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'06 Blaze and Sonic Rush Blaze


Frozen Nitrogen
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I got called out in the Blaze: A response to Shadow? thread to explain my nonsensical Blaze continuity logic... but rather than derailing that fine topic into "another '06 plothole thread" - let's have an '06 plothole thread about it instead! Because you hate yourself enough to rake through all that mess again. ;)

And would you mind explaing HOW you came to that conclusion?

Ha-hem. '06 might "take place" either before or after the events of Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventure. I say "take place" in quotes because it doesn't actually occur, given that it writes itself out of time at the end. But either way, in its own internal story while you're playing '06, either Sonic and Blaze have met before (in Rush & SRA), or they have not. Which one is it?

Evidence '06 comes BEFORE the Rush series

  1. At no point do Sonic and Blaze recognize each other. It must be said that they don't encounter each other MUCH through '06, but instances are still there. Sonic sees Blaze when he, Tails, and Knux spy on her, Silver, and Mephiles just before Mephs teleports the latter three to the past. He makes no comment of "LOLWUT, Blaze?". Likewise, after the Egg Carrier blows up and Elise dies, Blaze is there when Silver sends Sonic back in time to save her. Again, no words of recognition are exchanged.
  2. Blaze gets thrown into another dimension (presumably) at the end of '06, which could tie in with the fact that she indeed IS from another dimension in the Rush series.
  3. Blaze tries to kill Sonic throughout, at Mephiles' behest, which she wouldn't do if she knew he was a heroic good guy?

Evidence '06 comes AFTER the Rush series

  1. Although (as mentioned above) they don't recognise each other (or at least don't announce it), Blaze does have an awfully pensive muse about the fact that the Iblis Trigger is a "blue hedgehog" when she finds herself stuck on the top of a seamount - which she'd have no reason to do if she didn't have some kind of memory of Sonic already.
  2. In Rush, Blaze and Sonic are clearly meeting for the first time either of them remembers. Sonic would definitely have amnesia regarding all the events of '06 - but Blaze wouldn't, necessarily. Her conspicuous absence from the End Of The World certainly suggests that Solaris' screwing around with time isn't affecting her in the same way it does everyone else; and thus if she's escaped the End Of The World, she... might... also escape amnesia?
  3. Again in the Rush series, Blaze is a famous Princess and Guardian of the Sol Emeralds, with a loyal cadre of koalas following her around. Not the kind of occupation you'd expect of someone if they'd come to the world by falling out of a space-time rift carrying a malevolant fire god inside them.

Neither of these is particularly conclusive, I admit; but based on the above I come down on the "Rush, SRA, then '06" side of things. You can (tenuously) explain away Sonic and Blaze's apparent lack of recognition in '06 by emphasising the APPARENT part; they did recognise each other, but had rather more important things than reunion hugs to consider at the time - like saving the world. And let's not forget that Blaze had been trying to kill Sonic this entire time; if she did remember his heroics, but considered the future SO bleak that she was willing to trust Mephiles' words for the slim chance of saving it, then she'd probably be pretty shamefaced after it turns out it was all a scam - and thus disinclined to converse with Bluey.

Anyone think up any other evidence for / against?

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Das Problem ist doch nicht solvierenablen. Und was ist mit Deutsch sprachen? :P

It's truly hard to say anything when the makers of this game seemingly decided to ignore previous storylines, unless somebody decides to have mercy and make up some excuse for an answer in the future. Another explaination could be that the entire game happened in a different dimension with a different Sonic and co., and that would also explain OOC behaviour of the cast. ^_^ (how convenient)

But it's futile to try placing in time an event that hardly links to rest of the storyline. Just a guessing game.

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Although (as mentioned above) they don't recognise each other (or at least don't announce it), Blaze does have an awfully pensive muse about the fact that the Iblis Trigger is a "blue hedgehog" when she finds herself stuck on the top of a seamount - which she'd have no reason to do if she didn't have some kind of memory of Sonic already.
Supposedly this is some sort of untranslatable pun; the word used can mean either blue or naive. When Silver used it he meant blue, as he saw Sonic, but Blaze interpreted it as naive, which is what she's always calling Silver. It's actually kind of clever.

Also the thing about the "amnesia" is that it isn't amnesia. Time travel doesn't make you lose memories; if the events never happened, the characters never formed the memories in the first place. After the flame is blown out, Iblis is never released, the future isn't ruined, Silver and Blaze (if they even exist) never go back in time, and Blaze never seals herself in another dimension.

My opinion of the whole mess is that they've created a clusterfuck from which there is no escape, and in an attempt to avoid the issue they've split the series in two; in one half '06 happens but the Rushes don't, and in the other the Rushes happen but '06 doesn't. And they're going to avoid it like the plague, relegating Silver, Blaze, and Nega to side games, spinoffs, and multiplayer.

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[*]Although (as mentioned above) they don't recognise each other (or at least don't announce it), Blaze does have an awfully pensive muse about the fact that the Iblis Trigger is a "blue hedgehog" when she finds herself stuck on the top of a seamount - which she'd have no reason to do if she didn't have some kind of memory of Sonic already.

That could've been just a half-assed reference to Rush.

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My opinion of the whole mess is that they've created a clusterfuck from which there is no escape, and in an attempt to avoid the issue they've split the series in two; in one half '06 happens but the Rushes don't, and in the other the Rushes happen but '06 doesn't. And they're going to avoid it like the plague, relegating Silver, Blaze, and Nega to side games, spinoffs, and multiplayer.

This. It's kind of sad though, because Blaze appealead to many (I'm not a fan though).

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I think at this point, I'd accept almost any attempt to make Blaze's backstory a coherent hole, even if it weren't entirely consistent with what came before. At least some retconning would be necessary at this point.

I'm glad that at least Blaze's personality seems consistent...the only real variant seems to be the degree of how angry/upset about things she gets from game to game.

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I will say the same thing here as I said here

I was thinking, what if Sonic 06 came before Rush. You could make some sense out of it, for eg.

At the end of 06, Blaze sends herself into another dimension, now after that, all the story and things that happened in Sonic 06 never happened, so, I belive that Blaze was stuck in another dimension having lost all her memory of getting there. Now in Sonic Rush, Sonic and Blazes dimension start to merge, is this the timelines still trying to get back to normal by bringing Blaze back into her original dimension.

It could work.

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Also the thing about the "amnesia" is that it isn't amnesia. Time travel doesn't make you lose memories; if the events never happened, the characters never formed the memories in the first place. After the flame is blown out, Iblis is never released, the future isn't ruined, Silver and Blaze (if they even exist) never go back in time, and Blaze never seals herself in another dimension.
She's whisked to another reality with a fiery deity tied around her soul, far different from time travel.

Plus, the extinguishing of the eternal flame does not affect Blaze after she's placed in the other "dimension." If it's truly another dimension, then it exists on a separate timeline, different from the one that was erased. Therefore, all traces of her past in Sonic's world were destroyed, but that doesn't mean she can't exist in the new one.

Edited by A Ham Sandwich
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Das Problem ist doch nicht solvierenablen. Und was ist mit Deutsch sprachen? :P

Überflüssiges Deutsch zu benutzen, ist seine eigene Belohnung!

That could've been just a half-assed reference to Rush.

...and thus if Rush can be referenced, it means Rush happened before '06 in the canon. Yes?

Also the thing about the "amnesia" is that it isn't amnesia. Time travel doesn't make you lose memories; if the events never happened, the characters never formed the memories in the first place. After the flame is blown out, Iblis is never released, the future isn't ruined, Silver and Blaze (if they even exist) never go back in time, and Blaze never seals herself in another dimension.

I know, I know. But "amnesia" is easier to type than "events retroactively negated by the extinction of a closed timelike loop". ;)

I've heard a theory that Blaze's flame powers actually come from Ilbis, but for that idea to work, you'd have to strike down anytime she used flames in 06 as non-canon.

And that BEFORE she absorbs Iblis she makes a big deal out of "My soul is already alit with flames; I will be accepted."

So... yeah. That's not entirely a sensible theory. :huh:

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I remember a member here once posted her full Sonic 06 website bio which was..hidden or something? Anyway, it just mentions her as the usual pyrokinetic kitty from the alternate dimension! That's it. No explanation why she's even hanging out with Silver nor what she's doing in the future.

So they messed it up from the very beginning!

Trust me, the only reason they added Blaze to Sonic 06 was because of the huge fanbase she has. That's all.

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I recall a rumor that Sonic 06's storyline was originally supposed to be for another game that got canned so they decided to make it fit this game instead. Not a farfetched idea, seeing how farfetched the game is itself, but I'd be interested in hearing if that's true.

Edited by A Ham Sandwich
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Waahh..I've never heard of that there rumour before. It does plausible, I guess. O.o

And I also heard about a rumour with Blaze being princess of Soleanna originally, not Elise. I can see similiarities to the whole concept, what with Flames of Disaster, SOLeanna, the whole fire thing going on..

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My simple view on this matter:

Sonic 06 happened first. Then it didn't happened because of the time-re-set, so it doesn't count. Let's just forget about it.

Then came the Rivals and Rush games. I don't know exactly what game took place after what, but let's not care about that now. The important thing is this: the "other dimension" and "the future" is the same place. The place that Silver and Blaze lives in is Sonic's worlds future, which is in another dimension. I dont see why this idea seems to be so hard to grasp for some people. Im no astronomer, but im pretty sure that most scientists who supports the idea that time travel is possible will tell you that the way to accomplish that is to travel through a worm hole to what is known as another dimension, a place where time is currently at a different, well, time than it is in our dimension.

So yeah, blaze and Silver live in the same world (whether they know eachother is up for debate, but nothing point to it) and Eggman Nega is Eggman's descendant. And we ignore all the massive piles of evidence that points to other solutions. :P

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I'm just going to present an out-there theory that doesn't require any explaining of the laws of time and space. It's mainly focused on Silver. Here's my theory -

06 and the Rivals games technically never happened.

Emphasis on the "technically" part, however. The events of these three games were a VR simulation that Silver was strapped into for some unknown purpose, possibly to train his powers. The inconsistencies could simply be just the simulation disregarding known information in order to provide a proper simulation, regardless of how nonsensical it was.

Of course, it's just an out-there theory that I came up with, but it actually makes sense.

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I imagine it as two time lines where Blaze/Silver/Nega are in the future for both. In 06 Blaze/Silver travelled back through the same time line, whereas in Rush Blaze travelled to the past on an alternate time line. As such an Alternate time line can be classed as a parallel dimension. Thus meeting the criteria for both explanations.

Now before you ask, why did Nega/Blaze travel to the past of an alternate time line? Perhaps it's because both time lines are doomed to meet a disaster at their point in time. We've had both Solaris and Ifrit to imply that in the 06 timeline a fire based disaster is due to occur. And I don't know about you but I get a Wind Waker style mass flood so everything is island vibe with Rush Adventure.

But to answer the original question the Present of 06 must happen before Rush. In both cases Sonic and Blaze don't recognise each other, but 06 erases itself Rush doesn't.

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I got called out in the Blaze: A response to Shadow? thread to explain my nonsensical Blaze continuity logic... but rather than derailing that fine topic into "another '06 plothole thread" - let's have an '06 plothole thread about it instead! Because you hate yourself enough to rake through all that mess again. ;)

Ha-hem. '06 might "take place" either before or after the events of Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventure. I say "take place" in quotes because it doesn't actually occur, given that it writes itself out of time at the end. But either way, in its own internal story while you're playing '06, either Sonic and Blaze have met before (in Rush & SRA), or they have not. Which one is it?

Evidence '06 comes BEFORE the Rush series

  1. At no point do Sonic and Blaze recognize each other. It must be said that they don't encounter each other MUCH through '06, but instances are still there. Sonic sees Blaze when he, Tails, and Knux spy on her, Silver, and Mephiles just before Mephs teleports the latter three to the past. He makes no comment of "LOLWUT, Blaze?". Likewise, after the Egg Carrier blows up and Elise dies, Blaze is there when Silver sends Sonic back in time to save her. Again, no words of recognition are exchanged.
  2. Blaze gets thrown into another dimension (presumably) at the end of '06, which could tie in with the fact that she indeed IS from another dimension in the Rush series.
  3. Blaze tries to kill Sonic throughout, at Mephiles' behest, which she wouldn't do if she knew he was a heroic good guy?

Evidence '06 comes AFTER the Rush series

  1. Although (as mentioned above) they don't recognise each other (or at least don't announce it), Blaze does have an awfully pensive muse about the fact that the Iblis Trigger is a "blue hedgehog" when she finds herself stuck on the top of a seamount - which she'd have no reason to do if she didn't have some kind of memory of Sonic already.
  2. In Rush, Blaze and Sonic are clearly meeting for the first time either of them remembers. Sonic would definitely have amnesia regarding all the events of '06 - but Blaze wouldn't, necessarily. Her conspicuous absence from the End Of The World certainly suggests that Solaris' screwing around with time isn't affecting her in the same way it does everyone else; and thus if she's escaped the End Of The World, she... might... also escape amnesia?
  3. Again in the Rush series, Blaze is a famous Princess and Guardian of the Sol Emeralds, with a loyal cadre of koalas following her around. Not the kind of occupation you'd expect of someone if they'd come to the world by falling out of a space-time rift carrying a malevolant fire god inside them.

Neither of these is particularly conclusive, I admit; but based on the above I come down on the "Rush, SRA, then '06" side of things. You can (tenuously) explain away Sonic and Blaze's apparent lack of recognition in '06 by emphasising the APPARENT part; they did recognise each other, but had rather more important things than reunion hugs to consider at the time - like saving the world. And let's not forget that Blaze had been trying to kill Sonic this entire time; if she did remember his heroics, but considered the future SO bleak that she was willing to trust Mephiles' words for the slim chance of saving it, then she'd probably be pretty shamefaced after it turns out it was all a scam - and thus disinclined to converse with Bluey.

Anyone think up any other evidence for / against?

Yeah, I have some evidence for this: the Rush series is set before SA1.

Tornado 1 in opening cutscene of SRA. Yep, that's it...

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It doesn't matter if Sonic 06 happens before or after.

The amnesia part can be explained quite easily and belivingly, its actually a point for.

Sonic doesn't recognize her in Sonic 06, when he has already met her in Rush (if 06 was after Rush). If SRA was after 06, then it could work, but that doesn't explain the princess part, that makes no sense. It could be explained as well, for example, by her saving the kingdom and therefore made princess. Quite frankly, it's lame and it's retarded.

And if 06 never happened, then her going to another dimension didn't happen either. You can't have it both ways. That's time paradox.

My theory is that Rush and Rivals are all spin-offs to each other, and just an excuse to pit these characters together. The Blaze of 06 is alive in the future with Silver and well (contrarily to dead, which is what she was before time was reset, otherwise why send her in another dimension to begin with?).

My simple view on this matter:

Sonic 06 happened first. Then it didn't happened because of the time-re-set, so it doesn't count. Let's just forget about it.

Then came the Rivals and Rush games. I don't know exactly what game took place after what, but let's not care about that now. The important thing is this: the "other dimension" and "the future" is the same place. The place that Silver and Blaze lives in is Sonic's worlds future, which is in another dimension. I dont see why this idea seems to be so hard to grasp for some people. Im no astronomer, but im pretty sure that most scientists who supports the idea that time travel is possible will tell you that the way to accomplish that is to travel through a worm hole to what is known as another dimension, a place where time is currently at a different], well, time than it is in our dimension.

So yeah, blaze and Silver live in the same world (whether they know eachother is up for debate, but nothing point to it) and Eggman Nega is Eggman's descendant. And we ignore all the massive piles of evidence that points to other solutions. :P

The first bold could work, but not the second. Wormholes can theoretically exist to shortcut time, but never to the past from where they began. Then again, it's fiction, isn't it? There's chaos control, and that defies the wormhole theory so... Still, don't bring physics because it's impossible for that to happen.

Edited by redmenace
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Yeah, I have some evidence for this: the Rush series is set before SA1.

Tornado 1 in opening cutscene of SRA. Yep, that's it...

I don't think the red Tornado in SRA was the same as the Tornado 1 in SA.

If I recall correctly, the Tornado in SRA got destroyed at the beginning and was never seen again in the game. Besides, it had two seats, while the Tornado 1 had only one.

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I will say the same thing here as I said here

The only problem with that is the fact that Blaze is the Princess of the world in that dimension. Nega said that her family has protected the Jeweled Septer for how long? She is also supposed to have her fire powers because she is the Princess and appointed gaurdian of the Sol Emeralds. Not to mention the fact that Nega is from Blaze's dimension... but also from the future...? I'm confused! :huh::lol:

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I thought of a simple explanation which there is no evidence for:

Maybe the two worlds merged together at some unspecified point in the future, after Sonic's time but before Silver's. Then possibly the '06 Blaze is a descendant of the original Blaze, or even a reincarnation. (Or both.)

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...and thus if Rush can be referenced, it means Rush happened before '06 in the canon. Yes?

By reference, I mean weak shout out to her debut game.

I don't think the red Tornado in SRA was the same as the Tornado 1 in SA.

If I recall correctly, the Tornado in SRA got destroyed at the beginning and was never seen again in the game. Besides, it had two seats, while the Tornado 1 had only one.

You know, it is possible that Tails repairs the Tornado 1 each time it's destroyed.

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I thought of a simple explanation which there is no evidence for:

Maybe the two worlds merged together at some unspecified point in the future, after Sonic's time but before Silver's. Then possibly the '06 Blaze is a descendant of the original Blaze, or even a reincarnation. (Or both.)

A ) The merging of the worlds would destroy both universes, and preventing it is the entire plot of Sonic Rush;

B ) How is invoking new characters that happen to look / act exactly like other ones 'simple'? Occam's Razor's gonna cut you good. Also, were this the case Sonic would still have recognised her if '06 happens after Rush.

Augh, my head.

ADDENDUM:

By reference, I mean weak shout out to her debut game.

...and if Sonic Rush can be shouted out to, that means it occured before '06?

Or are you making the curious assertion that something which happened in a Sonic game should not be counted as canonical to the Sonic games?

Edited by Frozen Nitrogen
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ADDENDUM:

...and if Sonic Rush can be shouted out to, that means it occured before '06?

Or are you making the curious assertion that something which happened in a Sonic game should not be counted as canonical to the Sonic games?

No, it means that Blaze was in Rush, in case some people playing the didn't know that or forgot or something. That's all.

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No, it means that Blaze was in Rush, in case some people playing the didn't know that or forgot or something. That's all.

...but if '06 was set before Rush, then she hadn't been in Rush yet. :huh:

Which means it only makes sense if '06 was set after Rush.

QED! :lol:

Edited by Frozen Nitrogen
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