The WereHog Was a Great Idea

[Gamenerd]

The Werehog wasn't an abysmal idea, but there have been far better modes of alternate gameplay. In Sonic Adventure for example, Tails, Knuckles and e-102 all have alternative gameplay methods that elongate the overall experience but don't make it too slow (which is why people disliked Amy and Big). Imagine if Unleashed had a SA-style character system - Sonic would have all of his regular daytime stages, Tails would go through Sonic's stages, but due to his flight, and slight layout changes, he'd take a different route, and Knuckles would put you into specific areas of the levels (for example, you'd be able to fully explore one of those islands you see in Apotos Act 2 rather than just sprinting onwards) and give you freedom to explore.

They save development time by reusing environments - if you spend weeks creating an environment that totals up to 10 kilometers squared, you better squeeze alot of juice out of it - and they provide gameplay that is fun and not too slow, and also not mandatory to progress the main story.

[SuperStingray]

While certain people wouldn't be buying Sonic for GoW gameplay, Sonic has established a reputation of... "versatility" as well as speed to his newer audience. I mean, back in the day we wouldn't be playing Sonic for treasure hunting, swords or shooting, but at this point, speed is starting to play second banana to these other modes of gameplay. I'm not saying it's necessarily a good thing, but I feel that most of Sonic's remaining followers started out with the Adventure games (including myself) or later and these people most likely play Sonic titles with different interests than those who started out on the Genesis.

Edited May 24, 2009 by A Ham Sandwich

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I mean, back in the day we wouldn't be playing Sonic for treasure hunting, swords or shooting, but at this point, speed is starting to play second banana to these other modes of gameplay.

This, to me, is both a good and bad thing.

It's a good thing because Sonic isn't going to be a basic F-Zero on feet game series, its a bad thing because folks are willing to go cliff-diving with ideas without considering a parachute to slow them down and perfect some things.

I love a game with variety, but I think a game series is better made with an ongoing focus for a good length of time before adding things to it. Sonic hasn't be doing that, one moment he's fire, the next he's water, and later he turns into steel, metaphorically speaking. Each type of variety added is only thrown away with a new one to cover it, and I don't think that's doing very much good in this case.

[SuperStingray]

This, to me, is both a good and bad thing.

It's a good thing because Sonic isn't going to be a basic F-Zero on feet game series, its a bad thing because folks are willing to go cliff-diving with ideas without considering a parachute to slow them down and perfect some things.

I love a game with variety, but I think a game series is better made with an ongoing focus for a good length of time before adding things to it. Sonic hasn't be doing that, one moment he's fire, the next he's water, and later he turns into steel, metaphorically speaking. Each type of variety added is only thrown away with a new one to cover it, and I don't think that's doing very much good in this case.

Exactly how I feel. If they keep going on this path, the series isn't going to go in any direction but in circles. I mean, if you keep jumping all over the place without any sort of status quo, it's going to be hard to appeal to anyone. But if you keep going in a straight line with little deviation, many will tire of it. All Sonic needs is a happy medium.

[Blueblur1]

It was an okay idea. But the Werehog felt like he was running on ice, even when he wasn't.

What?

If you really want to know what it feels like to run on ice in a game then go play Fable II.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Blueblur1

[SuperStingray]

God of War has an easy mode, and it's pretty freaking easy. If you want to know what GoW is like, why exactly would you looks to a Sonic game for it?

If you ask me, the degree of "ripping something off" is only as far as it's intent. Let's not forget that Sonic is marketed to a <12 demographic and I doubt that many parents will find Kratos to be a viable substitute for Elmo or Spongebob. Now, I may not be under twelve physically, but I still play Unleashed because I prefer colorful, varied environments and settings and slapstick humor to the ol' gritty, gritty realism.

[DarkDefeater]

To add to Ham's point,

I find a cartoony werehog to be more appealing than playing as a guy with anger management issues whose answer to everything is to cut stuff up.

Yeah, I've probably started another debate.

[redmenace]

Why do people insist that the Werehog is a rip-off of God of War? Ristar was stretching arms, balancing on poles (which are very reminiscing), using that for balancing and hitting enemies in the same style before GOW ever crossed the developers minds. It's an old SEGA franchise as well, it makes all sense that they paid tribute to that, especially because the series is trippy and colourful instead of brown/grey gritty and mature like GOW.

[Diogenes]

I think a lot of it is in the combat focus. The fighting in Ristar was pretty much just "grab-faceslam everything" where the werehog and GoW (from what I know of it) is more in-depth, combo-based, and uses QTEs.

[Phos]

If you ask me, the degree of "ripping something off" is only as far as it's intent. Let's not forget that Sonic is marketed to a <12 demographic and I doubt that many parents will find Kratos to be a viable substitute for Elmo or Spongebob. Now, I may not be under twelve physically, but I still play Unleashed because I prefer colorful, varied environments and settings and slapstick humor to the ol' gritty, gritty realism.

Then bring back Astal or something.

Why do people insist that the Werehog is a rip-off of God of War? Ristar was stretching arms, balancing on poles (which are very reminiscing), using that for balancing and hitting enemies in the same style before GOW ever crossed the developers minds. It's an old SEGA franchise as well, it makes all sense that they paid tribute to that, especially because the series is trippy and colourful instead of brown/grey gritty and mature like GOW.

If you've played GoW, it's astounding the degree to which the Werehog rips of GoW - it verges on plagiarism. The way the player character moves, the control scheme, even several of the Werehog's animations. The "YYYY" (that's ^^^^ for you PS3 players) gets you an almost indistinguishable animation from doing the same thing as Kratos. There are many others like it.

Edit: If you need more convincing,

Edited May 25, 2009 by Phos

[SuperStingray]

Then bring back Astal or something.

Why would they? Good game or not, I'm sure far more kids today know who Sonic is and would look for his face rather than a more culturally obscured one, especially considering it was never released in Europe.

If you've played GoW, it's astounding the degree to which the Werehog rips of GoW - it verges on plagiarism. The way the player character moves, the control scheme, even several of the Werehog's animations. The "YYYY" (that's ^^^^ for you PS3 players) gets you an almost indistinguishable animation from doing the same thing as Kratos. There are many others like it.

Edit: If you need more convincing,

I see where you're coming from, but I saw no platforming in there whatsoever and my original point still stands that God of War is not for kids like Sonic is.

[Phos]

Why would they? Good game or not, I'm sure far more kids today know who Sonic is and would look for his face rather than a more culturally obscured one, especially considering it was never released in Europe.

If every game had to have a recognizable protagonist, there would be no new games. Are kids really that averse to new things these days?

I see where you're coming from, but I saw no platforming in there whatsoever and my original point still stands that God of War is not for kids like Sonic is.

And that's kind of the point of the bit about Astal. A modern beat em up for kids would be the perfect way to bring back Astal.

[Blueblur1]

Personally, I don't ever want to see the Werehog character again. While the design wasn't an abomination, he was a simple character that didn't really add much. You could easily take Knuckles or Vector and attach the Werehog's game mechanics and no one would miss him.

If Sonic Team really want to integrate classic platforming into a new Sonic game they can do so without introducing unnecessary characters. Some of the DLC Sonic Unleashed levels themselves are a tiny example of what they can do. With that said, it would serve everyone better if they slowed down Sonic quite a bit and worked on making his controls more precise and friendly. While blasting through a daytime level in Unleashed with Sonic is fun, that specific iteration of the character doesn't lend itself too well to platforming.

[SuperStingray]

If every game had to have a recognizable protagonist, there would be no new games. Are kids really that averse to new things these days?

No, but when you compare Sonic to Astal, whose more well known and who would make the game sell more?

Withdrawn.

And that's kind of the point of the bit about Astal. A modern beat em up for kids would be the perfect way to bring back Astal.

But what I'm saying is what reason does Sega have right now to bring it back right now? It didn't sell well.

I'm not saying that the Werehog was a good decision, but you have to see this from the perspective of the company.

Edited May 25, 2009 by A Ham Sandwich

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Personally, I don't ever want to see the Werehog character again. While the design wasn't an abomination, he was a simple character that didn't really add much.

The Werehog Sonic and Regular Sonic were the same Sonic. Whatever depth regular Sonic had the werehog instantly adds the same. Only when you look at it gameplay wise does it show any differences, and neither one had much charm to them if you ask me.

You could easily take Knuckles or Vector and attach the Werehog's game mechanics and no one would miss him.

Not really. Knuckles and Vector aren't capable of stretching their arms several times the length of their body to fight or latch on to far away objects, and that alone makes a very big difference in how they would've played in Unleashed. There were so many ledges protruding out that were made for the Werehog to grab, and Knuckles isn't capable of climbing over things 90 degrees of the wall he's already clinged to.

If Sonic Team really want to integrate classic platforming into a new Sonic game they can do so without introducing unnecessary characters.

What makes a character unnecessary again? Was it their lack of a role in the plot, or that folks just don't like them? I think folks are mixing the two up.

Edited May 26, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Badnik Zero]

What's everyone's opinion on God of War anyways? I like DMC style beat-em-ups, because the moveset flows like a fighting game, but God of War seemed kind of rigid compared. I mean, I can give that game credit for a few innovations, but graphics weren't too impressive, and levels were straightforward and boring. Am I the only one who thinks GoW is wayyy overrated?

Edited May 26, 2009 by Badnikz

[SuperStingray]

What's everyone's opinion on God of War anyways? I like DMC style beat-em-ups, because the moveset flows like a fighting game, but God of War seemed kind of rigid compared. I mean, I can give that game credit for a few innovations, but graphics weren't too impressive, and levels were straightforward and boring. Am I the only one who thinks GoW is wayyy overrated?

Probably not; Kratos was on IGN's 10 most overated video game characters list. (Along with Sonic, but it's nice to see him able to be on the same list as currently more widely respected characters like Master Chief and Kratos.)

[Sean]

Watching these videos, I'm surprised at the level Unleashed really rips off God of War - they even took the double-jump and red orbs. Wow.

Also, I don't know which arguments make my face flush more: those against Werehog, or those defending it. I don't even know what to my life has no more meaning game over

[Blacklightning]

Watching these videos, I'm surprised at the level Unleashed really rips off God of War - they even took the double-jump and red orbs. Wow.

Double jumping and collectable objects, in a platformer of all things? God forbid.

[Sean]

Double jumping and collectable objects, in a platformer of all things? God forbid.

Ahahaha.

Even a side comment from me in an attempt to not join in on either side of the heated debate sparks a snark! Oh well.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Also, I don't know which arguments make my face flush more: those against Werehog, or those defending it.

Well, put it this way. GoW is for older gamers who love the gory stuff, while Sonic Unleashed is gear more towards younger fans to whom their parents would never even consider their child touching GoW.

That's not to say that the Werehog is a good or bad thing, it's in the tone of how it's place...if that makes any sense.

[Blueblur1]

The Werehog Sonic and Regular Sonic were the same Sonic. Whatever depth regular Sonic had the werehog instantly adds the same. Only when you look at it gameplay wise does it show any differences, and neither one had much charm to them if you ask me.

Not really. Knuckles and Vector aren't capable of stretching their arms several times the length of their body to fight or latch on to far away objects, and that alone makes a very big difference in how they would've played in Unleashed. There were so many ledges protruding out that were made for the Werehog to grab, and Knuckles isn't capable of climbing over things 90 degrees of the wall he's already clinged to.

What makes a character unnecessary again? Was it their lack of a role in the plot, or that folks just don't like them? I think folks are mixing the two up.

You're right that the Werehog is just another form of Sonic. Everyone is aware of that hopefully. The Werehog character was pretty uninteresting as his personality consisted of regular Sonic chatter along with a cheaply altered voice and grunts and groans. So exciting.

That's true about both characters. But then again anyone could easily write them into the story by coming up with some way to give them 'stretchy arm' abilities. I mean, we're talking about a video games series were characters go 'super' and a hedgehog becomes a werewolf equivalent. Its not all meant to be taken so seriously.

How about that [A] that character added very little to the game and was just an excuse for Sonic Team to shoehorn in another gameplay style (because apparently a Sonic game with just Sonic is not enough to stand up on its own) and I don't like the character (and many media outlets don't like the character either)? I mean, my previous post is my opinion on the matter. That's what a message board is for; to discuss and share our opinions.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The Werehog character was pretty uninteresting as his personality consisted of regular Sonic chatter along with a cheaply altered voice and grunts and groans. So exciting.

Eh, well what we see is what we get. *shot*

That's true about both characters. But then again anyone could easily write them into the story by coming up with some way to give them 'stretchy arm' abilities. I mean, we're talking about a video games series were characters go 'super' and a hedgehog becomes a werewolf equivalent. Its not all meant to be taken so seriously.

But with all that said on your part, they can do that with virtually ANY character.

However should Vector or Knuckles have similar abilities as Werehog, no doubt someones going to complain on that part, and thus we have the Unpleasable Fandom syndrome reeling it's ugly head for the billionth time.

How about that [A] that character added very little to the game

If anything added very little to the game, it would be Tails and Amy. Werehog actually adds more than you make it out. As far as appeal goes, you just find it something that's not your forte.

and was just an excuse for Sonic Team to shoehorn in another gameplay style (because apparently a Sonic game with just Sonic is not enough to stand up on its own)

With the way they did Sonic's daytime stages, they really aren't. They were F-Zero on feet. For the most part you basically had a instant "go fast" button that makes you nigh-invincible to most hazards (i.e. enemies) you run into, that you could hold and simply guide to the end of the game. I'm one who expects more than that.

But since this is where Sonic first stepped in the right direction for the series since Sonic 06 widespread failure, I'll be more forgiving of that.

and I don't like the character (and many media outlets don't like the character either)?

Okay? That means you don't like the character since it doesn't appeal to you, not that they don't add depth and are unnecessary when infact the game builds almost half of itself (PS360 version) around it.

Trust me, the werehog was not something I was too fond of at first, since it was implementing something I would've liked in the series the wrong way. And while I feel they should've done something else more along the lines of running combat than this, it's impossible to say that it's unnecessary to the game it's already in. (and even despite my feelings, I still see some charm in it)

EDIT: and the media dislikes just about everything about the series simply for them not being able to move 300mph in the game, or not having anything along the lines of Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Eggman (which I think should be done away with permanently, or used moderately)

I mean, my previous post is my opinion on the matter. That's what a message board is for; to discuss and share our opinions.

Yes, that's what were doing isn't it?

A message board is also a place where we can disagree or correct those opinions and debate on things and try to inform each other of the subject. I know it's your opinion, that's not going to stop me from disagreeing and correcting what I feel needs to be corrected.

I can't change how things appeal to you, but I can give certain points that I feel need to be addressed, which is what I'm doing. So don't think I'm trying to bite your head off, that's not what I'm doing. K?

Edited May 26, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[SuperStingray]

What I like about Unleashed, whether it's good or bad, is that it shows that Sonic Team is learning to integrate speed and platforming better. What I don't like about it is that it tried to do so by making them two different worlds, but at least it's on the right track.

[Mick]

I love the Werehog a lot. Half hedgehog, half werewolf. The concept is bloody brilliant.

To me, he looks pretty bad ass and metal. The way he fights is ace. He sounds like a mean S.O.B. when he fights badniks. You don't want to mess with the werehog if he was real. I love it when I'm facing these badniks and I don't get hit once by 'em since I really beat them up in such a fast and slick fashion. That's when I'm really focused and alert.