinarily one is arrested for. As is having marijuana and smoking parapanelia on school grounds, which he was also caught with and is (unlike many states) still extremely illegal in Florida. As far as his juvenile record, most would find that not as straightforward a question to answer as it should have been.

 

 

Okay. I'm going to be nice about this. Read through this thread. Start at the very beginning, when people were speaking out against him having his blood tested on racial grounds. You'll see exactly why the Facebook pictures of him smoking weed were relevant. It's been explained several times in the past few pages, and if you have time to strawman people into the tired "stop saying he is a thug based on irrelevant thing x" idea, you have time to read the actual reasoning.

 

 

The second FACT is nothing more than your assumption of what happened. That a confrontation happened and Martin didn't live through it is the only fact, and one of the witnesses said Martin confronted Zimmerman rather than the other way around. Hell, who started the confrontation isn't even always pertinent in relation to a justifiable homicide/self defense plea anyway; nor is the fact that Zimmerman ignored the advice of a police dispatcher when looking around for Martin

 

 

No. I'm using the fact that Martin got in fights to the extent that he was temporarily moved out of his neighborhood so he would stop as a reason to believe that he might have attacked Zimmerman on that night.

 

 

And how many people did he point guns at in arguments (to establish his history of pointing guns at people like Martin's history of fighting people) before his life was pretty much destroyed by a complete farce of a media-run trial?

 

 

Also, about that gun she said he had:

Linky.

 

No. I'm trying to get an answer for what he exactly should have served time for, since you're so convinced he was guilty of something without any elaboration of what.

 

"Ability to file charges" doesn't mean anything remotely resembling "establishing guilt." That also doesn't come close to answering the question.

 

Again. Read the thread. The page that map was linked from was shown in a long list of facts of the case that most people were unaware of and linked to only 3 pages ago; and was only presented by me in this specific debate as a "this is what might well have happened and the state never proved otherwise" rather than "this is what happened."

1.  What "burglary tools" did he have? Based on how most police officers treat African Americans, they probably tried their hardest to pin something on Martin. But they couldn't. Instead of creating crazy conspiracy theories, lets just realize that he probably didn't steal the jewelry. And nice far right website you linked to; not even going to bother answering it. (It is incredibly stupid though).

 

2.  So if I got in one fight with a fellow school kid, and was caught with a bong. I rightly should be viewed as a pariah? Yes or no? And I'm not those other posters, I literally could care lass about the drug testing. So why do you keep bringing it up?

 

3. No, everything I posted was a fact. Did you hear the call with the dispatcher? Zimmerman followed Martin, was told he didn't have to pursue, and then confronted Martin by yelling at him.And..... Using Zimmerman as a trusted witness? haha

 

4. He got into one fight with one kid, stop using fights (plural). I got into a fight with a 17 year old kid in high school once after he started saying crap about me. Does that mean i'm gonna try to kill some middle aged man following me at night?

 

5. Again, one fist fight is not "a history of getting into fist fights" And his life destroyed by a farce media run? I'll let you say the media skewed things. But that's not why everyone hates him. They primarily hate him because he shit an innocent teenager. He's a big boy and should have been ready to suffer the consequences of doing something like that. Instead, he threatens his wife.

 

6. And that link is missing some valuable information. Supposedly "Zimmerman's attorney, Mark O'Mara, said Zimmerman had a gun holstered to his body." 

link

 

 

7. Did you read my post? " I would lock him up for some form of manslaughter" is exactly what I said word for word. But after thinking about it more. I could see murder and criminal negligence. 

 

8. If you don't have evidence backing up that map, then there was no reason to post it as it serves absolutely no value to this discussion whatsoever. I don't care about "what might well have happened", I care about "what happened".

 

8. " 

[Tornado]

1.  What "burglary tools" did he have?

3. No, everything I posted was a fact. Did you hear the call with the dispatcher? Zimmerman followed Martin, was told he didn't have to pursue, and then confronted Martin by yelling at him.And..... Using Zimmerman as a trusted witness? haha

4. He got into one fight with one kid, stop using fights (plural). I got into a fight with a 17 year old kid in high school once after he started saying crap about me. Does that mean i'm gonna try to kill some middle aged man following me at night?

5. Again, one fist fight is not "a history of getting into fist fights"

8. If you don't have evidence backing up that map, then there was no reason to post it as it serves absolutely no value to this discussion whatsoever.

Alright. I tried being nice about it, to at least get you nudged towards reading the previous pages, but that stops now. Read this link here. Comment on this case with the perspective of someone who is informed rather than someone who is commenting with a predetermined viewpoint. Then respond to this post. Otherwise don't waste your breath, because you're just repeating the same arguments from when the trial first ended; except you're doing them even more of a disservice with your counterpoints.

 

 

 

Also:

 

Based on how most police officers treat African Americans, they probably tried their hardest to pin something on Martin. But they couldn't. Instead of creating crazy conspiracy theories, lets just realize that he probably didn't steal the jewelry.

 

Stop being such a hypocrite. A school district trying to fudge crime rates so a kid with prior criminal activity didn't lead to arrests is hardly a conspiracy theory. That would barely even be a political scandal if such a thing was exposed in any other context.

The "he was black, so of course they would have gotten him if they tried even if he didn't do it" argument, on the other hand, sounds like something Jessie Jackson would say. Believe it or not, not every police force on the country is looking to fill their prisons with the most black people possible.

 

2. So if I got in one fight with a fellow school kid, and was caught with a bong. I rightly should be viewed as a pariah? Yes or no?

Stop the strawmanning. The latter one in particular is important for a long membership here. You don't do any discussion any benefit by intentionally misrepresenting what the other people are saying; and that applies doubly so for a debate where the sides are already emotionally charged.

 

And nice far right website you linked to; not even going to bother answering it. (It is incredibly stupid though).

Ah. The "not even going to bother" response. That makes it easy for me if when shown something that refutes what you say you just blow it off.

 

 

And I'm not those other posters, I literally could care lass about the drug testing. So why do you keep bringing it up?

I wasn't aware I was the one who originally said:

He smoked weed? I guess smoking weed is all it takes now for young teenagers to justly be labeled as thugs who go around stealing things and attacking police officers.

All I did was respond that the smoking weed photos were relevant, and why. You're the one who has blown your stack every time I attempt to point it out.

 

But that's not why everyone hates him. They primarily hate him because he shot an innocent teenager.

Don't let the sound of reasonable doubt damage that backbone of a case you've got going here.

 

He's a big boy and should have been ready to suffer the consequences of doing something like that.

Right. Fuck that old racist asshole who may very well not have done the horrible racist shit everyone is now claiming he definitely did. We sure as shit can't prove what happened beyond an initial bout of poor judgement on Zimmerman's part, but lets ruin his life anyway. That way we'll catch him when he kills again! That's what justice is about, after all.

 

Instead, he threatens his wife.

He allegedly threatened his currently-separated wife. I say allegedly, because she recanted what she originally said happened; and now the police aren't sure whether charges will even be filed because they don't know if anything actually happened that night. The fact of the matter is, Zimmerman is pretty fucking far from the first person to go through a nasty divorce or a domestic dispute with his soon-to-be-divorcee; and if this was literally anybody else short of OJ Simpson this wouldn't even be news.

 

6. And that link is missing some valuable information. Supposedly "Zimmerman's attorney, Mark O'Mara, said Zimmerman had a gun holstered to his body."

link

 

A local CBS affiliate said that Zimmerman's lawyer said Zimmerman had a gun. And the direct police statement said otherwise.

 

 

7. Did you read my post? " I would lock him up for some form of manslaughter" is exactly what I said word for word.

Yes. Do you read your own posts? I was responding to the part where you claimed there was an ulterior motive for me asking you what you think should have been done.

 

But after thinking about it more. I could see murder and criminal negligence.

Of course you do. So how was it murder when there was a reasonable claim of self-defense based on the lack of information? How was it criminal negligence when there isn't a concrete chain of events showing that Zimmerman's actions led directly to Martin's death?

 

I don't care about "what might well have happened", I care about "what happened"

Then it's a pity that your particular, carefully filtered version of the truth is what you are treating as the definite truth; and that you know so little about the criminal justice system that you don't grasp that it is the prosecution's job to disprove the "what might well have happened" part in addition to proving the "what happened" one. The definite facts of the case end after the 911 dispatcher call ended, and didn't start up again until Martin was shot and police arrived. Everything between was a "he said/she said."

Who started the fight, whether Zimmerman justifiably felt his life was in danger once it went down, and even whether or not Martin was able to get away or not but chose to go back are all facts of the case that were in question. And none of which were facts that the prosecution of the case made a particularly good job refuting the "might well haves" for them.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Tornado

[daman825]

Alright. I tried being nice about it, to at least get you nudged towards reading the previous pages, but that stops now. Read this link here. Comment on this case with the perspective of someone who is informed rather than someone who is commenting with a predetermined viewpoint. Then respond to this post. Otherwise don't waste your breath, because you're just repeating the same arguments from when the trial first ended; except you're doing them even more of a disservice with your counterpoints.

 

 

 

Also:

 

 

Stop being such a hypocrite. A school district trying to fudge crime rates so a kid with prior criminal activity didn't lead to arrests is hardly a conspiracy theory. That would barely even be a political scandal if such a thing was exposed in any other context.

The "he was black, so of course they would have gotten him if they tried even if he didn't do it" argument, on the other hand, sounds like something Jessie Jackson would say. Believe it or not, not every police force on the country is looking to fill their prisons with the most black people possible.

 

Stop the strawmanning. The latter one in particular is important for a long membership here. You don't do any discussion any benefit by intentionally misrepresenting what the other people are saying; and that applies doubly so for a debate where the sides are already emotionally charged.

 

Ah. The "not even going to bother" response. That makes it easy for me if when shown something that refutes what you say you just blow it off.

 

 

I wasn't aware I was the one who originally said:

All I did was respond that the smoking weed photos were relevant, and why. You're the one who has blown your stack every time I attempt to point it out.

 

Don't let the sound of reasonable doubt damage that backbone of a case you've got going here.

 

Right. Fuck that old racist asshole who may very well not have done the horrible racist shit everyone is now claiming he definitely did. We sure as shit can't prove what happened beyond an initial bout of poor judgement on Zimmerman's part, but lets ruin his life anyway. That way we'll catch him when he kills again! That's what justice is about, after all.

 

He allegedly threatened his currently-separated wife. I say allegedly, because she recanted what she originally said happened; and now the police aren't sure whether charges will even be filed because they don't know if anything actually happened that night. The fact of the matter is, Zimmerman is pretty fucking far from the first person to go through a nasty divorce or a domestic dispute with his soon-to-be-divorcee; and if this was literally anybody else short of OJ Simpson this wouldn't even be news.

 

 

A local CBS affiliate said that Zimmerman's lawyer said Zimmerman had a gun. And the direct police statement said otherwise.

 

 

Yes. Do you read your own posts? I was responding to the part where you claimed there was an ulterior motive for me asking you what you think should have been done.

 

Of course you do. So how was it murder when there was a reasonable claim of self-defense based on the lack of information? How was it criminal negligence when there isn't a concrete chain of events showing that Zimmerman's actions led directly to Martin's death?

 

Then it's a pity that your particular, carefully filtered version of the truth is what you are treating as the definite truth; and that you know so little about the criminal justice system that you don't grasp that it is the prosecution's job to disprove the "what might well have happened" part in addition to proving the "what happened" one. The definite facts of the case end after the 911 dispatcher call ended, and didn't start up again until Martin was shot and police arrived. Everything between was a "he said/she said."

Who started the fight, whether Zimmerman justifiably felt his life was in danger once it went down, and even whether or not Martin was able to get away or not but chose to go back are all facts of the case that were in question. And none of which were facts that the prosecution of the case made a particularly good job refuting the "might well haves" for them.

*EDIT* After thinking about it for a while, I realize I should not have posted that there. Sorry guys, not trying to start anything.

Edited September 12, 2013 by daman825

[Solkia]

dat ad hominem

[daman825]

dat ad hominem

*EDIT* look at post above (The part about me not being mad is still true though).

Edited September 12, 2013 by daman825