Sonic Adventure 2 Discussion, Speculation, Media Topic

[Diogenes]

As for Dio's reasoning, again if the game doesn't tell me how do I know that's what happened.

You don't, you make an assumption, you connect the dots, you read between the lines a little bit, you don't say "well they didn't straight up say it so it's a complete mystery". I mean seriously, why the fuck do you need an explanation for Eggman having a rocket? He's a fucking mad scientist, robots and machines are his deal, so why couldn't he have one?

 

Fans very rarely discuss how bad Generations is in terms of plot holes and not making any sense.

Generations doesn't have plot holes because it doesn't have a plot. You want to complain about that, go ahead, but you don't, you cry about a game you like getting negative attention when you think a game you don't like should be getting negative attention.

[ArtFenix]

I'm pretty sure I gave decent examples to that stupid argument "but Sonic is a cartoon".

Everything else is irrelevant.

Shit in Gens that doesn't make sense

 - Why does Sonic fight Shadow and Silver

 - How does he beat Perfect Chaos when in Sa it was clearly thanks to the positive energy of chaos emeralds and in Gens you fight him as normal Sonic without emeralds

 - Why is Crisis City in the game? I could understand if it was Kingdom Valley because that location still exist in Sonic's world but Crisis City??? That's a location not only from the future but from bad future

 - Why classic Sonic can't talk? he could clearly talk back in the times and considering Tails can talk then why can't Sonic? That makes no sense!

 - The whole "Sonic should revisit some random locations from the past in order to save everything" just doesn't makes sense

 - Why are Eggmans so different? Sonic adventure showed us redesigned characters but Generations had both designs and claimed that they were one and the same person just from the past and present.

 - How on earth is Sonic bringing back that "color" thing to the location just by going through levels?

 - Why are Silver and Shadow present at Sonic's birthday if he just fought them?

 - How the hell can Blaze remember Crisis City?

 - If Eggmans (or Eggmen) plotted all this how can Sonic fight them in the past if they operate the Time Eater machine? Wouldn't that make two Eggmen in the past? (one operating the Death Egg robot and one sitting in the Time Eater machine)?

 - If, for example, the Death robot fight was from the events of Sonic 2 and you somehow explain the previous question, then that means Eggman from Sonic 2 knew about his future self all along and if so, he would most likely know about his future failures but he would still build them. Why?

 - What is wrong with chaos emeralds? Why can't Eggmen take them? There was a cutscene where they tried and the emerald just blocked itself. Why?

 - Tails clearly should remember Green Hill zone. Sure, he wasn't in Sonic 1 but Emerald hill and other "Hill" levels are very much like Green Hill.

 - Why does Sonic fight Silver in Crisis City instead of Soleana?

 

This is all I can remember for now. I'm sure there are more like those. And keep in mind, it all comes from the game with almost nonexistent story. HOW?!

And nobody really talks about that. Instead you yet AGAIN talk about how plot hole-heavy Sa2 is and stuff like that. That is double standards. That's what makes me irritated.

YES, I DO love both adventures (though I love Sa considerably more than Sa2 for several reasons). But it's not the main reason why I started writing all this.

 

 

Looks like the pics and other examples shut you up (that stupid nonsense that Sonic is a cartoon and Sa2 crossed the line) and now you try to move the argument somewhere else. It's funny how instead of just saying "alright, that makes sense, Sa2 is perfectly fine in terms of being a cartoon-like game" you just pretend that we didn't even disccuss that matter. You say it's awful that antropomorphic animals coexist along with real
dogs, cats etc but when I give you an example from the very first game, you try to pretend I didn't give any examples. Sometimes you try to create some plot holes or stuff like that simply because YOU think it looks bad or out of place or not "how it should be in a Sonic game". The whole argument "but it was there in the classic game, so it's meant to be like that" is stupid. If it was the case, games would never change, never evolve. It would be all the same shit over and over again like that classic Megaman series (which is fine but you can hardly tell the difference between the titles)

 

 

 

It's not really because it's yet again Sa2 that gets criticism. It's because you miss the games where stories suck for real and just pretend they're ok and decide to get back to old games with overall good stories and try to find more and more plot holes and inconsistencies.

Edited February 21, 2013 by ArtFenix

[Komodin]

So... about that Sonic Adventure 2. I don't know about you guys, but I for one think that's a far more interesting topic to discuss than whining about Modern Sonic games that I don't like.

Seriously, what was the point of King Boom Boo and the fight with it? It seemed more like a Big-Lipped Alligator Moment to me.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Komodin

[Diogenes]

fuckin' quotes keep breaking and shit

- Why does Sonic fight Shadow and Silver

Sonic and Shadow are rivals, and I believe Silver doesn't trust that Sonic is the real Sonic, what with all the strange shit that's gone on.

- How does he beat Perfect Chaos when in Sa it was clearly thanks to the positive energy of chaos emeralds and in Gens you fight him as normal Sonic without emeralds

He punches him in the brain. Since he's not Super Sonic that isn't enough to neutralize his negative energy, but punching a dude in the brain still hurts.

- Why is Crisis City in the game? I could understand if it was Kingdom Valley because that location still exist in Sonic's world but Crisis City??? That's a location not only from the future but from bad future

Weird time shit. Is it that unbelievable for a thing that can rip time to shreds to be able to snag a piece from an alternate timeline?

- Why classic Sonic can't talk? he could clearly talk back in the times and considering Tails can talk then why can't Sonic? That makes no sense!

Who ever said he can't talk? He simply doesn't talk. (because fans are big babies about video games)

- The whole "Sonic should revisit some random locations from the past in order to save everything" just doesn't makes sense

And tearing spacetime to pieces does? When you have something that's so far removed from any way the real world works, you've kinda gotta just roll with however they say it works.

- Why are Eggmans so different? Sonic adventure showed us redesigned characters but Generations had both designs and claimed that they were one and the same person just from the past and present.

...yes. Several years of failure has made modern Eggman a bit more unhinged than he used to be, and his fat has migrated a bit.

- How on earth is Sonic bringing back that "color" thing to the location just by going through levels?

Can you think of a better way? Again you gotta roll with how they say it works.

- Why are Silver and Shadow present at Sonic's birthday if he just fought them?

Because they teamed up afterwards?

- How the hell can Blaze remember Crisis City?

Legitimate plothole. No one knows what the fuck the deal is with this.

- If Eggmans (or Eggmen) plotted all this how can Sonic fight them in the past if they operate the Time Eater machine? Wouldn't that make two Eggmen in the past? (one operating the Death Egg robot and one sitting in the Time Eater machine)?

Maybe. So what if there are?

- If, for example, the Death robot fight was from the events of Sonic 2 and you somehow explain the previous question, then that means Eggman from Sonic 2 knew about his future self all along and if so, he would most likely know about his future failures but he would still build them. Why?

He's a crazy old fuck.

- What is wrong with chaos emeralds? Why can't Eggmen take them? There was a cutscene where they tried and the emerald just blocked itself. Why?

Weird time shit and the emeralds don't like him.

- Tails clearly should remember Green Hill zone. Sure, he wasn't in Sonic 1 but Emerald hill and other "Hill" levels are very much like Green Hill.

This doesn't make any sense, there's no reason he should remember a place he hasn't been to just because he's been to similar places.

- Why does Sonic fight Silver in Crisis City instead of Soleana?

Because Soleanna is boring as fuck.

This is all I can remember for now. I'm sure there are more like those. And keep in mind, it all comes from the game with almost nonexistent story. HOW?!

Because you're grasping for anything that'll give you a reason to cry.

[Kuzu]

The amount of buthurt in that post amazes me to no end. You keep arguing how "bad" Generatoons when nobody gives a fuck, EVERYONE has acknowledged it's lackluster story, just because we're not bitching about it like you are doesn't mean everyone thinks its "ok" we just don't care because the game hardly has a plot to tell.

And all of this goes back to you being buthurt about a game you like getting criticized.

[Komodin]

At the risk of looking like a hypocrite, I do have one little thing to address:

- Tails clearly should remember Green Hill zone. Sure, he wasn't in Sonic 1 but Emerald hill and other "Hill" levels are very much like Green Hill.

This makes as much sense as me knowing the full layout of Chicago just because I used to live in New York.

[JezMM]

There's not a single line of dialog that explains that, in fact most of the defenses I'm seeing here are just assumptions. I'm sorry but I shouldn't have to make up excuses for every error the writers make. If there's no line in the script explaining it's a plothole.

 

Also this game's story is contrived as hell. Everytime something needs to happen so the plot can advance it happens even if it's illogical.

 

"Oh shit how are we gonna get Sonic into the Ark? Uh, there just happens to be a shuttle in there".

 

"We need Shadow to die so he dies, no reason at all". As for Dio's reasoning, again if the game doesn't tell me how do I know that's what happened.

 

If you can make an assumption about a "plothole" that easily explains it without clashing with anything else, it probably isn't a plothole.  If something happens that is LITERALLY inexplicable, then you've got a plothole.

 

Hell, Sonic even explained it himself.

 

"That Eggman sure likes mechanical things doesn't he?  I bet he has one or two spaceships lying around here".  Sonic thought correctly.

 

 

Also, Shadow dying is also explained by script in the game.  Hang around long enough during the final boss and Sonic eventually starts telling Shadow to head back to the ARK because he doesn't seem to be able to maintain his super form (it being Shadsie's first time and all).  Indeed, Shadow is unable to maintain it after doing the massive chaos control and plummets out of the air bubble the ARK seems to have just like one does when dying in Final Rush/Chase.

 

But of course, Shadow didn't even die, he survived the fall to Earth (that one is only really explainable with video game "the characters ARE superheroes and can survive stuff humans wouldn't despite being cuddly lil' animals" logic).  Hell, Sonic survives falling from space in Unleashed in front of our very eyes after all.  Granted this probably wasn't their intention at time of writing because Shadow was most likely brought back from positive fan reception.

 

 

Either way point is, since you INSIST on it, both those examples were explained in the script so poo to you sir.  Poo to you.

[ArtFenix]

Sonic and Shadow are rivals, and I believe Silver doesn't trust that Sonic is the real Sonic, what with all the strange shit that's gone on.

What is the reason to fight? Sonic revisites old locations and events so that would mean Shadow was from the times of Sa2, right? But it contradicts the fact that it's clearly Shadow from the present as we can see from the HUB world.

And being rivals is not a really good reason to fight each other anyway, especially on some distant Space Colony from the past. Oh..I'm confused about all this already.

He punches him in the brain. Since he's not Super Sonic that isn't enough to neutralize his negative energy, but punching a dude in the brain still hurts.

Chaos is said to be the God of destruction (though he isn't but it gives us the idea about how powerful he really is). Originally it was mainly thanks to the positive energy that Sonic could defeat Chaos because it consumed negative energy and Sonic neutralised him with positive energy. I'm afraid a punch in the brain is simply not enough here.

Weird time shit. Is it that unbelievable for a thing that can rip time to shreds to be able to snag a piece from an alternate timeline?

Yes, yes it is. That is only possible if Time eater is even stronger than Solaris and somehow I highly doubt that. And even then it's incredibly strange why it chose the location from bad future of alternate timeline and it's the only location of that kind in the game.

Who ever said he can't talk? He simply doesn't talk. (because fans are big babies about video games)

Let's agree that he CAN'T talk because there is not any single reason for him to be silent, especially knowing his attitude from Classic games (Sonic CD, hi!)

Can you think of a better way? Again you gotta roll with how they say it works.

Oh..Alright.

Because they teamed up afterwards?

But Silver is from alternate bad future, right? He doesn't even know who the hell Sonic is because they fought in Crisis City and that means Silver didn't go to the past, he's just from his own time. But in the HUB world... Oh wait, that's our Silver we all know except..He's from the future. How did he turn up being there, in white space, in the middle of nowhere?

...yes. Several years of failure has made modern Eggman a bit more unhinged than he used to be, and his fat has migrated a bit.

They are too different to be one and the same character who changed like in how many ears? Two? because Sonic's age sure is pretty much the same as his Classic self which means...He also shouldnt have changed at all!

Legitimate plothole. No one knows what the fuck the deal is with this.

At least there is something that people can't deny.

He's a crazy old fuck.

That's bullshit. He is the smartest character in the series. BTW Sa2 Eggman would have never behave with such stupidity.

Weird time shit and the emeralds don't like him.

Pfffffffff. Lol/.

This doesn't make any sense, there's no reason he should remember a place he hasn't been to just because he's been to similar places.

Yes there is. Sonic wasn't asking him if he remembers Green Hill in particular. He just asked if that place is totally familiar. It sure is VERY familiar to many places Tails had been in.

Because Soleanna is boring as fuck.

Sonic Generations is a game that reimagined a lot of things. They could've easily reimagine Soleana fight. Maybe make some nice architecture and stuff. If Sonic was revisiting places from old, it definitely should've been Soleana.

Because you're grasping for anything that'll give you a reason to cry.

Nope. Those are things that should just not be present in a game with almost nonexistent story. Instead, you for the ***th time nag about Sa2 (a game with actually pretty great story) plot holes.

[Shane]

In my opinion, anybody who actually wants Sonic games to put story over gameplay and atmosphere should probably just go watch a movie or something. Generations' excuse plot is just there to hide the fact that the game is nothing more than a glorified level collection and it doesn't need to be analyzed. I like Generations as it is and a convoluted time travel plot is the last thing I'd want shoved in my face while playing it, especially considering Sonic Team's track record when it comes to storylines in Sonic games.

[Scar]

What the fuck happened here......?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Artfenix, get over it. Nobody who said they disliked SA2's story claimed to love Generations' story, so why are you wasting your goddamn time trying to tear it apart? Can't you tolerate somebody disliking something you like? Are you that insecure about the validity of your own opinion that you go on this longass tirade because somebody insulted your precious beloved SA2. Yes, SA2's story is better than Generations' story, but that doesn't make SA2's story perfect and it certainly doesn't exonerate it from criticism.

[Semi-colon e]

So... about that Sonic Adventure 2. I don't know about you guys, but I for one think that's a far more interesting topic to discuss than whining about Modern Sonic games that I don't like.

Seriously, what was the point of King Boom Boo and the fight with it? It seemed more like a Big-Lipped Alligator Moment to me.

 

I think it was literally to give Knuckles another boss aside from Rouge. Rouge got 2 with the other GUN Mech thing, so Knuckles had to have a boss somewhere. Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that, it just could have easily been taken out during development and people wouldn't be that bothered storywise, only gameplaywise because Knuckles now only had one boss (unless a replacement was made).

[Diogenes]

Sonic revisites old locations and events so that would mean Shadow was from the times of Sa2, right? But it contradicts the fact that it's clearly Shadow from the present as we can see from the HUB world.

Right, see, here's how it works: That first sentence contradicts the second sentence, because the first sentence isn't true.

And being rivals is not a really good reason to fight each other anyway

Yes it is.

Chaos is said to be the God of destruction (though he isn't but it gives us the idea about how powerful he really is). Originally it was mainly thanks to the positive energy that Sonic could defeat Chaos because it consumed negative energy and Sonic neutralised him with positive energy. I'm afraid a punch in the brain is simply not enough here.

Why not? Punching him in the brain hurt him every other time. Punch his brain enough and that's a win, even if it's not the same win he won before.

Yes, yes it is. That is only possible if Time eater is even stronger than Solaris and somehow I highly doubt that.

Do you have any reason to doubt that, aside from not liking it? Because if a thing does need to be more powerful than Solaris to rip Crisis City out of its alternate timeline, and the Time Eater does that, that seems to be proof that the Time Eater is more powerful than Solaris.

See there's this thing where we look at the evidence and follow it to the logical conclusion, rather than deciding things arbitrarily and then getting mad when the game doesn't conform to the shit we made up.

And even then it's incredibly strange why it chose the location from bad future of alternate timeline and it's the only location of that kind in the game.

It's no more and no less arbitrary than any other level.

Let's agree that he CAN'T talk

No. I'm not going to allow you to dictate facts arbitrarily. You've already proven you're no good at it.

But Silver is from alternate bad future, right?

No.

They are too different to be one and the same character who changed like in how many ears? Two? because Sonic's age sure is pretty much the same as his Classic self which means...He also shouldnt have changed at all!

That you don't believe they could have changed that much over the unknown time between Sonic 1 and the present doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

That's bullshit. He is the smartest character in the series. BTW Sa2 Eggman would have never behave with such stupidity.

He is a mad scientist. He may have an incredibly high IQ and be able to construct machines far more advanced than modern technology, but that doesn't mean that he acts sanely and logically. That's kind of the definition of a mad scientist: brilliant but insane. Also SA2 Eggman spent the whole game being fooled by Shadow, remember.

Yes there is. Sonic wasn't asking him if he remembers Green Hill in particular. He just asked if that place is totally familiar. It sure is VERY familiar to many places Tails had been in.

But this place in particular isn't familiar. He still doesn't find Green Hill, in particular, to be familiar, because he's never been there. Dude, this is seriously the stupidest fucking thing you've said in a post full of stupid fucking things, and that you don't realize this shows how little respect you have for the argument, and how you're only doing this because you're butthurt.

Sonic Generations is a game that reimagined a lot of things. They could've easily reimagine Soleana fight. Maybe make some nice architecture and stuff. If Sonic was revisiting places from old, it definitely should've been Soleana.

Sonic Team disagreed, and your disagreement with them does not make it a plothole no matter how much you whine about it.

Nope. Those are things that should just not be present in a game with almost nonexistent story. Instead, you for the ***th time nag about Sa2 (a game with actually pretty great story) plot holes.

And again you prove that you just want to cry about how people aren't liking a game you like as much as you like it, rather than actually giving a shit about storytelling or plotholes. Unless you have something meaningful to say, I'm not going to continue arguing with the equivalent of a 5 year old.

[Pawn]

In my opinion, anybody who actually wants Sonic games to put story over gameplay and atmosphere should probably just go watch a movie or something. Generations' excuse plot is just there to hide the fact that the game is nothing more than a glorified level collection and it doesn't need to be analyzed. I like Generations as it is and a convoluted time travel plot is the last thing I'd want shoved in my face while playing it, especially considering Sonic Team's track record when it comes to storylines in Sonic games.

 

Simply because somebody desires more of a story than the lackluster crap that Generations has to offer, it suddenly means that they're prioritising it over gameplay? I'm so tired of this fallacy.

 

If the idea of a substantial narrative really offends you that much, you can always just skip the cutscenes anyway.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Pawn

[ArtFenix]

Well if my post was full of fucking stupid things, yours sure is no different.

Nice way of explaining stuff man. At least I, supposedly being the equivalent of 5 y.o., actually tried. Thanks for the nice discussion.

[Diogenes]

At least I, supposedly being the equivalent of 5 y.o., actually tried.

Hhhhahaha, no you didn't.

[Shane]

Simply because somebody desires more of a story than the lackluster crap that Generations has to offer, it suddenly means that they're prioritising it over gameplay? I'm so tired of this fallacy.

 

If the idea of a substantial narrative really offends you that much, you can always just skip the cutscenes anyway.

 

Saying they shouldn't remake certain levels in a game about celebrating Sonic's history just because they don't make sense is putting story over gameplay.

[Kuzu]

Coulda sworn this topic was about Sonic Adventure 2...

[Scar]

Well if my post was full of fucking stupid things, yours sure is no different.

Nice way of explaining stuff man. At least I, supposedly being the equivalent of 5 y.o., actually tried. Thanks for the nice discussion.

 

Your argument was built upon rage, because somebody criticised SA2's story.

Why do you even care so much? Why did you need to bring Generations into this? Because Generations has a worse story? So? Just because SA2 has a better story than Generations, doesn't mean SA2 is suddenly now exempt from any narrative-related criticisms.... 

[DarkLight]

Coulda sworn this topic was about Sonic Adventure 2...

 

It still kinda is.

 

It's just someone had to compare it's story to the current games for the billionth time...

[ArtFenix]

Your argument was built upon rage, because somebody criticised SA2's story.

Why do you even care so much? Why did you need to bring Generations into this? Because Generations has a worse story? So? Just because SA2 has a better story than Generations, doesn't mean SA2 is suddenly now exempt from any narrative-related criticisms.... 

It started to be built upon rage when I saw people missing what I brought to the discussion. Talks about realism and it's place in the series, talks about me explaining why I started this, talks about (I agree, being not exactly on topic) Generations stupidity story-wise.

Sure, I may not be right on everything (And I'm sure some of you will think I'm wrong on everything) but even then when I bring something up that definitely proves me right (Pics with Cream for example or different pics or that I mentioned other cartoons that aren't a piece of infant's crap), people just behaved like it didn't happen. And answers like "No" is bullshit. That's when I started to base my replies on rage. Sorry if I said something that I shouldn have. But most of my points still stand. Think what you want about that. When you shove evidence in face and people ignore that, it's time to stop arguing with them. Especially when they start to call you a 5 y.o. child and say that your posts are fucking stupid. I guess, I should've been more wise and just stop it right there. But since I'm a stupid 5 y.o. child who doesn't make any sense and is always being wrong, I apoligise for being late and not ending this shit a bit earlier. Arguing with so many clever adults at the same time is pretty hard.

Best regards.

Edited February 21, 2013 by ArtFenix

[Pawn]

Saying they shouldn't remake certain levels in a game about celebrating Sonic's history just because they don't make sense is putting story over gameplay.

 

The point was that they ought have addressed the situation with Crisis City, assuming that's what you're referring to. All it would have taken was for Sonic to state that he didn't recognise it, only for Tails to quickly hypothesise that it had something to do with the Time Eater's effect across all of time and space. It's a quick and easy exchange, much like the one they had about Green Hill (which was the least they could have done for each of the levels).

[SenEDDtor Missile]

In my opinion, anybody who actually wants Sonic games to put story over gameplay and atmosphere should probably just go watch a movie or something. Generations' excuse plot is just there to hide the fact that the game is nothing more than a glorified level collection and it doesn't need to be analyzed. I like Generations as it is and a convoluted time travel plot is the last thing I'd want shoved in my face while playing it, especially considering Sonic Team's track record when it comes to storylines in Sonic games.

No one (me especially) wants to put a story over gameplay when it comes to Sonic. I just want Sonic stories to be roughly on par with the gameplay, and have meaningful substance and consequence. I want characters to actually FEEL like people when they talk or converse, with a good variety of reactions to different situations, and maybe throw in some character development every once in a while.

 

By twisting the statement into "It's either story or gameplay, nothing in between", you are just attacking a strawman, and ignoring the core reason of the story people's general argument.

 

Granted I do agree that Sonic Team's general track record for storylines is questionable, but telling them to stop trying altogether is hardly any better, and it screws over the people who still wish to see something comparable to Secret Rings, Black Knight, and (to me) Unleashed.

Edited February 21, 2013 by 743-E.D. Missile

[sonfan1984]

If the idea of a substantial narrative really offends you that much, you can always just skip the cutscenes anyway.

 

 

I wish somebody would say that to all the reviewers and the people for critiicizing Sonic games for even having a story period.

[Kuzu]

Ok, seriously. How & Why did this turn into yet another topic about story in Sonic games? For fuck's sake people, we've already gone through this. We know story is important in games, we know the series is notorious for making some pretty bad stories. Just once I'd like to talk about this game without an argument popping up that once again brings up "Is Story important in Sonic games" argument. I think we've had this at least twice in this topic.

 

Can't we just talk about this game without it's fans getting into a butthurt rage about it.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Ok, seriously. How & Why did this turn into yet another topic about story in Sonic games? For fuck's sake people, we've already gone through this. We know story is important in games, we know the series is notorious for making some pretty bad stories. Just once I'd like to talk about this game without an argument popping up that once again brings up "Is Story important in Sonic games" argument. I think we've had this at least twice in this topic.

 

Can't we just talk about this game without it's fans getting into a butthurt rage about it.

 

Well to be fair, the argument did kinda start when SA2's story popped into the "discussion", so it isn't THAT surprising that it ended up going down this path.