How Christian Fundamentalists Plan to Teach Genocide to Schoolchildren

[The Weeb with No Name]

I actually cry out against Him on occasion, so I guess I'll be chilling in the V.I.P. room.

[Diogenes]

I have always been taught a doctrine of love and tolerance

Actually people who are unaware of Christianity are sentenced to hell.

"Love and tolerance", huh.

[LikeClockWerk]

I was taught love and tolerance toward other people. I respect your beliefs and idealism and choose not to force mine upon someone else. Ultimately none can make it to Heaven and God except through absolute faith in Christ, this means those who know not of Christ and are of the age of accountability will go to hell. This puts great hastening on the spreading of the Word of God.

"Love and tolerance", huh.

I feel as though this was a direct attack at me. if it's not, it's whatever. Listen I'm only telling it how it was taught to me. We're supposed to spread the word of God either directly or indirectly by living a life of Christ-Likeness.

Ultimately those people going door to door bothering genuinely fear for the souls of those who do not know of Christ and they feel it is all they can do. Some of us are not given the opportunity to travel the globe, lacking money and what not, so they go to the next best thing. I understand there is some annoyance involved for those whom do not like Christianity, but these people fear for you and wish to try and save you as they see it.

We are obligated to lead people to Christ either one way or another. I myself don't travel the globe or go door to door annoying people, but I have my own ways of doing it where people are less annoyed.

Before it does happen though, don't make me out to be an enemy. I have always been an advocate for freedom of thought. Believe what you want to believe. I choose to believe this way. I myself am a Theistic Evolutionist, looked down upon by many from both sides of the argument. I'm just giving you the gist of what I was taught. I hesitate speaking in these threads because in the past I have been made out as an enemy when all I'm doing is providing information.

[Diogenes]

Ultimately none can make it to Heaven and God except through absolute faith in Christ, this means those who know not of Christ and are of the age of accountability will go to hell.

You realize this makes your god a monster, right? He sends innocent people to be tortured for all eternity for not worshiping him, many of whom never even had the chance to do so.

Listen I'm only telling it how it was taught to me.

Instead of just regurgitating what you've been taught, consider the implications of what you're saying.

[TheGerkuman]

Christians would argue that people are flinging themselves into hell instead of God sending them there.

[JezMM]

I was taught love and tolerance toward other people. I respect your beliefs and idealism and choose not to force mine upon someone else. Ultimately none can make it to Heaven and God except through absolute faith in Christ, this means those who know not of Christ and are of the age of accountability will go to hell. This puts great hastening on the spreading of the Word of God.

Yeah, it's this sort of belief that makes me mark myself as a "cautious" Christian. I find it too hard to believe in such a horrible, selfish individual being the creator of the universe, let alone even entertaining the thought of worshipping such a horrifying concept.

I mean, what about say, people that are born deaf and blind, yet survive to enjoy their simple lives? They deserve to be eternally punished for... what exactly?

You could not love someone who did that. I can't see any sane reason to love a God who does that for any reason other than out of fear of the alternative. And that is not the way the all-loving God I believe in works.

[Diogenes]

Christians would argue that people are flinging themselves into hell instead of God sending them there.

And they'd be wrong.

First off, regardless of what they'd be saying now, in every variation that I've seen, god is the one in charge. He's the omnipotent one, after all. Even if he wasn't the one actually casting people into the lake of fire (which, again, is something I usually only hear when people are trying to weasel out of this situation), there is literally nothing that could stop him from bringing someone into heaven. If nothing else he's damned by his inaction.

That said, in Mr. Full's version, his criteria are fucked to hell and back (no pun intended) in the first place. Rather than rewarding the good and punishing the bad (which is questionable enough as it is, having this Super-Santa judging everything you do and putting you on either the Eternal-Bliss list or the Burn-In-Hell-Forever list), he's basing it entirely on whether or not you worship him. That is literally evil dictator shit; reward those who kiss up to you, execute any who oppose you. And we're not just talking about people who have actively denied god, but even people that had no chance of being Christians in the first place. I mean, before Columbus came, did literally every Native American go to hell, even though there was literally no chance of them knowing Christianity even existed? There's no way to put the blame for that on them.

[Dr. Mechano]

He sends innocent people to be tortured for all eternity for not worshiping him, many of whom never even had the chance to do so.

You have to realize that according to our beliefs, nobody is "innocent" by God's standards. This is the case whether they believe or not; By God's perfect standard, I fall miserably short, and can say that I deserve Hell for my sins.

Now, this isn't something I want to happen to anyone. There is a distinction between the Christian who simply recognizes Hell for what it is versus the extremist sort of Christian who actively wants non-believers to go there (Westboro Baptist for example). I don't want people to go to Hell, even though I do believe in its existence, and even though I do believe that everyone that has ever lived deserves damnation by God's standard of complete perfection.

My belief in Hell's existence - as well as my belief that those who do not accept Christ ultimately end up there - does not mean that I smugly look down on people who don't believe. I know that I am not the least bit better than anyone - believer or not - and I believe I deserve Hell as much as everyone else.

I wouldn't precisely say that I'm saved because I worship God (although I do); I believe my salvation is by grace - apart from any works or good merit on my part - through faith in Jesus Christ, and his sacrifice for my sins. So I want to change and do good and avoid sin, but not in order to be saved, so much as because I am. I still sin, fail, and fall short regularly, and it is a constant reminder that I am not - nor can I ever be - good enough to merit God's favor.

It is not therefore worship that is God's condition for eternal life, but belief in and acceptance of Christ's deity, sacrifice, and resurrection, as well as an understanding of one's own lack of favor before God on their own merits.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Dr. Mechano

[JezMM]

Man, you think you're safe and sound in your beliefs and then get involved in a discussion like this that makes you really wonder and doubt what you take for granted.

I don't think anyone deserves hell. Hell is eternal punishment. That is a ridiculous concept. Hitler doesn't deserve hell. Someone could rape and kill everyone I love and they wouldn't deserve hell (even if I might believe they should in a fit of anger at the time). They deserve to be punished as severely as their crimes warrant, but that is not eternal punishment. Maybe a bazillion years of punishment for Hilter, for both the pain and suffering he caused people while they were alive, and all the life they lost when they died by his hands, but that still doesn't add up to eternal punishment.

Just... ugh. I hope to the all-loving God I believe in that the all-hating-until-we-promise-to-love-him-forever-and-ever God you guys believe in doesn't exist.

I could not live with myself worshipping such a being. Just... no. The mere concept stresses me out severely. That's not what I'd call the symptoms of entrusting ones life to an all-loving diety.

Edited June 7, 2012 by JezMM

[Diogenes]

You have to realize that according to our beliefs, nobody is "innocent" by God's standards.

This doesn't really help your case. It supposes a god whose standards are so utterly alien to humanity that it's useless to apply them, and yet he does anyway. In the best case this is like a parent brutally beating a child who doesn't know any better. But I'm more inclined to say that your god's perfect morality is neither perfect nor moral. Any standards that would make all of humanity worthy of hell are incredibly, unspeakably broken and not worthy of any respect.

This is the case whether they believe or not; By God's perfect standard, I fall miserably short, and can say that I deserve Hell for my sins.

See, this, I hate this. I hate when religion makes people think less of themselves. Mechano, I only really know you through BSing about Sonic, but I believe you are a genuinely good dude. You do not deserve hell. And anyone who says otherwise can go fuck themselves, god included.

[Yoko/葉子]

Thank you, you probably said it better than I ever could.

Indeed, people make rediculous censors and lie about the intentions of a religion A LOT

This doesn't really help your case. It supposes a god whose standards are so utterly alien to humanity that it's useless to apply them, and yet he does anyway. In the best case this is like a parent brutally beating a child who doesn't know any better. But I'm more inclined to say that your god's perfect morality is neither perfect nor moral. Any standards that would make all of humanity worthy of hell are incredibly, unspeakably broken and not worthy of any respect.

See, this, I hate this. I hate when religion makes people think less of themselves. Mechano, I only really know you through BSing about Sonic, but I believe you are a genuinely good dude. You do not deserve hell. And anyone who says otherwise can go fuck themselves, god included.

That's how I felt when my grandma died, betrayed and unimportant by God, I am not mad about anymore though.

[JezMM]

I just want to second Diogenes' second comment there. Out of all the people who I've met online who I've never actually known on a personal level, you're one of the absoloute nicest for sure Dr Mechano. I've known you are religious, strongly so, for a long time, but honestly this is the first time a post from you about it has actually genuinely disturbed me.

[Mono]

Was at church today to pray for my family. Don't care what anyone has to say about it.

[Diogenes]

Really? Because it sure sounds like you're fishing for comments.

[Mono]

I said I didn't care, so any comments on my faith are going to be ignored by me. No responses.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Mono

[Carbo]

Then don't fucking flame bait.

[Mono]

Was not a fucking "flame bait". I told everyone I didn't care, and all posts about my faith will be ignored. I was just putting in my 50 cents. Geez.

edit: and I don't do religion debates, they always end badly go nowhere, and no one's mind is changed.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Mono

[JezMM]

Was not a fucking "flame bait". I told everyone I didn't care, and all posts about my faith will be ignored. I was just putting in my 50 cents. Geez.

edit: and I don't do religion debates, they always end badly.

To be fair your post was completely off-topic from the current discussion anyway, so if you didn't want comments on it, why did you post it? This is a discussion thread after all, not the status update box. If every religious member popped in here to give an update on their latest bit of faith-related activities it'd be somewhat cluttered, and of course utterly unrelated to the topic at hand. I mean I know we've moved on from the original topic quite a bit but the lack of mod intervention makes it pretty clear the current discussion is worthwhile enough to justify it.

I hope this doesn't derail it, I'm still hoping for response from Mechano and/or Full-84.

EDIT:

and I don't do religion debates, they always end badly go nowhere, and no one's mind is changed.

Usually this is the case, but in this instance I just want to understand better how some people can worship a God they believe to be... well, rather scary to me. And hopefully something with a little more substance and personal meaning than just "because I do", "because he's God" or "because the Bible says so".

Edited June 8, 2012 by JezMM

[Mono]

Sorry if I derailed, did not mean too.

edit: As to why God was/is an asshole, I can't answer without my thoughts going blank. But I'll be first to admit, in the Old Testament he was a dick.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Mono

[SuperStingray]

I don't get eternal damnation; it's almost literally beating a dead horse- God doesn't need to punish us if there's nothing to learn from it. Besides, after a certain point you'll almost certainly get used to it, whether its reward or punishment; punishment only feels bad if the condition is worse than a given "norm;" with eternity being the idea it is, you'll almost certainly forget what life was like before it and accept it. Same with people in heaven; eventually you'll get used to life being paradise and it will no longer please you. The only way for heaven and hell to actually mean anything is for the inhabitants to switch places every now and then, pretty much eliminating the point of both altogether.

[Mono]

I found this interesting thing about hell. They look at both sides of the argument: http://bible.org/article/what-bible-says-about-hell

[Diogenes]

That doesn't really look at both sides so much as it repeats how utterly horrible the concept of hell is, and then insists that it is definitely like that and god is totally justified because Bible.

[The Weeb with No Name]

Stingray, you are epic. Your posts always brings to bear a thoughtful point.

[Dr. Mechano]

I hope this doesn't derail it, I'm still hoping for response from Mechano and/or Full-84.

Usually this is the case, but in this instance I just want to understand better how some people can worship a God they believe to be... well, rather scary to me. And hopefully something with a little more substance and personal meaning than just "because I do", "because he's God" or "because the Bible says so".

The three hypothetical reasons you gave don't sufficiently cover it, but they're related.

When it comes to the concept of Hell seeming unfair, or God's perfect standard seeming unreasonable, I'll point to this as the basis for my response:

"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." - Proverbs 14:12

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one." Romans 3:10

"For the wisdom of the world is foolishness before God..." 1 Corinthians 3:19 (Excerpt)

(Edit: I dunno what happened with the text backgrounds here. My bad.)

This is a consistent theme in the Bible; That man's standards, ideals, and morality are ultimately flawed, and that humankind's standards are so contrary to God's, that people generally do not accept or understand them. Conventional human wisdom, for example, says, "Just be a generally good person, and that's enough." God - by contrast - says, "You aren't good enough, for you are sinful and imperfect."

I suppose my stance is that it ultimately doesn't matter if God's judgment seems fair by human standards, for they most certainly are fair by his own, and he - being perfect and all-powerful - is the one whose standards ultimately matter when it comes to how mankind is judged.

What I'm saying is that humanity is so flawed that even the concept of us being fallen and unworthy of God's mercy is typically lost on us; We like to think that we're good enough, but ultimately, no one but God himself truly is. This is why I need Jesus; My own "goodness" simply isn't anywhere near good enough to get me to Heaven, and it never will be.

My reply is less "It's just because the Bible says so" and more along the lines of, "God's standards are difficult to accept or understand to someone who doesn't believe, because he's perfect and we are flawed, and therefore have completely contrary standards ourselves."

Edited June 8, 2012 by Dr. Mechano

[SchemingMinor]

The three hypothetical reasons you gave don't sufficiently cover it, but they're related.

When it comes to the concept of Hell seeming unfair, or God's perfect standard seeming unreasonable, I'll point to this as the basis for my response:

"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." - Proverbs 14:12

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one." Romans 3:10

"For the wisdom of the world is foolishness before God..." 1 Corinthians 3:19 (Excerpt)

(Edit: I dunno what happened with the text backgrounds here. My bad.)

This is a consistent theme in the Bible; That man's standards, ideals, and morality are ultimately flawed, and that humankind's standards are so contrary to God's, that people generally do not accept or understand them. Conventional human wisdom, for example, says, "Just be a generally good person, and that's enough." God - by contrast - says, "You aren't good enough, for you are sinful and imperfect."

I suppose my stance is that it ultimately doesn't matter if God's judgment seems fair by human standards, for they most certainly are fair by his own, and he - being perfect and all-powerful - is the one whose standards ultimately matter when it comes to how mankind is judged.

What I'm saying is that humanity is so flawed that even the concept of us being fallen and unworthy of God's mercy is typically lost on us; We like to think that we're good enough, but ultimately, no one but God himself truly is. This is why I need Jesus; My own "goodness" simply isn't anywhere near good enough to get me to Heaven, and it never will be.

My reply is less "It's just because the Bible says so" and more along the lines of, "God's standards are difficult to accept or understand to someone who doesn't believe, because he's perfect and we are flawed, and therefore have completely contrary standards ourselves."

Alright, then if God plans to judge the very humans that he/it/whatever created, then why did it give people free will to make those very choices that disappoint it//her/him instead of allowing the creations to conform to the same very ideals and morals as the creator?