The Trayvon Martin Case

[Nepenthe]

Because the only reason law enforcement decided to take a second look is because the public and the media got pissed. Had this not blown up, Zimmerman would arguably still be free under the same self-defense clause that SYG advocates; that's what the police let him go for. This is a fucking problem of which part of the blame rests upon how easily the SYG law can and has been abused.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

As the theoretical opposite extreme keeps coming up, I should point out that it actually is this way in the UK:

this is a thorough explanation of our self-defence laws and whilst I was not able to find other examples at the moment there have been cases where individuals have been arrested when defending their properties because they were considered to be using excessive force in doing so, one of which is mentioned in the example I give.

From what you're saying in this thread and from what I'm understanding here, the real issue is not the idea behind the Stand Your Ground law, but the fact that it is badly worded and overbroad in the exceptions it makes.

Am I correct?

You'll note that our self-defence law has always been controversial. There's a frequent saying that in the UK the criminals have more rights than law-abiding citizens, though I'm not sure I agree with that as it's a really simplistic way of looking at the situation.

I'm not sure if that law has since been revised but it was definitely this way for a long time, so the evidence of what happens when you have such an arrangement is still valid.

[Nepenthe]

Yes, that's my particular issue with SYG. I have absolutely no problems with the idea of self-defense and find the concept invaluable to society. But this particular law appears too broad, especially the bit where you don't even have to make an effort to run away or otherwise express disinterest in a confrontation before using deadly force. That seems to be the chink in the armor of this thing; on the surface, it allows a guy to realistically enter into a fight and kill someone who may not have been a threat, and the only thing the police have to go on is his belief that "his life was in danger." This isn't some mere hypothetical either as we saw plain as day with Zimmerman being initially released on the same exact reasoning.

Overall, I think the law should be reconsidered and revised, if not replaced with something better if there isn't anything better out there already. I think that's the least that could be asked for in this tragedy without a bunch of "they tryna take mah guns" or "you don't believe in protection and freedom" nonsense further poisoning the debacle.

[Nepenthe]

No.

This is nothing like the ultrasound bill.

Absolutely nothing like it.

Don't even bring that mess into this.

(PS: The main state is Virginia, but I believe other states have it as well.)

Anyway, you're assuming that an attempt to diffuse a situation is a must in every single instance of a violent crime or otherwise you're at fault. This is not how interpreting a case works. Remember: context. Home invasions are different- no politician expects someone to not defend their property if they can- but how any particular home invasion plays out can shift the blame between parties; for example, the supposed victim can turn into an aggressor liable for punishment if the initial perpetrator tries to escape off the property or is already subdued but they're killed anyway. People have gone to jail doing this as rightfully they should.

But in general, if you are not making an effort to diffuse an appropriate situation such as being followed or even a face-to-face confrontation, you naturally chip away at your claim of self-defense, because then the obvious questions are, "Why did you stay and fight? Why didn't you try to do anything to not escalate the situation? Did you want to fight?" If someone comes up to you in an argumentative manner and your natural inclination is to shoot him dead no questions asked, then yeah, it's going to be very difficult for you to completely rely on self-defense when they arrest you.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Nepenthe

[no one]

Society's outta whack.

[Emmett L. Brown]

There you go. If anything, this case SUPPORTS Stand Your Ground because Trayvon would have been protected by it had he managed to kill Zimmerman.

Then I would have been rantingly angrily at Trayvon and calling him a murderer instead of Zimmerman. It's still a fucked-up situation.

[Johnny Boy]

George Zimmerman just got $150,000 bond. What. The. Fuck?!!!

[Autosaver]

ZIMMERMAN INJURIES FINALLY REVEALED

Just when you thought the case was closed.

[Nepenthe]

We've been known he had head injuries. The kicker to me is that they don't match up to what he claimed; that being his head was repeatedly slammed into concrete. His head would've been a lot worse off if said injury was "life threatening." Also, where's his broken nose? We've yet to see evidence of that.

Also, why is this photo coming out now, and who took it?

And finally, him being released on bond is bullshit. So was his testimonial and his apology; "I didn't know whether he was armed or not." Then why did you shoot him?

I don't condone vigilante violence, but if anything happens to this guy while he's out- Heaven forbid if he was actually acquitted- I won't shed a single tear. Fuck this man; he's a piece of shit.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Emmett L. Brown]

George Zimmerman just got $150,000 bond. What. The. Fuck?!!!

[Nepenthe]

He didn't really run away. Before that point he was a free man and allowed to do whatever he wanted; there was nothing to run from in the first place. Also, his short disappearance was due to the fact that he stopped communicating with his lawyers, the only people publicly speaking on his behalf who knew where he was, but law enforcement had their eye on him the whole time.

[Old dead account]

Eyup. He's out and on the run.

http://news.yahoo.com/now-jail-george-zimmerman-fades-sight-205318737.html

[Emmett L. Brown]

Eyup. He's out and on the run.

http://news.yahoo.co...-205318737.html

That article raises an interesting point (apart from the idiocy of letting him have bail). Even if Zimmerman is cleared of all charges, he will never experience the freedom and peace of mind he had before he became a murderer. He'll have to spend the rest of his life hiding from angry people who mean him harm.

[Nepenthe]

I may not be understanding this point in the article, but I'm not sure how the commissioners can blame the case's handling by the Sanford police prior on "outside groups," as if their complete ineptitude that night somehow became the result of outrage that would happen in the coming month. Had they merely done their jobs properly in the first place and arrested the guy, then these outside groups wouldn't have cared as much.

As for Zimmerman, them's the brakes when you're publicly known for killing a kid and can't get your story straight on what happened. In either case, cry me a river.

[Mono]

To make it clear: He is in a hidden location, under house arrest. Everyone can relax.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Mono

[Linkabel]

So instead of making a thread about it I'll post here, George Zimmerman walked out of jail on a million dollar bond today. For those who were following the case will know that he lied to the court about how much money he raised from supporters:

Seminole County Circuit Judge Kenneth R. Lester ordered Zimmerman to remain in Seminole County, doing away with the special perk that had allowed Zimmerman to await trial in hiding out of state before his initial bail was revoked. Lester said nothing in the defense team’s presentation in a three-hour hearing last week explained why someone would stash a second passport and $135,000 if it wasn’t to jump bail.

“Notably, together with the passport, the money only had to be hidden for a short time for him to leave the country if the defendant made a quick decision to flee,” Lester wrote. “It is entirely reasonable for this court to find that, but for the requirement that he be placed on electronic monitoring, the defendant and his wife would have fled the United States with at least $130,000 of other people’s money.”

http://www.palmbeach...peoples-/nPnRf/

http://news.yahoo.co...topstories.html

To tell the truth I used to be divided on what happened that night but after this Zimmerman does not look good and I'm guessing this will come up in the trial later on. What do you guys think?

[-Robin-]

Yeah.

He later went back to that at the end of the interview: “I do wish there was something, anything I could have done that would have put me in the position where I didn’t have to take his life. And I do want to tell everyone…that I’m sorry that this happened.” But still, to quickly take this to religious circles is going to incense people from either side.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Qwilfish

[Komodin]

Criminy... I simply hate it when people use God to try to justify their heinous actions. It's, like, a direct violation of the Second Commandment, for goodness sake!

[Nepenthe]

He has no regret for following an unarmed child, instigating a confrontation and killing him because it was all part of God's plan?

Jesus Christ, this man.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Yeah, all the more reason I stay away from Christians like that. Too many vocal hypocrites who give it a bad name and use it as an excuse to do shit that they should know better, not that the religion is bad itself tho.

Edited July 20, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[...]

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Criminy... I simply hate it when people use God to try to justify their heinous actions. It's, like, a direct violation of the Second Commandment, for goodness sake!

Exactly! It also makes Christians in general look bad. :I

[Emmett L. Brown]

The Christian god can be a dick sometimes, but unless Trayvon Martin turned into a pillar of salt, I'm gonna say this murder is all on you, Zimmerman.

[KHCast]

Oh wow. Seriously did he think that excuse would make things better? Cause I'm pretty sure to everyone else it made him sound crazy or like he was hiding his guilt. Yeah this kid was a demon spawn from hell that was going to make 2012 come true, and god told you to kill him. Yeah, no. It's times like this were i'm embarrassed to be religious. Because of people like him.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Call me sick and twisted, but really that excuse he made just pisses me off and I honestly hope someone kills this guy.

Yeah, I know how some of you dislike vigilante murder like that (and the fact that it'll likely cause other problems), but really something about killing an armed minor just puts a haze into my mind that we'd be better off with less people like him in the world.

And I'm no Christian, so the second commandment can really kiss my ass because I'd be pretty content with someone murdering Zimmerman out of retaliation. Just...ugh.

[KHCast]

Yeah, Karma better kick itself into high gear right now. Seriously I don't want someone to kill him bcause of this, but if he died from a car crash,killing himself, or someone killed him for some other reason, I don't think anyone would miss him, and he kinda deserves it.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Sora