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Sonic Adventure 2 Discussion, Speculation, Media Topic

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the story has more holes than a swiss cheese, it's kinda fun in a ridiculous way. (I love Mystery Science Theatre so some bad stories are still entertaining for me!)

 

What were the big holes exactly? It was always straightforward to me but perhaps I didn't look closely enough.

 

To me the most obnoxious part was "Sonic is robbing us!" and the like; how can you possibly confuse Shadow for Sonic? Maybe if he's running all the time and is just a blur, but... he's seen at rest numerous times. The news lady even ZOOMS in on him!

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While you could argue the character animation is because the game is old, then how come Sonic Adventure could manage much more fluid animation from the characters at times?

 

Sure, this led to some..awkward results, but there was no reason that in SA1 the characters whip around like their high on caffeine when they beat a stage, and then in SA2 they move slow as hell.

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Despite the speed they were all bloody weird as hell. 

 

And also Adventure uses the camera a lot to create illusion of fast movement/speed and 'changes' in animation when there's like only 11 (pulled that from my mind) stock animations.

 

SA2 has more varied animations, and less awkward ones but seriously the derp ones are... REALLY derp.

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What were the big holes exactly? It was always straightforward to me but perhaps I didn't look closely enough.

 

1: As soon as Shadow escapes he faces a gun robot that shoots laser beams, and after that when Sonic is mistaken for Shadow he has to face a weaker version of that robot that has no laser beams... So the strong robot didn't work, let's send in the weaker robot, maybe that will work. As SolarisParadox says: The military in SA2 is run by George Bushtongue.png

 

2: Why did Shadow die? Seriously is this ever explained in the game? Sonic is just fine and is able to return but Shadow isn't? Why?

 

3: Why would Eggman have a space shuttle in the pyramid if he has a teleportation device to get into the ARK?

 

4: "I made a fake emerald that blows shit up"....Huh, Tails, when did you make that emerald? It can't be during the game's story as they never stop chasing Eggman to give him enough time to make the emerald for their plans. What, did he just make the emerald before all this happened? Why would he feel the need to make something like that during a time where nothing bad is going on?

 

5: How does Sonic suddenly know how to do Chaos Control? What, he learned it just by seeing Shadow doing it once? He didn't even fully understand what Shadow did. This problem even grew bigger in 06 where suddenly everyone just knows how to do it for some reasontongue.png

 

6,7,8,9,10: The next few plotholes are really hard for me to write them down because of how much there is to say so allow me to link to Johnny's review in the part where he talks about them, go to 9:25 :

 

 

And that's just off the top of my head. I could mention some more if i took some time to rewatch the cutscenes.

Edited by pppp

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Why did Shadow die? Seriously is this ever explained in the game? Sonic is just fine and is able to return but Shadow isn't? Why?

Shadow might've put more effort into fighting Biolizard and teleporting Ark back than Sonic.

Why would Eggman have a space shuttle in the pyramid if he has a teleportation device to get into the ARK?

What if it was built before he created a teleportation device? What if it's for plan B if said device would break?

"I made a fake emerald that blows shit up"....Huh, Tails, when did you make that emerald? It can't be during the game's story as they never stop chasing Eggman to give him enough time to make the emerald for their plans. What, did he just make the emerald before all this happened? Why would he feel the need to make something like that during a time where nothing bad is going on?

He could've made it between Sa and Sa2. Keep in mind that despite his age Tails is a genius. He constantly creates something technological and he constantly makes new research.

 

 

I'm not trying to say ALL plot holes could be explained like that. What I try to say is don't make up nonexistent plot holes. Some things can easily be explained. Hell, half of them are not even plot holes to begin with. Just some unanswered questions, that's all they are.

 

It never ceases to amaze me how much people want to find some plot holes in Sonic games with actually great stories or those with just complicated stories. Guys. It's easy to miss some things and let some plot holes be in such games. What I will never understand is why the same people say Colors and especially generations stories are "fine". FINE?! Those are either barebones with little to no progression, events and story-relevant dialogs or just nonexistent like in Generations. Yet Generations somehow made it possible to have even more nonsense that Sa2 or S06 or any other game with a complicated story.

I cannot and will not understand how it is even possible to screw up this much in a game with such a minimalistic story.

Edited by ArtFenix

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Despite the speed they were all bloody weird as hell. 

 

And also Adventure uses the camera a lot to create illusion of fast movement/speed and 'changes' in animation when there's like only 11 (pulled that from my mind) stock animations.

 

SA2 has more varied animations, and less awkward ones but seriously the derp ones are... REALLY derp.

Agreed. Also one thing I don't like about SA2 is you can't even get him to put his arms back on flat ground like in SA1, so it makes him look slower even though his acceleration is probably about the same in both games.

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2: Why did Shadow die? Seriously is this ever explained in the game? Sonic is just fine and is able to return but Shadow isn't? Why?

This is just my own opinion, but I think the reason Shadow "died" was because he DIDN'T want to live.

 

Think about it: Shadow has just spent the entire game on a roaring rampage of revenge for the loss of his loved one, and he is thoroughly convinced he is in the right. But then Amy throws a monkey wrench into that train of thought and forces him to remember what his friend really wanted. While he does prevent the ARK from crashing into Earth, he probably felt so guilty over the fact that he nearly broke his promise to Maria that he lost the will to continue, and decided to die in order to not only see his friend in the afterlife, but also as a sort of atonement for his actions.

 

This of course ties in with the fact that the power of the Chaos Emeralds is tied into one's thoughts and willpower, and since Shadow's willpower and thoughts were very final ("This is what you wanted, right? This is the promise I made to you." IIRC), the Chaos Emeralds lost their power/were greatly weakened, and thus he fell to Earth in spite of being Super Shadow.

Edited by 743-E.D. Missile

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It never ceases to amaze me how much people want to find some plot holes in Sonic games with actually great stories or those with just complicated stories. Guys. It's easy to miss some things and let some plot holes be in such games. What I will never understand is why the same people say Colors and especially generations stories are "fine". FINE?! 

 

Nobody actually really says that Colours and Generations have stories that are completely fine anymore, we're not in 2010 or post-Generations hype anymore man.

Edited by Semi-colon e

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1: As soon as Shadow escapes he faces a gun robot that shoots laser beams, and after that when Sonic is mistaken for Shadow he has to face a weaker version of that robot that has no laser beams... So the strong robot didn't work, let's send in the weaker robot, maybe that will work. As SolarisParadox says: The military in SA2 is run by George Bush:P

This is more gameplay than plot so it shouldn't matter anyway, but if you really need an answer it's because they don't have an unlimited number of laser-equipped mechs, so they've got to use what's available to them.

2: Why did Shadow die? Seriously is this ever explained in the game? Sonic is just fine and is able to return but Shadow isn't? Why?

He exhausted himself. It's not entirely clear why he was so much more exhausted than Sonic, but, whatever.

3: Why would Eggman have a space shuttle in the pyramid if he has a teleportation device to get into the ARK?

He could have it for any number of reasons. The thing could've been sitting around for years, just that this is the first time it's come up.

4: "I made a fake emerald that blows shit up"....Huh, Tails, when did you make that emerald? It can't be during the game's story as they never stop chasing Eggman to give him enough time to make the emerald for their plans. What, did he just make the emerald before all this happened? Why would he feel the need to make something like that during a time where nothing bad is going on?

I can't explain why Tails has one that explodes, but being able to create functional fake emeralds, mass produced sources of near unlimited power, would change the world more than any technology ever has. It makes sense that a benevolent scientist who's already been working with the emeralds might try to make his own.

5: How does Sonic suddenly know how to do Chaos Control? What, he learned it just by seeing Shadow doing it once? He didn't even fully understand what Shadow did. This problem even grew bigger in 06 where suddenly everyone just knows how to do it for some reason:P

He could already use the emeralds to some extent, and he managed to figure out how to do what Shadow did. Also the only other character that uses it in '06 is Silver, so it's hardly "everyone".

6,7,8,9,10: The next few plotholes are really hard for me to write them down because of how much there is to say so allow me to link to Johnny's review in the part where he talks about them, go to 9:25 :

Using his numbering:

1. Shady government organizations can record whatever the hell they want. As for how it gets everywhere else, there's no stated explanation but I figure it was Shadow's doing, considering he was working to fulfill Gerald's revenge scheme the whole time.

2. GUN wanted to bury everything related to the ARK; blasting a space station to bits would likely call a lot of attention to them. Also with Gerald dead and Shadow sealed away they probably figured it wasn't even an issue anymore.

3. Again, I blame Shadow. Gerald did the calculations in his cell, he inserted this knowledge into Shadow's brain and twisted his memories so he'd carry out the plan.

4. It doesn't matter who, specifically, ordered the attack. Whoever was in charge of GUN at the time, apparently. The reason for it, is because they didn't trust the crazy shit Gerald and the other scientists were up to, so they shut it down by force. It was a stupid way to go about it maybe but that's kind of the point.

5. Who knows why GUN allowed this, but he was, apparently, allowed to work on Shadow when they were both on Prison Island. Stunning incompetence on GUN's part? Maybe, but that's not really a plothole.

It's just, sure, the story doesn't flow that great when you look at everything in detail, there's definitely problems that can be pointed out, but a lot of times it's like people aren't willing to make any inferences and expect the game to spell out every detail in small words or else it's a gaping plothole.

 

It never ceases to amaze me ...

And it never ceases to amaze me how much you'll cry whenever someone doesn't agree with you.

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Nobody actually really says that Colours and Generations have stories that are completely fine anymore, we're not in 2010 or post-Generations hype anymore man.

 

What if I were to say that cause I don't feel these Sonic games with these so called complicated stories to be that appealing to me anymore.

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What if I were to say that cause I don't feel these Sonic games with these so called complicated stories to be that appealing to me anymore.

 

I was being a little generalistic. It's pretty rare people say Colours and Generations are fine though, so you're in the minority inside the fanbase anyway :P

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I was being a little generalistic. It's pretty rare people say Colours and Generations are fine though, so you're in the minority inside the fanbase anyway tongue.png

 

I'm fine being in the minority. tongue.png I don't see why the topic with Colors and Generation always get brought up whenever somebody even slightly criticized SA2 story like it's a crime to like or enjoy any of the modern Sonic game stories over SA2's.

Edited by sonfan1984

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ArtFenix already explained some of the plotholes, let me see if I can address the ones in the video:

Gerald scribbled a ton of equations and such on his wall (the fact Amy calls attention to this, I think, is meant to imply that it is the same cell Gerald was in decades ago). I think at some point the government probably tried to rehabilitate him (he was, after all, incredibly brilliant), and it was during this point he was able to reprogram the ARK and Shadow, having already written all the equations out on his cell. Shadow presumably already being in stasis, it wouldn't have been too hard to tweak a few things.

We can run with the conclusion the military shortly after decided he was too dangerous (likely caught him) to be allowed to live and executed him for the public good.

Valid points on how the broadcast suddenly is displayed throughout the world. Since Shadow knew all along what Gerald's plan was, it is possible he somehow did it, though. We haven't exactly established his intelligence level, but I think it's a safe bet to say he's clever and skilled enough to have such abilities.

No idea why the government didn't destroy ARK. Could be chalked up as political incompetence. A worldwide intelligence operation could probably wipe out the Eggman Empire once and for all by cutting its funding (assuming Eggman's vast resources very likely come from a massive criminal empire), but they haven't done that yet either.

The most interesting point is who exactly ordered the attack on the ARK. As for murdering all those present - well, that's the simple "leave no witnesses" rule. Gerald himself wasn't killed on the spot likely because he was deemed useful enough to be given a second chance. No idea why the Commander wasn't killed as well, but Shadow the Hedgehog's story is abysmal anyway.

As for the Chaos Control fiasco - I agree it quickly became stupid after SA2 since everyone knew it, but Sonic basically made a lucky guess. "Can I do this?" He was unsure, clearly, but knew it was his only real option. Fortunately, he was able to pull it off. Given his past use of Chaos Emeralds, it makes sense he's not entirely inept in their usage. I think the reason he doesn't make use of chaos powers and stuff is that it would make life far too easy.

 

==

 

Of course I've gotten into this discussion before. How much of bad ideas for characters can be blamed on the fact they make mistakes like you and me, or on the writer's quality?

 

Also, tons of exposition drags a plot on far longer than necessary. Some things are meant to be implied and figured out on your own.

Edited by Ogilvie Maurice

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What if it was built before he created a teleportation device? What if it's for plan B if said device would break?

 

There's not a single line of dialog that explains that, in fact most of the defenses I'm seeing here are just assumptions. I'm sorry but I shouldn't have to make up excuses for every error the writers make. If there's no line in the script explaining it's a plothole.

 

Also this game's story is contrived as hell. Everytime something needs to happen so the plot can advance it happens even if it's illogical.

 

"Oh shit how are we gonna get Sonic into the Ark? Uh, there just happens to be a shuttle in there".

 

"We need Shadow to die so he dies, no reason at all". As for Dio's reasoning, again if the game doesn't tell me how do I know that's what happened.

Edited by pppp

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And it never ceases to amaze me how much you'll cry whenever someone doesn't agree with you.

It was never about that man.

Nobody actually really says that Colours and Generations have storiesthat are completely fine anymore, we're not in 2010 or post-Generations hype anymore man.

Yes, that is right and still if somebody starts to try to find plot holes in Sonic games, it's usually

a) S06 (alright, makes sense though I thought beating the dead horse should've got boring long time ago)

cool.png Sa2

Fans very rarely discuss how bad Generations is in terms of plot holes and not making any sense. That's what makes me irritated and while most of the fans are "not in 2010......hype anymore" the topics are just the same.

Is it really that funny to keep trying to find flaws and plot holes in a game with complicated (and pretty good btw) story which is also more than 10 years old?

What I don't like is double standards. Nobody discusses (just mentions from time to time in other non-relevant topics) what abomination of story Generations is and how many of game's events don't make any sense, yet fans still do that with Sonic adventure 2. I wonder why. Is it because the game actually has a story which is complicated enough, which can take itself seriously when it needs to and which is not written to appeal to infants?

Edited by ArtFenix

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I will restate my original point. Not everything has to be explained, especially in the actual game itself. Otherwise you get bogged down with tons of exposition and not enough scene. That's a pitfall of writing. Sometimes your mind is left to wander for good reason.

 

Really it'd be nice if we were like Archie fans and could just ask the writers to explain stuff that wasn't, but since we can't really do so, it's convenient to jump the gun on plot holes. Something that isn't explained is not necessarily a plot hole; in many cases it's justified to avoid excessive exposition.

 

Imagine the story if all of the above were mentioned.

 

Eggman: "Well drat Sonic took that spaceship that I built in case my teleporter device should malfunction. I do not know why I am relaying what I already know myself."

 

Sonic: "I'm about to die but fortunately I can use Chaos Control because I saw Shadow do it once and have used the emeralds enough times that I should possibly be able to pull it off."

 

It just seems extremely forced. Sometimes it really is best to let people figure something out on their own than explaining every detail. How did Eggman find out the password to the computer rather than just hacking it? How did Rouge find out where Tails was to chase him down? These are just examples I can think of (I'm tired at the moment), but it's to set the point not everything needs an explanation and should be taken at face value.

 

It'd definitely be helpful for their to be author input on these matters to clear up confusion, but I've always thought it ridiculous to call everything that isn't explained a plot hole. Contrast to if Sonic showed up, suddenly had all of Shadow's chaos powers and put one between Eggman's eyes. That's pretty definitely a plot hole: there's no explanation how Sonic acquired such powers or why he's suddenly willing to murder.

Edited by Ogilvie Maurice

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What I don't like is double standards. Nobody discusses (just mentions from time to time in other non-relevant topics) what abomination of story Generations is and how many of game's events don't make any sense, yet fans still do that with Sonic adventure 2. I wonder why. Is it because the game actually has a story which is complicated enough, which can take itself seriously when it needs to and which is not written to appeal to infants?

 

1. Generations doesn't focus on storytelling, the plot is there mostly as an excuse for the gameplay while SA2 wants to tell a dramatic story, so they should pay attention to detail. Gen's plot does not make sense, it's true, but the game doesn't make it a focal point so why should I?

 

2. "Is it because the game actually has a story which is complicated

enough, which can take itself seriously when it needs to and which is

not written to appeal to infants?" - Sighhh, Sonic is for kids, always has been. Since the 90s. Can you honestly point me to an adult who loves Sonic not because he grew up with the series, but because his co-worker introduced it to him or something?

 

The reason i prefer Colors story over SA2's story is because its tone actually felt appropriate, The writers actually remembered they were dealing with cartoon characters and treated them as such.

 

And i know you're gonna throw your "Not this argument again, just because theyre cartoons doesns't mean there shouldn't be a realistic story". No, cartoony hedgehogs and realistic humans don't mix. Sonic looks horribly out of place in a world like that, it looks silly and impossible to take seriously. Since you love 06 so much answer me this: What kind of realistic world has antropormophic cats(Blaze) and realistic dogs? Back to SA2: What kind of world has antropormophic hedgehogs talking to a realistic president and his secretary?

 

Look, I'm not saying we can't have substantial stories in Sonic games, they just need to feel appropriate for cartoon characters. Here's how i would do it: Take Unleashed's artstyle with cartoony humans that feel like they belong there and write a PIXAR style story. A story that's equally funny and dramatic without going into the "Terrorist activities/Aliens attacking/Generic demon monster prophecy" bullshit.

 

Sonic is a cartoon, always has been. Even the original Sonic Team knew this, the Sonic OVA and the "Man of the Year" short prove that's how the original creators saw this franchise.

Edited by pppp

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1. Generations doesn't focus on storytelling, the plot is there mostly as an excuse for the gameplay while SA2 wants to tell a dramatic story, so they should pay attention to detail. Gen's plot does not make sense, it's true, but the game doesn't make it a focal point so why should I?

Gens story is still there. It's almost nonexistent but it's there. And since that's the fact, it's not an excuse for it's awful execution especially since it's so darn simple. As I've said previously, it's much easier to screw something up with a complicated story full of events, character development etc. than it is with almost nonexistent story and not only screw up something but almost everything!!! In my eyes it's much, much worse and shameful than any mistakes they could oversee in Sa2.

Sonic is for kids, always has been.

I got to know the series when I was a kid but I became a fan of it after playing Sadx. Sonic is for everyone and while kids = the main target audience, teenagers are also there. At least, used to be until Unleashed came out and they decided to make the franchise too childish. They used to appeal to both kids and teenagers. Just look at the adventures stories, lyrics and art direction. Now compare those to Colors and the likes. Too darn childish for the most part.

The reason i prefer Colors story over SA2's story is because its tone actually felt appropriate, The writers actually remembered they were dealing with cartoon characters and treated them as such.

Being a cartoon doesn't mean that it MUST be fucking kindergarten level. You know what? I LOVE Avatar: the last airbender series. And you know what? It's a cartoon! Can you imagine? And I don't even think I need to mention Korra or even Disney classics like Lion king.

Sonic adventure and it's sequel didn't cross the line. Not even once. If by cartoons you understand some very childish shows, then you must've got some wrong thoughts about what a cartoon can be.

 

Oh yeah, almost forgot: Not this argument again!

 

Since you love 06 so much answer me this: What kind of realistic worldhas antropormophic cats(Blaze) and realistic dogs? Back to SA2: What kind of world has antropormophic hedgehogs talking to a realistic president and his secretary?

Ever heard of such word: fantasy setting? Or a fairy tale? There are a lot of things like that in those. People create the world they want to and if they want to create one where there are people and antropomorphic animals coexist, I have no objections. Oh wait, take a look will you

138812-Untitled48.jpg

Sands-of-Destruction-Complete-Collection

Ninken.jpg

Team-Rocket-team-rocket-19632374-695-519

And I don't even have to show these pics. As I've said: they can create the world whatever they want.

 

 

P.S. One other mention: up until Unleashed it felt like there was one giant Universe Sonic characters lived in. Now it looks like every single game is some kind of filler with no real connections to the established Universe. (Established by all other games until Unleashed). One more reason why I love games like Sa2 and don't like too cartoony style of everything in new games. Looks like SEGA has the same way of thinking as you do speaking about what cartoons (even those for kids) can be.

Edited by ArtFenix

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138812-Untitled48.jpg

Sands-of-Destruction-Complete-Collection

Ninken.jpg

And I don't even have to show these pics. AS I've said: they can create a world whetever they want.

 

Well, that looks silly. Never seen that series but i definitely wouldn't be able to take whatever happened to that woman seriously if that pirate bear was on-screen. It looks hilariously silly. Like I said: Pixar style is the key.

 

Also no they can't create any world they want. Like i said, the original Sonic Team conceived Sonic as a cartoon, so it should stay like that.

Edited by pppp

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