The Trayvon Martin Case

[-Robin-]

What exactly are the Degrees of Murder?

Typically, there are three different degrees of murder, with first-degree being the most extreme, and third-degree being the least extreme. There are many different interpretations of n-degree murder, but Florida law has it down as (bolded parts included by me):

1st-degree:

1. When perpetrated from a premeditated design to effect the death of the person killed or any human being;

2. When committed by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:

a. Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),

b. Arson,

c. Sexual battery,

d. Robbery,

e. Burglary,

f. Kidnapping,

g. Escape,

h. Aggravated child abuse,

i. Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,

j. Aircraft piracy,

k. Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,

l. Carjacking,

m. Home-invasion robbery,

n. Aggravated stalking,

o. Murder of another human being,

p. Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person,

q. Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism; or

3. Which resulted from the unlawful distribution of any substance controlled under s. 893.03(1), cocaine as described in s. 893.03(2)(a)4., or opium or any synthetic or natural salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium by a person 18 years of age or older, when such drug is proven to be the proximate cause of the death of the user,

is murder in the first degree and constitutes a capital felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082.

The murder was completely intentional. The murderer premeditated this crime well in advance, and had no hesitations about what he or she was about to do.

2nd-degree:

The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(3) When a person is killed in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any [crimes listed in the first degree murder charge list]

by a person other than the person engaged in the perpetration of or in the attempt to perpetrate such felony, the person perpetrating or attempting to perpetrate such felony is guilty of murder in the second degree

The murder was done out of malice or rage, but was not done so out of premeditation. This is more of a "spur of the moment" kind of crime.

3rd-degree:

The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated without any design to effect death, by a person engaged in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any felony other than any [charges listed in the 1st-degree murder charge list]

is murder in the third degree

The murder was done on accident when another crime was taking place, be it burglary, arson, etc.

The Zimmerman case best fits the 2nd-degree charge, as Zimmerman had no prior knowledge or history of Martin (that we know of) beforehand that would motivate him to kill Martin.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Modern Tom

[Conando]

Its bullshit, its was never meant to be used to carry guns around like a mobile phone it was for Milita purposes only and protection of certain property, plus it was written in 1791, shit has changed since then, like no slaves, not likely to be invaded by the British etc....

Oh, you'd just like us to think that, wouldn't you? LIMEY BASTARD.

But seriously, I can't believe how long it actually took to charge Zimmerman with murder. Apparently, 2nd degree carries a maximum sentence of life in prison, and the prosecutor of the case is a madwoman who always pursues the maximum sentence.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Crow T. Robot

[Old dead account]

I see. It does sound like a 2nd degree case

[Johnny Boy]

Piers Morgan is covering the case right now and the interview with Zimmerman's brother is coming up soon. And I just saw Zimmerman's most recent mugshot and I must say, he's lost a hell of a lot of weight.

EDIT: Interview with Robert Zimmerman Jr. going on right now. And he's spewing bullshit like last time, "George had to save his life by taking a life", give me a fucking break.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Dark Energon Johnny

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I remember we had a thead about the "Stand Your Ground" law a while ago. I ranted about it quite a bit, going so far as to say people might use the law as an excuse to get away with murder

This is one of those times I'd have prefered to have been proven wrong.

Funny enough, in that same topic this is also one of the examples where I said that law shouldn't/doesn't apply, ain't it?

Edited April 12, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Mono]

Piers Morgan is covering the case right now and the interview with Zimmerman's brother is coming up soon. And I just saw Zimmerman's most recent mugshot and I must say, he's lost a hell of a lot of weight.

EDIT: Interview with Robert Zimmerman Jr. going on right now. And he's spewing bullshit like last time, "George had to save his life by taking a life", give me a fucking break.

I'm going to watch this when they repeat the show. What you quoted is such a bullshit excuse.

[DGam'r]

He's finally in there, earlier today my Civics teacher said he wasn't found guilty. I'm finally glad Trayvon's family now can have the justice they deserved.

[-Robin-]

What? The trial hasn't even started yet, and won't start for quite a while.

[Nepenthe]

I think she means that the police initially believed Zimmerman's account of the events and was let go, not that he was formally acquitted.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Nepenthe

[-Robin-]

Yeah, that makes more sense. Just an odd choice of words then.

Regardless of the verdict of the case, I'm worried this will see the same reactions that the Casey Anthony case brought out. We don't need more death threats and the like during the aftermath.

[Emmett L. Brown]

Funny enough, in that same topic this is also one of the examples where I said that law shouldn't/doesn't apply, ain't it?

You're right there, CSS. Unfortunately, that specific law was cited as the reason the police didn't investigate Zimmerman.

Anyway, I'm glad the authorities got their shit together and decided to do their job, and I still hope the Stand Your Ground law is revoked entirely.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Grumpy Old Guy

[Nepenthe]

Of course Trayvon felt threatened. He called his girlfriend with suspicions of being followed. He ran away from Zimmerman, and Zimmerman pursued him on foot which can be heard in one of his calls. Trayvon was also caught on someone else's 911 call screaming for help before being blown away.

Stand your ground ceases to be a defense when you start an altercation but start getting your ass kicked because you picked the wrong fight (arguably Zimmerman wasn't getting his ass kicked anyway; you can see how he looks in the police station video the night he was brought in for questioning). Trayvon should've been fighting him off. He should have punched him. Zimmerman threatened his life, and it is obvious in the fact that this child is dead.

[Nepenthe]

There are parts of the Stand Your Ground law that can allow you to claim self-defense- even in situations where it wouldn't apply- and get off with absolutely no legal ramifications whatsoever even if you happen to kill someone, hence why they're sometimes deemed "shoot first, ask questions later" laws. This is why Zimmerman was let go. It is that very law that would have allowed him to get away scot-free had this not blown up into a media firestorm.

[Nepenthe]

There are already self-defense laws on the books to largely keep that from happening in the first place, so Stand Your Ground isn't new shit or arguably even necessary. You know how many more people have been spared from jail time beforehand in cases of self-defense?

[Your Vest Friend]

Seeing the BBC coverage of it. They're not really clear on the situation themselves.

[Emmett L. Brown]

But imagine how many people have been thrown in prison because they protected theirselves in a legitimate situation. If I were getting mugged on the street, I'd be glad to have a law in place to keep me from going to jail for protecting myself.

Quick question, SpikySprinter, you fun-loving conservative, you. Would you say that mugging should be a death penalty-worthy crime? How about burglary? Harassment? Petty theft? Looking threatening while trespassing? Being a black teenager in a hoodie, walking down the street in an unfamiliar neighbourhood, threatening a creepy white guy stalking you?

Me, I'd much rather leave that question up to the legal system (minus that law you're so fond of) rather than the everyman.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Grumpy Old Guy

[Nepenthe]

Do you deserve the right to "do whatever it takes", e.g. kill someone, when you yourself start the fight but soon discover that people have a tendency to fight back?

[Nepenthe]

None of your posts actually answer this question because you make no differentiation between a fight that turns tides. If Zimmerman initiated the altercation but Trayvon fought back, does Zimmerman then have the right to shoot him under Stand Your Ground which allows you to do this if you believe your life is in danger?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I wanna answer anyway.

Would you say that mugging should be a death penalty-worthy crime?

Not really, unless the guy has that intent to kill me. But usually, mugging in this case only requires the victim to fight the guy off and get the hell out of there. Killing him could practically be excessive force.

How about burglary?

If the guy's in my house, I'm shooting the guy right then and there. I'll give him one warning to put everything down and leave before I open fire tho, otherwise I'd probably be charged with murder...I think.

Harassment? Petty theft? Looking threatening while trespassing? Being a black teenager in a hoodie, walking down the street in an unfamiliar neighbourhood, threatening a creepy white guy stalking you?

Now having any of these be a death-worthy crime is just sick. It's practically Jim Crow all over again, if not worse.

[-Robin-]

The original drafters of Florida's Stand Your Ground law have publicly claimed that Zimmerman lost his SYG defense the second he ignored the 911 operator that told him to not confront Trayvon.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Modern Tom

[Nepenthe]

By your logic, Trayvon would've been thrown in jail for defending himself.

The fuck are you talking about?

In other news, here is the court affidavit. A pretty decent summation of events any following this case probably figured out by now, except the whole racial epithet thing; the prosecution's going with "punks."

Edited April 12, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Nepenthe]

You assumed I had a specific opinion on how SYG would've applied in a scenario where Trayvon managed to kill Zimmerman, and that the logic of said opinion would lead me to believe Trayvon deserved jail time, even though nothing I've said in this topic supports such a ludicrous outcome. When you assume positions I don't even have out of nowhere, I get annoyed and frankly have a right to, hence why I asked what the fuck you were talking about.

I was asking you that question to understand how you viewed SYG laws so we could continue a discussion in that regard, because I honestly had no idea where you were coming from. And once again, there are other self-defense laws in place in Florida. Plenty of people have been spared jail time in Florida and around the entire country because of other laws put in place. Self-defense isn't some novel fucking concept in the judicial system of the United States of America.

[Nepenthe]

In the cases where this does happen, yes, the onus would be on the person who took another human being's life to prove they did it in self-defense if the facts of the case are not clear enough to come to that conclusion. That's what should happen, because killing people is a serious offense to at least warrant an immediate arrest.

Although, I still don't understand why you're implying people have not gotten off immediately in self-defense cases before SYG existed.

[Nepenthe]

You still seem to think SYG allows something prior self-defense laws did not. Plenty of home and business owners have gotten off scot-free for decades from the legal ramifications of assault or homicide- including arrest- because the evidence was clear that they were acting to protect themselves and their interests. I will continue to repeat this until this is fully understood: SYG allowing people to walk free from harming individuals is not some novel concept in the United States of America.

But in cases where there is a dead body and no clear-cut account as to what happened, the defendant's need for peace should not take precedence over the law of the land. Cases need to be properly contested if the evidence at the original crime scene does not warrant an immediate release. Potential criminal cases should not be swept under the rug because Mr. Johnson is tired of having to deal with the law a few weeks after the fact of killing someone because the law couldn't determine the facts fast enough for his liking.

[Mono]

Will you please stop losing your shit? Without SYG, one would have to rot in jail before a needlessly complicated trial determines their self-defense.

He's not losing his shit, he has been a very polite debater.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Jay Rockman