How can Sonic sell better?

[Scar]

I don't care about the production. The song itself is far more catchy and memorable than the others.

[Nepenthe]

You'll get your Tails and everyone else whenever Sega/Sonic Team decides it's the right time (read: profitable) to put them in. Until then, everyone's free to argue what they think is the best way to go about things related to it.

[Cyrus]

Wait, Gens tanked at the market? What the...

Anywho, I think SEGA should stop having risky deadlines so they can have a bit more time on their games, so they have more time and effort to put into the games, and when people buy it, they like it, thus keeping them hungry for more. CHA CHINNNNG!

[Scar]

Wait, Gens tanked at the market? What the...

[Cyrus]

Now this is a pretty radical suggestion, and it's way outside their usual MO, but I'm going to throw it out there anyway: Maybe they should try making good games?

But seriously, like Patticus said, Sonic has lost a lot of the good karma he had built up, and it's going to take a lot of time and effort to repair that. At the most basic level they need to make consistently good games (better than what they're making now), and give it time to rebuild their reputation. I think they could also benefit from rethinking the characters and storytelling (again); they've shied away from anything too serious after '06/Unleashed, and that was a good move, but they've settled into something bland and lifeless. I think they'd really benefit if they could do something bold that still fits the context of the series.

[Stritix]

That may be true, but I can't honestly believe that you haven't found at least one of the recent tracks memorable or catchy. It is in fact quite illogical.

Planet Wisp has one chord sequence that is repeated a fair few times in a single loop. That sequence is pretty memorable if you ask me. Terminal Velocity is also memorable, its intro is extremely memorable and catchy. Tropical Resort too. I'll grant you Starlight Carnival, because it is a bit boring. The rest are pretty damn memorable to me. In fact I find it hard to forget them.

Sonic 06 may have had a very complex and not very "catchy" (they are to me), but even that game produced at least one song (Crisis City) which was memorable and catchy.

Are you seriously telling me you found none of the few examples here, catchy or memorable? Seriously? Not one?

[Scar]

I'll take it you've never played Colors?

Edited May 12, 2012 by Scar

[Cyrus]

If you consider 1.5 Million + sales to be a commercial flop, then yes.

Can't expect to sell as big as CoD now can we.

[Stritix]

I'll take it you've never played Colors?

[Nepenthe]

Aside from maybe Hover and the Bee Suit, is there a single Wisp that is analogous to a power-up in either Galaxy games, or does Mario now have exclusive rights to power-ups in a platformer?

[Komodin]

A dumbed down version of Unleashed with Mario Galaxy gimmicks is far from special.

[Stritix]

Aside from maybe Hover and the Bee Suit, is there a single Wisp that is analogous to a power-up in either Galaxy games, or does Mario now have exclusive rights to power-ups in a platformer?

[lounge]

In order for sonic to sell better they need to make the image of the game and atmosphere ultra cool and slick looking. Bring in dance and DJ music for a new, hip sound. Bring back the soap shoes, and title the game Sonic Adventure Reborn. Or SA3. The name itself will attract attention. Make an online multiplayer like Mario Kart Wii so people will actually want to buy the game and keep it. And of course spend millions on marketing to get it into peoples heads. I remember when Heroes came out I would see commercials for it all the time.

[Nepenthe]

I'm talking about the overall game, not the tiny details.

[Diogenes]

Profit isn't the issue because Sonic games are profitable with or without extra characters. Instead, Sega makes sweeping decisions about the Sonic franchise depending upon the complaints from the Sonic community and gamers at large

[Stritix]

What in the games overall is directly analogous to one another? Colors doesn't even utilize planets in the same way the Galaxy series does; your best bet of a direct comparison are the gravity sections in Asteroid Coaster, something that was done in the franchise eight years before in SA2's Crazy Gadget anyway. Can you please be specific about these glaring similarities because I just don't see them.

It was practically trying to be the next Mario Galaxy. If you can't see that then I have nothing else to say. Once again, I said the overall game, not the little details.

[Scar]

In order for sonic to sell better they need to make the image of the game and atmosphere ultra cool and slick looking. Bring in dance and DJ music for a new, hip sound. Bring back the soap shoes, and title the game Sonic Adventure Reborn. Or SA3. The name itself will attract attention. Make an online multiplayer like Mario Kart Wii so people will actually want to buy the game and keep it. And of course spend millions on marketing to get it into peoples heads. I remember when Heroes came out I would see commercials for it all the time.

I'd rather Sonic Team not sell out and use a famous name like Sonic 4 to grab attention.

If they want to make a Sonic game sell big, it would be best to do so based on the merits of the game itself, not its title.

[Old dead account]

I'm talking about the overall game, not the tiny details.

The wisp gimmick that defined the game isn't a tiny detail. Aside from the fact that they were both in space Colors and Galaxy don't have many similarities at all. In fact, Mad Space from SA2 with its gravity gimmick is much more similar to Mario Galaxy than Colors is.

[sonfan1984]

It was practically trying to be the next Mario Galaxy. If you can't see that then I have nothing else to say. Once again, I said the overall game, not the little details.

The only thing I see is that both games take place in space. Other then that, nope. Don't see it at all. The gameplay isn't the same, story isn't the same and it's much shorter.

btw, I don't want to call anyone out, but it kinda bugs me that there's always a few people who seem to agree with you and you get a like each time you simply mention that Colors is a 'dumb down version of Unleashed that's trying to be the next Mario Galaxy'. Yet nobody jumps in and speak up for you when you're doing a poor job at explaining what you're talking about.

Edited May 13, 2012 by sonfan1984

[T-Min]

A dumbed down version of Unleashed with Mario Galaxy gimmicks is far from special.

A fast-paced, complex platformer with lots of exploration and platforming and a fun and unique gimmick is pretty special. I don't know what you're talking about.

What I'm saying is that it's reasonable to say that the gameplay still needs to be improved before we focus on inserting other characters

One thing I'd like to ask: what would need to be improved on in the current gameplay style before you could start implementing new characters? I understand that you don't like the modern gameplay in concept, but what, looking at things objectively, is really stopping them at this point from inserting alternate playable characters with their own movesets into the current gameplay style?

[Cyrus]

He has, and he thinks its an average title at best.

My thoughts are that its good, but not good enough to carry the franchise.

I think it was. Great gameplay, great story that short and simple, just like the "old days", and it doesn't take tself too seriously, unlike Sonic 2006, and we all know how THAT went.

[lounge]

I'd rather Sonic Team not sell out and use a famous name like Sonic 4 to grab attention.

If they want to make a Sonic game sell big, it would be best to do so based on the merits of the game itself, not its title.

Can't it be both? If the game is good but it isn't selling big, mayber calling it SA3 or whatever isn't such a bad idea. Not that I'd want them to use that name if they didn't make a good game.

[Diogenes]

One thing I'd like to ask: what would need to be improved on in the current gameplay style before you could start implementing new characters? I understand that you don't like the modern gameplay in concept, but what, looking at things objectively, is really stopping them at this point from inserting alternate playable characters with their own movesets into the current gameplay style?

I already said that if someone is okay with the current gameplay, I can't see any reason to object to adding more characters to it. By "improved", I primarily mean "rethought entirely". Edited May 12, 2012 by Diogenes

[Nepenthe]

To maximize profit. They aren't doing this out of the goodness of their hearts.

No duh; I'm not saying Sega is a charity, rather the actions do not entirely follow. The most profitable 3D Sonic game- at least I'm assuming as such consider its sales- is Sonic Heroes, a game with 12 different characters to play as (or three depending upon your definitions); it sold around six million. Meanwhile, Sonic Generations- in all of its nostalgic, Sonic-only glory- has accrued only about a sixth of Heroes' sales. It doesn't make sense to then abandon other characters outright if these are the financial results. Therefore, it seems more logical to believe that the changes we've seen have been primarily as a result of fan outcry.

The people who say it needs to be "perfect", I reject their argument. I agree that there is never going to be a universally agreed upon "perfect Sonic gameplay", so holding off on fixing anything else until it happens is stupid. What I'm saying is that it's reasonable to say that the gameplay still needs to be improved before we focus on inserting other characters, especially if one believes that the gameplay needs a serious rethinking rather than just a refinement of the current style. And no, there's still never going to be a full consensus on when it's the right time, but that doesn't mean that it should be rejected entirely, just that Sonic Team is going to have to use their best judgment.

I'll say it again; if one thinks that the gameplay needs a major redesign (as I do), it is entirely reasonable to suggest that Sonic Team put all their resources towards creating that one gameplay, rather than trying to create it and several variations at the same time. So if they are going to make a new kind of Sonic gameplay, it is for the best that they focus on getting it right the first time, rather than splitting their resources between multiple characters and weakening all of them. And if that is true, then the optimal solution results in you being unhappy.

I reject your fundamental notion that allowing other characters to be playable will automatically result in a significantly weaker product. For one, game design and development is not such a rigid art that a title with multiple characters playable is inevitably weaker than one without because time and resources must be split; there is no perfect trade-off. For all intents and purposes, both Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Generations have two different characters to play as, yet you would be foolish to say that they are of the exact same quality as a result. Most people would consider Generations the better game; why? Because it is a more cohesive and polished experience than Unleashed is. Second, if we are to agree that this is fact, then surely we can agree that there are in turn multiple ways to include alternate characters ranging from mere reskins to having full-blown campaigns, each with its own advantages and disadvantages, and subsequently that there are plenty of ways for Sonic Team to include other characters without being forced to sacrifice quality.

Third, I don't believe a few hundred or so professionals are completely incapable of working on new technologies and designs to add to Sonic games in the future whilst games are in development; otherwise the Hedgehog Engine would've never been built in-house. If nothing else, a lot of these people's jobs are to multi-task.

As I've already concluded, there is still no logical reason for me to be unhappy while the Sonic-only proponents pop bottles.

It was practically trying to be the next Mario Galaxy. If you can't see that then I have nothing else to say. Once again, I said the overall game, not the little details.

Planets and power-ups are not "little details" in any of these games. All I am asking for at least some big, basic comparisons. If you're going to cop out on the "if you can't see it, you're a lost cause" excuse, please don't bother replying to this as I don't want to be compelled in wasting the time going back and forth.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Tornado]

Kinda irritating when people throw the "so you've never played Sonic Colors?" card at others as if Sonic Colors was such an incredible and fantastic game.

A lot more irritating when people throw out the "if you can't see it, you're hopeless" defense for their argument when they've been asked several times across several threads to back it up because they keep saying it as if that should be enough by itself, but never have actually bothered to explain it beyond "I've totally played it, guys, so I wouldn't be saying this if I hadn't."

Edited May 12, 2012 by Tornado