How Christian Fundamentalists Plan to Teach Genocide to Schoolchildren

[Diogenes]

Most people who stick with a religion choose it when they're an adult, many former child christians leave during their teenage years. That wouldn't happen if free will was being bypassed. That argument always bugs me because of how inaccurate it is, but how widespread it is.

I'm...not really sure that's true? I mean, sure, some people do change one way or the other (or one of several other ways) as they get older, but I don't think you can discount people continuing to believe what they were brought up to believe. Once an idea gets in someones head, it can be awfully hard to get it out.

[Patticus]

The whole reason why children are indoctrinated to begin with is because their minds are incredibly malleable, and because the first 15 years or so are when a person's personality really takes shape.

Yes, they might later on decide that x religion is not for them, I'm sure a lot of people do just that, but they will forever be influenced by the way they were brought up, the things they were taught as children, the attitudes they developed (and were told were right and good) as they grew up in that environment. Why do you think there are so many bigots, racists and zealots around?

A lot of people choose not to break away from that; some because their family or parents are that way and they don't want to cause a rift, others because they are dominated and pressured by x family member (often a domineering father or mother figure), and others still because of the comfort of being a part of a community and the soothing certainty obtained by believing from their earliest days that that is the one true path to everlasting peace/glory/etc.

Not everyone can or wants to extricate themselves from the religious mire they are born into, Gerk.

[JezMM]

This is true. I was raised Christian and despite being surrounded by athiest peers with solid arguements during my entire adolescence, I've never been able to shake it off. It makes me uncomfortable to entertain the thought that God or an afterlife doesn't exist.

I like to refer to myself as Cautiously Christian. I always treat others how I wish to be treated and try to keep as healthily selfless as I can through life. I don't believe answers can be found in some dusty old book that, for example, was written entirely by men and had all passages written by women removed long ago by sexists, among other such old-fashioned bullshit treatment. I know there's no proof, life has proven to me time and time again that I cannot always just rely on God to protect and love me or the world 24/7.

And yet whenever something bad happens, I ask him why. Whenever something good happens I thank him for it.

And to be able to have that kind of faith despite acknowledging that everything is against it? That takes some serious childhood brainwashing.

[Candescence]

I myself was raised a Christian, as well. Public and high schools over here in Australia do have religious classes, though much more moderate and focusing more on trying to teach kids to be kind to others and all that stuff. My teacher back in high school was a nice guy who tried to teach the more positive aspects of Christianity, and I don't really regret learning anything from him at all.

That being said, I'm in the same boat as JezzMM, "Cautiously Christian", and a Protestant at that. Those classes didn't stop my brother from becoming atheist, though. The idea of there being no God or afterlife is uncomfortable with me as well, though a good deal partly because the idea of the latter not existing is just fucking terrifying. I don't want to simply cease to exist when I die. It's nightmare-inducing, really.

All of this said, what these groups are doing is just taking things way too far. I'd like to ignore most of the Old Testament, except for the Ten Commandments, and for good reason.

[DGam'r]

For certain groups, Force and Spread are pretty much interchangable.

Hmm...you may be right.

[Patticus]

As a Christian, I think it's important to keep this in mind:

I may not fully understand certain Old Testament conflicts, but I do know that these were specific instances, not general rules for believers to follow. The message of love - including love toward those who do not believe as we do - is far more prevalent, and is featured consistently throughout the New Testament.

While I cannot deny that God's wrath was a consistent theme in the Old Testament, and that this was sometimes ordered to be carried out by his followers, no such orders were ever given in the New Testament. Conversely, we see Jesus tell us to love our enemies, rush to the aid of a woman about to be stoned for adultery, and many more examples of what Christians should be doing.

We as Christians cannot use some specific Old Testament events as our norm or our guide. It disgusts me that modern believers have tried to use these events to justify modern killings, and I feel that it is antithetical to Christianity's message to do so.

Christians of all its various denominations have for centuries sadly missed the point of the Bible's positive messages, and the passages featured in the article in the OP have time and again been used to justify all manner of atrocious acts, both against non-believers (land grabbing and the murder of Native Americans etc) and believers (during the European religious wars of the Reformation era) alike. They aren't rules for believers to follow by any means, and most believers today don't follow them, but because of their very presence in that book they have long acted as a form of justification for incredibly malignant, unChristian behavior by an (at times) influential few, who then point to the Bible to say, "God sanctioned this, shut up and let us do God's work."

As long as these passages are there, there will be people willing to use them to continue justifying obscene acts and indoctrinate the zealots of tomorrow.

They have no right to have religion in school. After school clubs, like Bible study, is fine as long as the school stays out of the clubs. My HS had a Bible study class, didn't bother me.

If the clubs are held on school grounds then as far as I am concerned that is a decidedly toxic link between school and religion; it's much easier for kids to attend after-school clubs on school grounds than to have someone take them to an outside location. I don't like it. It's a foot in the door for these genocidal fundamentalists to recruit among the impressionable youth of modern America. I don't believe it should be permitted. Off-site? Yeah, fine, so long as it doesn't become a Christian Terror Training Camp (or a general hate group) it can be whatever it likes, but not on school property at any time of day or night.

[Emmett L. Brown]

Christianity, like all modern religions, is a "smorgasboard religion"; where followers pick and choose which rules to follow and which to ignore. The fact that these assholes pick all the malicious rules and ignore the ones about not killing and not judging proves that they are horrible, horrible people.

You suck, Christian fundamentalists refered to in this thread!

[Old dead account]

are these idiots the ones in power now? Do they outnumber the sane ones? Why the fuck do these fundamentalists deliberately choose to follow all the hateful and intolerant and violent examples? It's frustrating really, I wanna say it's a misunderstanding, but...

[Diogenes]

The idea of there being no God or afterlife is uncomfortable with me as well, though a good deal partly because the idea of the latter not existing is just fucking terrifying. I don't want to simply cease to exist when I die. It's nightmare-inducing, really.

[LATER BUDDY]

I have to say, I've never understood this. Maybe it's because my family is essentially nonreligious so no one ever told me I was supposed to live forever, so I can't see why eventual and inevitable nonexistence is something to be afraid of. Sure, dying sucks, and I certainly prefer existing to not existing, but it's not like the not-existing part hurts or anything. To steal a half-remembered quote, I didn't exist for millions of years before I was born, and it didn't bother me one bit. And considering how rarely I dream, I may as well be not existing every night.

Personally I find the concept of hell, eternal torture for what is quite likely an insignificant offense, far more disturbing.

[Stacy]

Hmmm.... Its like I am the only here who thinks that we are here just because shit happens?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I find how this hilariously exposes the hypocrisy among Christian Fundamentalists.

I think it's their way of making a new form of Jim Crow in this country, but I'm probably just stretching things too much. But really, I'd love to see them try to pull this shit.

Ungh, it's 2012. Why is shit like this still happening?

This frustrates me so much. Why is this not against the law? I swear, some people just cling to religion and are afraid to move away from it- move away from the past. They get defensive and think that trying to take Christianity out of schools is some kind of attack on them when it isn't.

And then shit like this happens because we didn't do anything. Practicing religion freely is all fine and dandy, but kids are naturally dumb and impressionable. Preeching this stuff will never do anything but bad.

If you ask me, it's because they're afraid of losing power in this country that is now becoming more pluralistic and accepting of other differences in ideology. The want to continue to be on the pedestal they have for the past few centuries since not a lot of attention has been given to non-Christians until this point in time, and now that it's slipping they want to find a way to keep it.

Honestly, I'm expecting this to be shut down, because it could wind up being a very instigator for very violent actions. Kids who are taught that "genocide is justified" would likely have more than a few try to do this. But really, these people should know better, and it's a shame that they're grown men and women who choose not to (or worse, dont).

[SuperStingray]

I'm on the same page, but I guess I can understand the idea of being a weird concept to grasp that you'd be literally no more. I believe I rot in the ground when I die and that's that, but it still crosses my brain from time to time just the idea of my thoughts, my everything, and just me in general not being here anymore. It's a pretty crazy idea to wrap around considering everything you know and believe is from your own perspective and thinking. To have that end is just mind boggling, at least on my end. I find it really really interesting.

Anyways, that's what I always thought of afterlife ideas stemming from, so I can understand people seeking something a little more. Just finding a cope or something. I don't mean to spiral off topic though, and I really do apologize if that came off bad toward anyone.

Even as a strict athiest and determinist, I actually find it hard to believe death is forever. I'm not trying to be idealistic, but pre-life wasn't forever so why should post-life be? Maybe it will take ten million years, maybe fifty trillion. Maybe other universes will live and die while my consciousness remains dormant, but the point is if reality saw fit to give me life once, I don't see what could prevent it from it happening again in this infinite span of time and randomness.

More on topic though, if you ask me, the teachings of the Bible aren't the problem- it's the readers. Uneducated and impressionable people are likely to hate anything that seems strange and difficult to comprehend, dismissing things like homosexuality and interracial marriage as deviant regardless of their faith. The Bible has enough contradictions to let you pick and choose your beliefs, so to legitimize their hate, they pick and choose the ones that let them think hating and killing people they personally find indecent is part of God's will. At the same time, there are Christians out there who are rational, genuine and nonimposing people, but it's generally because they interpret the Bible to fit within the parameters of their conscience, not the other way round.

[JezMM]

I have to say, I've never understood this. Maybe it's because my family is essentially nonreligious so no one ever told me I was supposed to live forever, so I can't see why eventual and inevitable nonexistence is something to be afraid of. Sure, dying sucks, and I certainly prefer existing to not existing, but it's not like the not-existing part hurts or anything. To steal a half-remembered quote, I didn't exist for millions of years before I was born, and it didn't bother me one bit. And considering how rarely I dream, I may as well be not existing every night.

Personally I find the concept of hell, eternal torture for what is quite likely an insignificant offense, far more disturbing.

Funnily enough, it's not so much that I'm scared that I won't exist, as you say, I wouldn't care.

What terrifies me is my deceased loved ones no longer exist. I cannot deal with the idea I will never get to be with my deceased family members, my pets, my friends, ever again. If there's no afterlife, that's fine, I won't exist to care! But me, existing now, would collapse at the thought that they're all gone forever.

On the thoughts of hell... well, I'm kind of counting on that vengeful God thing from the Bible being a load of shit. If he's really all-loving he wouldn't condone anyone to eternal torture. Not even the worst people in the world deserve that. They deserve a hell a lot of punishment, but eternally? - no.

[Mollfie]

Something I've always found interesting is how the God of the Old Testament is like a totally different to the God of the New Testament. It's as if they are two different Gods.

I was raised Catholic, I went to Catholic primary school and my family are pretty religious, especially my mum. Also one of my aunts is a minister. They all have the belief that everything happens for a reason, that it's God's plan, that God will protect you etcetc. However I am not Catholic. As a kid I went along with it because I wanted to make my parents happy and I do find religion interesting, I just don't want to be a part of it. I dislike organised religion because of things like this, because humans are prone to making mistakes and, sadly, becoming corrupt.

I don't believe in heaven or hell. I don't know if there is an afterlife and it doesn't worry me. If there is, great. If there isn't, well I'm dead so it won't bother me. It doesn't really bother me that the people and pets I've loved over the years are no longer here and might not exist somewhere else either because I believe that it's more important to enjoy the ones we care about while they are with us and not take them for granted, and I also think that the ones we love continue to live on in a way through our memories of them.

I can't explain why these things don't bother me though or why even as a kid I figured that religion wasn't really for me. I like churches etc, I even quite like going to mass with my mum at Christmas but it's more that I like the environment, the calm and I've generally found most religious people to be friendly and kind people. But I simply find religion interesting. Even as a kid I really liked finding out what different religious texts have in common. For example how the Koran and the Bible contain pretty much the same stories but they are often written in different ways, in some there are different characters and in others there are different outcomes too. But the Bible was always just a book of stories to me, it was never some sort of rule book.

Anyway, there will always be nutjobs and sadly a lot of them cling to religion and try to use it to justify their ridiculous views. It cannot be allowed. It's in-sighting hate. The government needs to step in and tell these people to back off. I think that religion should be taught in schools because it is a big part of our society and culture, but we should never teach kids that it's okay to think like this.

I don't think that religion in itself is inherently evil, I think that for a lot of people it offers them solace and comfort, and who am I to deny someone that? I don't care what people do or believe in as long as they're not hurting people, but these people are actively trying to cause harm and that's just plain wrong whatever way you look at it.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Mollfie

[Mono]

Personally I find the concept of hell, eternal torture for what is quite likely an insignificant offense, far more disturbing.

I don't think hell exists. It's really not discussed in the Bible at all. The concept of hell really started hundreds of years after Christ.

Most of my catholic friends don't believe in it as well.

[Conando]

Hell is some kind of shit they made up well after Christ's Death. From what I understand, it's more of a spin-off from the Jewish belief that when you die you're sort of just dead, in that Christ made it so it's not like that anymore but, there wasn't really an idea of burning in hellfire.

[Indigo Rush]

I don't think hell exists. It's really not discussed in the Bible at all. The concept of hell really started hundreds of years after Christ.

Most of my catholic friends don't believe in it as well.

Hell is some kind of shit they made up well after Christ's Death. From what I understand, it's more of a spin-off from the Jewish belief that when you die you're sort of just dead, in that Christ made it so it's not like that anymore but, there wasn't really an idea of burning in hellfire.

Erm, the Bible (and Jesus) specifically talks about hell quite a few times. Certain things can be challenged towards their interpretation, but the Bible clearly teaches of a place for the wicked (as well as the righteous) after death. Either way, it's not the most comforting thing you'll hear about in Christianity.

Not that I'm interested in debating the afterlife so I'll move towards the topic at hand. I do want to say that the actions and beliefs of this little cult don't make me ashamed to be a Christian. In fact, I couldn't be more proud of my personal beliefs knowing that I don't try to segregate chapters in the Bible non-contextually in order to justify modern-day genocide. I have enough faith in the intelligence of my fellow SSMB members (much less other mentally sound human beings) to know that they wouldn't associate the general Christian beliefs with the likes of these guys.

Dr. Mechano summed up my feelings about this, otherwise.

Also, JezMM's suggestion of having religion taught in a religious studies' perspective is a good enough compromise for me. That's actually something I lacked in public school, and had to learn on my own for the most part. At least the option would be nice, so nobody feels pressured into attending it, even if it's from a neutral perspective.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Indigo Rush

[SonikkuForever]

are these idiots the ones in power now? Do they outnumber the sane ones? Why the fuck do these fundamentalists deliberately choose to follow all the hateful and intolerant and violent examples?

1. No.

2. No.

3. Because it gets them attention, and it's easier to hate than to love.

With that said, I fail to see how this is being "forced" on anyone. From what I gather, it's just an attempt at a voluntary after-school activity. And I honestly wouldn't imagine parents letting their children be "recruited", either. It is scary, though. Just the other day a fundamentalist pastor got serious backlash for giving a rousing speech about how gay people should be put in concentration camps until they all die off, therefore eradicating the "disease". What if some whackjob like that actually gets governmental power? *shudders*

[Legendary Emerald]

I find issue with those who try to marginalize the Old Testament. It makes up more than half of the collected works of the bible's various writers for a reason. Let's look at god from the perspective that yes, he does exist.

Terrible, unconscionable things happen in the old testament through direct order of god himself. The god of the old testament is a bloody tyrant who wants all who do not believe in him to be killed, and forever separated from goodness for the rest of eternity. This same god is directly or indirectly responsible for the existence of all "evil" and non-belief in the world, due to either neglecting his subjects, or faulty programming when he created the human race.

In the New Testament, god tries to clean up his act a bit. He sends his son down to cleanse the world from the sin that he himself allowed to exist, and long story short, humans can now pray for forgiveness and if they really mean it, they get to not suffer for all eternity. Hooray.

But has god really redeemed himself of his former actions? Not truly. For one, sin still exists, because god allows it to exist, and an unpleasant afterlife exists for the same reason. The only reason why he would allow such taints on this world to exist are that he is a petty ruler who wants love and adoration without earning it, and thinks that installing fear in the hearts of men is a valid way of gaining respect and belief.

Secondly, and perhaps more tellingly, is that god never apologizes for his previous actions. He never says "oops, sorry I told you to kill all of the amalakites. My bad." And if you think that god never has need to apologize, by virtue of his being god, then you are essentially saying that just because he is in a position of high power, he is capable of doing no wrong, and must always be right. But might does not make right.

God, if he were to exist, is a terrible being who is not worthy of our praise and love unless he truly cleans up his act. That means he needs to get rid of "hell", fix the world so that natural disasters don't exist to cause suffering, take away the human capability for sin*, and APOLOGIZE for his previous actions. After that, we can be on speaking terms again. And maybe we'd be able to make the relationship work this time.

But no, either god is a dick or he doesn't exist. Have fun suffering.

*Don't try that bullshit "there can be no good without evil" line. You can enjoy eating a cookie without having to know that a molted slab of rock is your alternative. Also don't try that whole "but free will is important" line, because 1) free will is over rated, and 2) human beings clearly do not have the free will that we feel we have. Research that on your own time; I don't want to get off topic.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Legendary Emerald

[Nepenthe]

Consider this a nitpick, but why in the world would God need to stop natural disasters when natural disasters are not evil? The Earth is not some living thing capable of conscious thought, so whatever happens on the planet as a result of its natural functions just happens, and we just pray (ha) that we are not in the way when Mother Nature strikes. This is not to say that natural disasters aren't tragic when people are harmed and killed in the process, but a tragedy is not inherently evil unless there is a conscious guiding hand in that process. I don't think an earthquake, tornado, tsunami, or even a natural viral outbreak is evidence of evil anymore than you would believe that some beautiful sunset is some proof of pure benevolence in the world. I've found this thinking quite silly.

[Legendary Emerald]

Consider this a nitpick, but why in the world would God need to stop natural disasters when natural disasters are not evil? The Earth is not some living thing capable of conscious thought, so whatever happens on the planet as a result of its natural functions just happens, and we just pray (ha) that we are not in the way when Mother Nature strikes. This is not to say that natural disasters aren't tragic when people are harmed and killed in the process, but a tragedy is not inherently evil unless there is a conscious guiding hand in that process. I don't think an earthquake, tornado, tsunami, or even a natural viral outbreak is evidence of evil anymore than you would believe that some beautiful sunset is some proof of pure benevolence in the world. I've found this thinking quite silly.

True, and I've edited my previous post to reflect this.

But the only reason natural disasters exist (from the perspective that god exists) is because he created a shitty planet. And if god is really "all powerful", then he could have created a better one. The fact that a plate rams into another plan, and that causes an earthquake, and someone falls down from a ladder and dies, is god's fault. Therefor, god has allowed a tragic act when it was within his power to stop it. Therefor, god's actions are evil, not the unthinking planet itself's.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I find issue with those who try to marginalize the Old Testament. It makes up more than half of the collected works of the bible's various writers for a reason. Let's look at god from the perspective that yes, he does exist.

Terrible, unconscionable things happen in the old testament through direct order of god himself. The god of the old testament is a bloody tyrant who wants all who do not believe in him to be killed, and forever separated from goodness for the rest of eternity. This same god is directly or indirectly responsible for the existence of all "evil" and non-belief in the world, due to either neglecting his subjects, or faulty programming when he created the human race.

In the New Testament, god tries to clean up his act a bit. He sends his son down to cleanse the world from the sin that he himself allowed to exist, and long story short, humans can now pray for forgiveness and if they really mean it, they get to not suffer for all eternity. Hooray.

But has god really redeemed himself of his former actions? Not truly. For one, sin still exists, because god allows it to exist, and an unpleasant afterlife exists for the same reason. The only reason why he would allow such taints on this world to exist are that he is a petty ruler who wants love and adoration without earning it, and thinks that installing fear in the hearts of men is a valid way of gaining respect and belief.

Secondly, and perhaps more tellingly, is that god never apologizes for his previous actions. He never says "oops, sorry I told you to kill all of the amalakites. My bad." And if you think that god never has need to apologize, by virtue of his being god, then you are essentially saying that just because he is in a position of high power, he is capable of doing no wrong, and must always be right. But might does not make right.

God, if he were to exist, is a terrible being who is not worthy of our praise and love unless he truly cleans up his act. That means he needs to get rid of "hell", take away all natural disasters and the human capability for sin*, and APOLOGIZE for his previous actions. After that, we can be on speaking terms again. And maybe we'd be able to make the relationship work this time.

But no, either god is a dick or he doesn't exist. Have fun suffering.

*Don't try that bullshit "there can be no good without evil" line. You can enjoy eating a cookie without having to know that a molted slab of rock is your alternative. Also don't try that whole "but free will is important" line, because 1) free will is over rated, and 2) human beings clearly do not have the free will that we feel we have. Research that on your own time; I don't want to get off topic.

Not to be an insensitive asshole, for I am woefully ignorant of most religions, but I wonder:

If there are many other gods, and not just one god as most monotheistic religions are based on, would you say god is akin to that of the Unfavorite? That he/she/it can only feel loved by forcing lesser beings (Us) to loving him/her/it? It's an insensitive question, I know, but I do wonder.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Enigmatus

[Legendary Emerald]

Not to be an insensitive asshole, for I am woefully ignorant of most religions, but I wonder:

If there are many other gods, and not just one god as most monotheistic religions are based on, would you say god is akin to that of the Unfavorite? That he/she/it can only feel loved by forcing lesser beings (Us) to loving him/her/it? It's an insensitive question, I know, but I do wonder.

Spoiler tags just because you used them. That's a pretty interesting idea right there, but I'm not sure I agree. The god of the bible is less about forcing people to love him, and more expecting them to automatically. He's more a petulant, spoiled child. "Man, I created these humans, and they don't spend every second of every day worshiping me! I'm gonna burn a bush and scare a murderer into my servitude, and then I'll make it rain locusts, and frogs, and then everyone will love me!". Scare tactics are part of his repertoire, but it seems he'd rather just sit on his ass and not do anything; an entitled little bastard, ain't he?

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Spoiler tags just because you used them. That's a pretty interesting idea right there, but I'm not sure I agree. The god of the bible is less about forcing people to love him, and more expecting them to automatically. He's more a petulant, spoiled child. "Man, I created these humans, and they don't spend every second of every day worshiping me! I'm gonna burn a bush and scare a murderer into my servitude, and then I'll make it rain locusts, and frogs, and then everyone will love me!". Scare tactics are part of his repertoire, but it seems he'd rather just sit on his ass and not do anything; an entitled little bastard, ain't he?

Well I put it in spoilers so people can choose to open it, or close it if they get offended. but to answer your spoilers:

So he's a spoiled brat with reality warping powers?