Has Sonic become a spotlight stealer?

[Marcello]

Yes, the main protagonist stealing the spotlight from a minor character, stop the presses.

In other words, you have no argument against what I said and are now just repeating the thesis statement. This is going in circles now.

Who cares if it's sad or not, it's a completely legit excuse, if they want to put all of their time and effort into Sonic, then so be it as he's the only they're required to work on and make better. I mean I understand the sentiment the rest of the cast are getting shafted, but the protagonist of anything, by law is required to have the most focus, it's like complaining that grass is green.

It's not. It doesn't take this long to get gameplay right. They've decided on a direction that they've stuck to for the past 3 games, so they obviously think they've gotten it right. This is not an excuse to why they aren't adding more characters. There are other excuses, but this isn't one.

I never said the others should get more focus than Sonic. He definitely should get the most focus in generaI, but sometimes other characters need some more focus, too.

Let's take Unleashed as an example. The focus was on Sonic, Chip and their relationship, as I've stated before. However some scenes were clearly focused on Chip, like when he found out he was Light Gaia. Change the focus on those cutscenes to Sonic and they don't work nearly as well. Or Adventure. You could play through other characters stories, that focused on their growth (Tails and Amy becoming more independant etc), but ultimately intertwined and led to Sonic's story. Adventure 2 takes that a step further, by forcing you to play as them, but every character is needed to continue, (A good example being the desert stages; Tails finds the entrance, Knuckles looks for the keys to get in and Sonic does the rest) but the story focuses on Sonic and Shadow and leads to the finale where all of the characters do their part to reach to the shrine to stop the Ark from falling.

Now to Colors and Generations. In Colors Tails purpose is the translator, that doesn't actually work until the end, so exposition. Yacker is a complete blank slate (Though the DS version gave him a nice scene at the end), nor does the game build his, Tails and Sonic's relationship. There's never any focus on him, until Tails mentions they haven't seen him for a while, and even that is little. The payoff at the end for saving him doesn't feel real. Generations just had Tails and Tails being used for exposition and that's all. There was good dialogue between Sonic and Tails in both games, but ultimately Tails was pretty unimportant.

[Old dead account]

Let's say other characters do become playable next game. How to make it so that there is the least amount of complaining? My ideal usage of ther characters would be to have them do a few plot related things in the cutscenes and to become playable similarly to sonic like the classics after the game is finished. But having them ALL playable like that seems like an unrealistic thing sega would do. If there is no playable Shadow and Silver but Knuckles and Tails are(or vice versa) there would bitching that Sega is neglecting the *insert era here*fans and bending over for the *insert era here*fags. How could they realisticaly implement other characters then?

Also, genre roulettes can fuck right off. I'd rather have more sola sonica than suffer through more monotunus treasure hunting or repetitive mechs just for the sake of playing as tails and knuckles again.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don't think any of us want to go genre roulette.

I think a better comparison would be like Batman Arkham City in which you can play as 4 different characters in the game, and while each have their own unique abilities none of them feel like you're playing something entirely different: Batman is the only one (that I've played) to be able to glide, Catwoman climbs up buildings and can walk on certain ceilings upside down, and Nightwing has his electric Kali Sticks to stun large groups of foes at once, but they all play on the same basic control scheme.

Want a platforming example? Okay then: Megaman ZX Advent (Sean, if you're reading this STFU ) had no less than 16 different character forms absorbed from boss fights wrapped up into one character that you played. In regards to character focus beyond gameplay, you had the main character, the previous ZX's main character, the different biometals, the two co-dragons, and the main villain himself along with other important minors. That's no less than several right there.

Not hard for Sonic to do right if the people behind the series were willing to go the extra mile with the characters than they are now.

[Kuzu]

In other words, you have no argument against what I said and are now just repeating the thesis statement. This is going in circles now.

The argument that it's stupid to get mad at the main character for having more spotlight than a minor character, what's so hard to understand about what I said?

It's not. It doesn't take this long to get gameplay right. They've decided on a direction that they've stuck to for the past 3 games, so they obviously think they've gotten it right. This is not an excuse to why they aren't adding more characters. There are other excuses, but this isn't one.

It takes as long as the developers feel they need to, and not what the fans want.

I never said the others should get more focus than Sonic. He definitely should get the most focus in generaI, but sometimes other characters need some more focus, too.

This really depends on how any given game is written, depending on the plot: Either no one but Sonic is needed, or you need a bigger cast.

Let's take Unleashed as an example. The focus was on Sonic, Chip and their relationship, as I've stated before. However some scenes were clearly focused on Chip, like when he found out he was Light Gaia. Change the focus on those cutscenes to Sonic and they don't work nearly as well.

Because the main plot and theme of the game is finding Chip's memories, and who he is, so obviously there's going to be a cutscene or two focusing on that.

Or Adventure. You could play through other characters stories, that focused on their growth (Tails and Amy becoming more independant etc), but ultimately intertwined and led to Sonic's story.

But you're more or less forced to play through these character's stories; yes Sonic has the most stages out of anybody, but he's still largely 1/6th of the game, and I hate being forced to play as another character in order to get 100% completion, I didn't really mind it until I got to Big's story which shows the problem with forcing a character on somebody to begin with.

Adventure 2 takes that a step further, by forcing you to play as them, but every character is needed to continue, (A good example being the desert stages; Tails finds the entrance, Knuckles looks for the keys to get in and Sonic does the rest) but the story focuses on Sonic and Shadow and leads to the finale where all of the characters do their part to reach to the shrine to stop the Ark from falling.

But there is still a significant gap in which you actually you play as Sonic; five stages between Green Forest and Pyramid Cave, even if the other characters were needed, that's still a pretty long time to not be playing as Sonic, and like you said, it's forced upon you to continue.

Now to Colors and Generations. In Colors Tails purpose is the translator, that doesn't actually work until the end, so exposition. Yacker is a complete blank slate (Though the DS version gave him a nice scene at the end), nor does the game build his, Tails and Sonic's relationship. There's never any focus on him, until Tails mentions they haven't seen him for a while, and even that is little. The payoff at the end for saving him doesn't feel real. Generations just had Tails and Tails being used for exposition and that's all. There was good dialogue between Sonic and Tails in both games, but ultimately Tails was pretty unimportant.

But notice how you're not required to play as anybody else other than Sonic, you're not being forced another character in order to continue.

Basically it boils down to who's needed or not; In games like the Adventure series, and Unleashed, yeah other characters were needed for the plot to progress, but the drawback is that you're forced to play as them in order to progress, something which is generally frowned upon; nobody wants to be forced to play as anybody if they don't want to, especially if their gameplay sucks.

Meanwhile in games like Colors/Generations, trim out everyone not named Sonic, and the focus remains primarily on him, you're removing the problem of forced gameplay, and letting everyone play as Sonic 100% of the time, but then you're neglecting the rest of the cast.

I can't really think of a solution other than just neglecting the plot in general; that way you can use whoever you want, and nobody will complain, and they can be optional so you're not forced to play as them.

I don't think any of us want to go genre roulette.

I think a better comparison would be like Batman Arkham City in which you can play as 4 different characters in the game, and while each have their own unique abilities none of them feel like you're playing something entirely different: Batman is the only one (that I've played) to be able to glide, Catwoman climbs up buildings and can walk on certain ceilings upside down, and Nightwing has his electric Kali Sticks to stun large groups of foes at once, but they all play on the same basic control scheme.

Want a platforming example? Okay then: Megaman ZX Advent (Sean, if you're reading this STFU ) had no less than 16 different character forms absorbed from boss fights wrapped up into one character that you played. In regards to character focus beyond gameplay, you had the main character, the previous ZX's main character, the different biometals, the two co-dragons, and the main villain himself along with other important minors. That's no less than several right there.

Not hard for Sonic to do right if the people behind the series were willing to go the extra mile with the characters than they are now.

So then what happens when story is a factor? People don't just want the other characters to be playable, they want them to be important to the story again too like back in the Adventure days, so how can you make other characters playable, while still retaining their plot importance and not forcing you to play as them?

[Marcello]

The argument that it's stupid to get mad at the main character for having more spotlight than a minor character, what's so hard to understand about what I said?

I understood what you said. You apparently ignored my original point, though.

It takes as long as the developers feel they need to, and not what the fans want.

Ignoring my point again.

This really depends on how any given game is written, depending on the plot: Either no one but Sonic is needed, or you need a bigger cast.

This is basically what we're discussing.

Because the main plot and theme of the game is finding Chip's memories, and who he is, so obviously there's going to be a cutscene or two focusing on that.

Pretty much my point.

But you're more or less forced to play through these character's stories; yes Sonic has the most stages out of anybody, but he's still largely 1/6th of the game, and I hate being forced to play as another character in order to get 100% completion, I didn't really mind it until I got to Big's story which shows the problem with forcing a character on somebody to begin with.

But there is still a significant gap in which you actually you play as Sonic; five stages between Green Forest and Pyramid Cave, even if the other characters were needed, that's still a pretty long time to not be playing as Sonic, and like you said, it's forced upon you to continue.

But notice how you're not required to play as anybody else other than Sonic, you're not being forced another character in order to continue.

Basically it boils down to who's needed or not; In games like the Adventure series, and Unleashed, yeah other characters were needed for the plot to progress, but the drawback is that you're forced to play as them in order to progress, something which is generally frowned upon; nobody wants to be forced to play as anybody if they don't want to, especially if their gameplay sucks.

Meanwhile in games like Colors/Generations, trim out everyone not named Sonic, and the focus remains primarily on him, you're removing the problem of forced gameplay, and letting everyone play as Sonic 100% of the time, but then you're neglecting the rest of the cast.

You don't necesarily need them playable to have focus on them. Remember how I used Chip as an example?

If you want them playable, make them have their own stories connected to Sonic's, but make it so that you can complete everything in Sonic's story by just playing as him. Simple.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

So then what happens when story is a factor? People don't just want the other characters to be playable, they want them to be important to the story again too like back in the Adventure days, so how can you make other characters playable, while still retaining their plot importance and not forcing you to play as them?

Making their stories optional would be a must for one. It's like with the Catwoman example for Arkham City, she's not required to play, but she's optional for the most part while still having her own story in the game. Give them roles and substance to them being their and not just around for the sake of being around.

I'd say like SA1, but without requiring the other characters to be playable. Completing the game as Sonic should be the only requirement, while other characters can still be available with their own stories to play through.

Edited June 18, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

Making their stories optional would be a must for one. It's like with the Catwoman example for Arkham City, she's not required to play, but she's optional for the most part while still having her own story in the game. Give them roles and substance to them being their and not just around for the sake of being around.

I'd say like SA1, but without requiring the other characters to be playable. Completing the game as Sonic should be the only requirement, while other characters can still be available with their own stories to play through.

That could work if, like you said, they have their own stories, but what if they're meant to be apart of the main plot along with Sonic?

Like for instance, in you scenario: Ok, Sonic has the A plot of beating Eggman, and whatever and say, the Chaotix have some kind of B plot disconnected from the A plot that you could play at anytime, but is ultimately not a requirement for beating the game. Cool.

So let's say in another game has Sonic, and Tails as the A plot against Eggman, and eventually Knuckles gets involved as well, so how does everyone get a piece of the pie then?

[Old dead account]

But who would be the playable ones though? I don't think sega would take the time to make SONICTAILSKNUCKLESEGGMANAMYSHADOWROUGECREAMSILVERBLAZEBIGOMEGAVECTORESPIOCHARMY all playable in one game. If you pick one over the other half the fanbase will cry neglect. And now that I think about it, most reviewers tend to give points for classic characters and dock points for modern, and hell even for having more characters than Sonic and Eggman

[UltDevilDoom]

Sonic Chronicles did a good job of pacing the roster of playable characters.

[Kuzu]

But who would be the playable ones though? I don't think sega would take the time to make SONICTAILSKNUCKLESEGGMANAMYSHADOWROUGECREAMSILVERBLAZEBIGOMEGAVECTORESPIOCHARMY all playable in one game. If you pick one over the other half the fanbase will cry neglect. And now that I think about it, most reviewers tend to give points for classic characters and dock points for modern, and hell even for having more characters than Sonic and Eggman

That's exactly the problem; I know it's relatively impossible to please everyone, but people will bitch if their favorite characters aren't around, or if they feel are neglected.

Either people need to start dealing with change, or Sonic Team are going to do something stupid, something's gotta give.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That could work if, like you said, they have their own stories, but what if they're meant to be apart of the main plot along with Sonic?

Well…they'd still be optional. Yeah, they can interact with Sonic in the main plot, but they're not the one's the player is controlling.

Like for instance, in you scenario: Ok, Sonic has the A plot of beating Eggman, and whatever and say, the Chaotix have some kind of B plot disconnected from the A plot that you could play at anytime, but is ultimately not a requirement for beating the game. Cool.

Actually that's completely different from what I was thinking.

Basically, Sonic has plot A of beating Eggman, while say Rouge has plot B of spying on Eggman's forces. Rouge's plot B is very much interconnected to Sonic's plot A, and she interacts with him in either plot, but you don't have to complete Rouge's story if you choose not to.

Basically think of how interconnected everyone was with SA1, but the player can choose to ignore any character they don't want to play in the story; they'll still meet the character, but they'll do so on Sonic's time or whomever character they happen to be in control.

So let's say in another game has Sonic, and Tails as the A plot against Eggman, and eventually Knuckles gets involved as well, so how does everyone get a piece of the pie then?

While Sonic and Tails are squaring off against Eggman every time they meet, Knuckles would be off doing is own thing until he crosses paths with the two characters. Then at different points he will either choose to team up, stay on his own path, or even fight the characters until everything culminates at the end of the game, but the player is still in control of the first character they chose from start to finish.

But who would be the playable ones though?

The ones who made the roster, that's who. If say Knuckles or Shadow were left out of the game, then they'll just have to sit out until the next game or so decides to bring them in. You don't have to put every character in one game.

Edited June 18, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

Well…they'd still be optional. Yeah, they can interact with Sonic in the main plot, but they're not the one's the player is controlling.

Actually that's completely different from what I was thinking.

Basically, Sonic has plot A of beating Eggman, while say Rouge has plot B of spying on Eggman's forces. Rouge's plot B is very much interconnected to Sonic's plot A, and she interacts with him in either plot, but you don't have to complete Rouge's story if you choose not to.

Basically think of how interconnected everyone was with SA1, but the player can choose to ignore any character they don't want to play in the story; they'll still meet the character, but they'll do so on Sonic's time or whomever character they happen to be in control.

While Sonic and Tails are squaring off against Eggman every time they meet, Knuckles would be off doing is own thing until he crosses paths with the two characters. Then at different points he will either choose to team up, stay on his own path, or even fight the characters until everything culminates at the end of the game, but the player is still in control of the first character they chose from start to finish.

I see, but remember in Sa1 you needed to complete everyone's story in order to get 100% completion, so in order for the game to not be forced upon you, Sonic's story would have to be the only one you beat to complete the entire game, and after you beat Sonic's story you can unlock everyone else's and beat their's if you choose to do so, but you're not required if you already beaten the game with Sonic.

IT'S FUCKING GENIUS.

[Dr. Mechano]

I think it's more because Shadow, of all people, is cheering Sonic on. It's just so out of character.

Shadow's cheered Sonic on in other games. Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes... I mean, in SA2, he outright calls Sonic "the ultimate lifeform," which from him is a pretty hefty compliment.

Shadow's not an embittered angsty fellow anymore. He resolved his issues, promptly got a case of easy amnesia and got his issues back, and then resolved them again, but now he's finally a normal and well-adjusted guy. What's so out of character about encouraging an ally to succeed?

I mean, I don't even like Shadow, but I'll take actual character development over him stagnating in continued unsolvable isolation any day.

[Johnny Boy]

Sonic Chronicles did a good job of pacing the roster of playable characters.

That's because it was an RPG. And it's a lot easier to have multiple playable characters in an RPG than a platformer.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I see, but remember in Sa1 you needed to complete everyone's story in order to get 100% completion, so in order for the game to not be forced upon you, Sonic's story would have to be the only one you beat to complete the entire game, and after you beat Sonic's story you can unlock everyone else's and beat their's if you choose to do so, but you're not required if you already beaten the game with Sonic.

Actually, 100% completion is just standard game design, though it should only be where you complete EVERYTHING in the game up to the optional content. But that option's only reserved for those who are completionists and want to take the time to do all the games challenges.

However, you shouldn't need 100% to beat the final story. You just need whatever upgrades are necessary for your chosen character to proceed through their story.

[Nepenthe]

.... I have advocated for optional character stories and for only having Sonic's story mandatory for full completion of the campaign as a solution to this so-called problem several times before. Goddammit, why does no one in the Sonic forum ever bother listening to me?

But to answer the original question of the thread, no; it's kind of difficult to steal the spotlight in your own self-titled series now isn't it? But I think that's the wrong question to ask. There's nothing wrong with Sonic being the main focus in his own series, but I don't think this status as a main character should come at the extreme exclusion of everyone else like we've seen for the past four years. Considering the overarching themes of friendship, teamwork, and loyalty that the series has decided to tote, this set-up isn't really all that optimal even though it's a perfectly sensible direction. So yeah, Sonic's not stealing the spotlight and it's arguably not possible for him to, but this Sonic-only stint nonetheless blows anyway.

[Kuzu]

Shadow's cheered Sonic on in other games. Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes... I mean, in SA2, he outright calls Sonic "the ultimate lifeform," which from him is a pretty hefty compliment.

In Sa2, he's actively fighting alongside Sonic while complimenting him, and in Heroes he didn't even know who he was, and even then he still participated in weakening Metal Sonic for Sonic to have his chance, in Generations he didn't do anything to try and help, at all. That's a problem.

Maybe if he said something along the lines of: "Don't make me clean up your mess" or something like that, then fine.

Shadow's not an embittered angsty fellow anymore. He resolved his issues, promptly got a case of easy amnesia and got his issues back, and then resolved them again, but now he's finally a normal and well-adjusted guy. What's so out of character about encouraging an ally to succeed?

The fact that he is sitting on the sidelines, and not helping Sonic himself. Shadow may have gotten over his issues, but he's still a an arrogant individual who would never let anyone handle a job he couldn't do, least of all Sonic, a person whom he considers an equal. Just because he's nicer doesn't mean he'd leave a task to someone else if he was perfectly capable of handling it himself.

I mean, I don't even like Shadow, but I'll take actual character development over him stagnating in continued unsolvable isolation any day.

So wanting him to actually participate in a fight, instead of just being a cheerleader from the sidelines counts as character regression?

Edited June 18, 2012 by The Batman

[Diogenes]

Shadow's cheered Sonic on in other games. Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes... I mean, in SA2, he outright calls Sonic "the ultimate lifeform," which from him is a pretty hefty compliment.

I think the problem is more that it's a really cheesy and generic cheer. There's no sense of the relationship between the characters. And Sonic and Shadow should have a relationship besides the most generic vaguely allied heroes sort of thing.

[Kuzu]

.... I have advocated for optional character stories and for only having Sonic's story mandatory for full completion of the campaign as a solution to this so-called problem several times before. Goddammit, why does no one in the Sonic forum ever bother listening to me?

.

....Uhhh.......I don't know.

[Chaos Warp]

It's kinda hard to Sonic to steal the spotlight in his own series. I do agree that the other characters need some spotlight though however.

So basically what everyone else said. Why am I always late to the party?

Edited June 18, 2012 by Chaos Warp

[UltDevilDoom]

Which bothers people more? The fact that Shadow is cheering Sonic on (which is really out of character), or just Shadow's current (and absolutely terrible) voice actor?

Either way, Sega needs to find a way to bring Shadow back to the series again without him completely taking over the series again. And if he shows a return to form, that will be a difficult task. Shadow is too important and popular to get rid of, but Sega must bring him and others back...in a good way.

Sonic just can't hog all the spotlight like has been doing recently. I got tired of it fast, Sega.

Edited June 19, 2012 by UltDevilDoom

[Diogenes]

I think there are perfectly reasonable ways to write Shadow encouraging Sonic. They are not such bitter rivals that Shadow would never say anything positive about Sonic.

[Kuzu]

It's not that Shadow encouraging Sonic is what bothered me, it's actually the line itself: "You got this Sonic" it just doesn't sound like something Shadow would say, if he was more sarcastic and arrogant about it then yeah.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

.... I have advocated for optional character stories and for only having Sonic's story mandatory for full completion of the campaign as a solution to this so-called problem several times before. Goddammit, why does no one in the Sonic forum ever bother listening to me?

But I've always listened to you on these things ever since your name was BlitzShadow1.

[Coral]

It's not that Shadow encouraging Sonic is what bothered me, it's actually the line itself: "You got this Sonic" it just doesn't sound like something Shadow would say, if he was more sarcastic and arrogant about it then yeah.