The Good and the Bad: Shadow the Hedgehog

[Kuzu]

Shadow was divisive even before ShtH. ShtH just made him even moreso.

I thought he was still generally liked until he displaced Sonic in his game.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Something tells me that you are prejudiced to Shadow the Hedgehog. EIther that or you really hate it that much.

Dude, it's anything but prejudice because I already told you why I don't like it due to the mess it caused in the franchise. Sonic 06 just manages to be worse than it. That being said, I defend things that show promise, and despite somethings being promising in ShTH (like the vehicles, as bad as they were done) that game has a lot more bad than good.

1. It came when Sega was really shitting on the franchise.

No it was the start of when Sega was shitting on the franchise, even worse because they weren't realizing it at the time.

2. Despite all the hate that it recieved, Shadow is still popular. If it had been any other character besides Sonic, it would have been the kiss of death.

FUCKING BULLSHIT!!! And I can't believe you had the nerve to call me prejudice after saying that.

Had it been any other character, there's no fucking way you would have known how bad it would be because there is no fucking way any of us would have known how they would have made it for any other character. They could have made a game for Knuckles, Tails, or Blaze and it could have been good; hell had they not made this game the way they did, ShTH might be seen in a more positive light.

And this is even more bullshit because Shadow's game was very close to the kiss of death for the series only outdone by Sonic 06 after it, and is the very game that gained him a lot of hate to begin with.

Shadow was divisive even before ShtH. ShtH just made him even moreso.

Actually, he still had a much more positive reception before ShTH came and ruined it, although there was a significant dip in certain fan reception. I've been around long enough to know that.

Seeing guns on him just sent things on a plummet and the fanboys certainly didn't help. (Needless to say, I was a bit of a fanboy myself, but I tried to use more logic and common sense when I could than worshiping the character. Tornado and Nepenthe can certainly vouch for that)

Edited June 20, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

I thought he was still generally liked until he displaced Sonic in his game.

Nah, there were people who weren't too happy with SA2's darker tone, with Shadow being right in the middle of it, or with Shadow for being a forced badass who straight outclassed Sonic, or with his resurrection in Heroes ruining the ending of SA2, or with his resurrection being completely unexplained in the game he returned in...there were plenty of reasons to not like him even before ShtH drove the wedge in even deeper.

FUCKING BULLSHIT!!!

I dunno, man. I'm not sure any character spinoff would've had any better success. Though that's not because their game wouldn't be good, or because ShtH was, but because Shadow himself was a fanboy magnet at the time. I don't think even characters like Tails and Knuckles had the karma and recognition to support their own spinoff.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Nah, there were people who weren't too happy with SA2's darker tone, with Shadow being right in the middle of it, or with Shadow for being a forced badass who straight outclassed Sonic, or with his resurrection in Heroes ruining the ending of SA2, or with his resurrection being completely unexplained in the game he returned in...there were plenty of reasons to not like him even before ShtH drove the wedge in even deeper.

Well they certain weren't as vocal over it until ShTH was announced with guns at E3 that time. Honestly tho, these sound like the things people would have said after Heroes at the very least, because SA2 had far more praise at the time before age caught up to it and people started looking at the game more critically.

I might have to consult Tornado for that to be certain

I dunno, man. I'm not sure any character spinoff would've had any better success. Though that's not because their game wouldn't be good, or because ShtH was, but because Shadow himself was a fanboy magnet at the time. I don't think even characters like Tails and Knuckles had the karma and recognition to support their own spinoff.

A kiss of death tho? That's the bullshit.

And like I said, there's no way you would have know how they would have turned out, which all the more reinforces what I was saying. It's all the more ambiguous what the reception and success would be than to be sure it would have been a bad thing. Tails and Knuckles were eclipsed by Shadow, but you can't tell me them having games would have spelt doom for the series when they were still popular characters at the time despite that. Even while Shadow was the 2nd popular back around 2001-03, based off the same poll Tails was 3rd and Knuckles was 4th, so I find it difficult they wouldn't have been able to support a spin-off.

Edited June 20, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[UltDevilDoom]

Well they certain weren't as vocal over it until ShTH was announced with guns at E3 that time. Honestly tho, these sound like the things people would have said after Heroes at the very least, because SA2 had far more praise at the time before age caught up to it and people started looking at the game more critically.

I might have to consult Tornado for that to be certain..

Just so you know, Shadow the Hedgehog was announced at Sony's Walk of Game. It's basically a hall of fame type event. The trailer did feature guns.

The first playable demo was at E3, and most players there had positive things to say. That reaction didn't stick for everyone when the game was released (that's an understatement), but oh well.

Also, Sonic Adventure 2 is the considered the best 3D sonic game. The critical reception has not changed much, if at all. I wish Sega would release it for download sooner than the unofficial release date, October 3.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Just so you know, Shadow the Hedgehog was announced at Sony's Walk of Game. It's basically a hall of fame type event. The trailer did feature guns.

That must have been where I saw it, but I certainly didn't remember it. All I recall was seeing it announced on G4TV.

The first playable demo was at E3, and most players there had positive things to say. That reaction didn't stick for everyone when the game was released (that's an understatement), but oh well.

I'm not entirely sure about the players, but I do know that the gaming press was interested to see if this game would make the successfully make the series more edgier.

But I was refering to the fandom. It was there where things were becoming fractured and a lot of fans were not happy at where this game was going. I know that because I was right in the middle of it when flamewars were going on. And the game's release made it worse before Sonic 06 added fuel to the fire.

Also, Sonic Adventure 2 is the considered the best 3D sonic game. The critical reception has not changed much, if at all.

Actually yes it has, although fortunately for it the reception is still positive. Nostalgia is the main defense that people both in and outside the fandom have for the game that they will defend it from hate, but people are a lot more critical of the game than they were in the past.

As for being the best 3D game, Sonic Colors and Generations are beginning to usurp that claim.

Edited June 20, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Tornado]

I thought he was still generally liked until he displaced Sonic in his game.

"SHADOW SHOULD HAVE FUCKING STAYED DEAD! HEROES RUINED ADVENTURE 2'S STORY!"

"OMIGOD I'M GLAD SHADOW'S BACK HE'S THE COOLEST CHARACTER EVER!"

- Typical circa-2004 fanbase reactions to Shadow. I don't recall their ever being a middle ground (because I can't really remember how things were before Shadow was known to be in Heroes). All his game did was drive the two sides farther apart.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Tornado

[Mangoaxe5]

Personally I'm glad that Sega brought Shadow back after Sonic Adventure 2.

I think the problem is the way that Sega brought Shadow back.

First of all Sonic Heroes was the wrong type of game to bring Shadow back in. Also the amnesia storyline was the wrong direction to take Shadow's character.

[Alice Twilight]

That was a dark and serious mood switch by people whose idea of dark and serious was to take Sonic Heroes and pepper the game script with PG-level swear words and then pretend that that alone makes it a mature bit of storytelling.

This is about as relevant to this discussion as bringing up the fact that it originally came out on a Tuesday. STH '06 sold pretty damn good too. But at what cost?

OH HAI. There's this thing called "modern first and/or third person shooters." The Halo 2-inspired ones, but also ones in the Gears-esque cover-based shooters vein. They have things called "melee attacks" (for the purposes of comparison, we can say they are the equivalent to the homing attack in ShtH, because though the differences are pretty big the inconvenience is about the same).

You can, in all but the most specific situations, play said games without ever even firing a gun. It's obnoxious as fuck and far, far more difficult; but it can still be done for a lot of them. Ergo, his point about guns being optional is completely valid for the majority of games in the genre in the exact same way that your point about them being optional in ShtH was completely valid (since, you know, ShtH was a third person shooter in addition to being a platformer).

How can you even argue against your own logical premise just because someone used it against you without looking like a tool?

>Not playing shooters without firing a shot

Get a load of this joker.

[Blacklightning]

I had to read that twice.....They're called Shooters for a reason ofcourse they're not going to be optional. How can you even argue about not having to use guns in a shooter and letting them be optional without looking like a tool?

You know, in spite of the shooter label I don't actually know a lot of actual shooter games these days that don't allow you to punch or stab things given the opportunity - take Halo if you need a specific example. Like you say, though, it's a bit tedious to get by most of the time without using a gun of any kind because they're the main damage dealers in your arsenal.

And yet somehow this point doesn't apply to ShTH? Are you actually aware that you're arguing against your own fucking point? Because even in the best case scenario it takes at least two hits to kill something (more if you decide to try punching them), and usually goes upwards of five. So this "choice" you speak of is a choice between grabbing the most prominent weapon you can find and popping them like an afterthought, or bouncing on them five times each like... as you put it so eleqouently well, a massive tool. It's bad enough that the game is so mind-numbingly repetitive without guns that you literally have no choice but to spam your strongest and most reliable attack which is still no stronger than the starting pistol - but even with that out of the way it's insulting to a supposedly demigodly hedgehog thing that he can flip a fucking bus and wield a tree and a mounted minigun as a weapon - all with one hand - and somehow be completely inept at taking on anything larger than a tiny wall-hugging parasite with his bare hands.

Oh, but that wasn't even your entire point in the first place, was it? Let's see those exact words again.

- Everything is optional

"Everything is optional". Now let's take that into account for a moment. Either this is a massive generalization or an outright, flat-faced lie. There do exist several levels where vehicles are a requirement of progression (the aformentioned Prison Island because of the various damaging pathways, but let's also add the high-jumping mech in Sky Troops and the various mook-riding shmup sections while we're at it). You can't finish the game without earning every ending, so you don't have a choice of simply sticking to an explicit choice of levels if you don't like being good/evil or don't like the levels themselves (to say nothing of the fact that the epilogue references almost none of them). Chaos Powers can't be ignored because you still need to Chaos Control in the Last Story to make it to the end. And no, not even guns are in the barest sense optional throughout the entire game because shooting targets and airborne enemies is sometimes a requirement of progress - I'll let

speak for me, among things.

That's not even what I take issue with. What ShTH is faced with is a plethora of arbitary and stupid design decisions, and telling people "oh well you can just choose not to use them" is incredibly immature and senseless bullshit even when it is true, because it still doesn't change the fact that they are arbitary and stupid design decisions that they've already built the entire game around. In a game like, say, Mirror's Edge, that would be a legitimate counterpoint because the game is in fact designed to accomodate an entire playthrough without shooting a single enemy. In ShTH, though, the game laughs at you if you decide to ignore the Big-Lipped-Alligator design entirely because it turns out Shadow is even more inept without it. Is it really any wonder that nobody is taking you seriously?

Edited June 21, 2012 by The Cheese

[Alice Twilight]

You know, in spite of the shooter label I don't actually know a lot of actual shooter games these days that don't allow you to punch or stab things given the opportunity - take Halo if you need a specific example. Like you say, though, it's a bit tedious to get by most of the time without using a gun of any kind because they're the main damage dealers in your arsenal.

And yet somehow this point doesn't apply to ShTH? Are you actually aware that you're arguing against your own fucking point? Because even in the best case scenario it takes at least two hits to kill something (more if you decide to try punching them), and usually goes upwards of five. So this "choice" you speak of is a choice between grabbing the most prominent weapon you can find and popping them like an afterthought, or bouncing on them five times each like... as you put it so eleqouently well, a massive tool. It's bad enough that the game is so mind-numbingly repetitive without guns that you literally have no choice but to spam your strongest and most reliable attack which is still no stronger than the starting pistol - but even with that out of the way it's insulting to a supposedly demigodly hedgehog thing that he can flip a fucking bus and wield a tree and a mounted minigun as a weapon - all with one hand - and somehow be completely inept at taking on anything larger than a tiny wall-hugging parasite with his bare hands.

Oh, but that wasn't even your entire point in the first place, was it? Let's see those exact words again.

"Everything is optional". Now let's take that into account for a moment. Either this is a massive generalization or an outright, flat-faced lie. There do exist several levels where vehicles are a requirement of progression (the aformentioned Prison Island because of the various damaging pathways, but let's also add the high-jumping mech in Sky Troops and the various mook-riding shmup sections while we're at it). You can't finish the game without earning every ending, so you don't have a choice of simply sticking to an explicit choice of levels if you don't like being good/evil or don't like the levels themselves (to say nothing of the fact that the epilogue references almost none of them). Chaos Powers can't be ignored because you still need to Chaos Control in the Last Story to make it to the end. And no, not even guns are in the barest sense optional throughout the entire game because shooting targets and airborne enemies is sometimes a requirement of progress - I'll let

speak for me, among things.

That's not even what I take issue with. What ShTH is faced with is a plethora of arbitary and stupid design decisions, and telling people "oh well you can just choose not to use them" is incredibly immature and senseless bullshit even when it is true, because it still doesn't change the fact that they are arbitary and stupid design decisions that they've already built the entire game around. In a game like, say, Mirror's Edge, that would be a legitimate counterpoint because the game is in fact designed to accomodate an entire playthrough without shooting a single enemy. In ShTH, though, the game laughs at you if you decide to ignore the Big-Lipped-Alligator design entirely because it turns out Shadow is even more inept without it. Is it really any wonder that nobody is taking you seriously?

Not really I think people are mis-understanding what I meant.

[Blacklightning]

Care to elaborate then? Don't keep me in suspense.

Unless you're going to selectively ignore key arguements again, in which case you can kindly not bother.

[UltDevilDoom]

You know, in spite of the shooter label I don't actually know a lot of actual shooter games these days that don't allow you to punch or stab things given the opportunity - take Halo if you need a specific example. Like you say, though, it's a bit tedious to get by most of the time without using a gun of any kind because they're the main damage dealers in your arsenal.

And yet somehow this point doesn't apply to ShTH? Are you actually aware that you're arguing against your own fucking point? Because even in the best case scenario it takes at least two hits to kill something (more if you decide to try punching them), and usually goes upwards of five. So this "choice" you speak of is a choice between grabbing the most prominent weapon you can find and popping them like an afterthought, or bouncing on them five times each like... as you put it so eleqouently well, a massive tool. It's bad enough that the game is so mind-numbingly repetitive without guns that you literally have no choice but to spam your strongest and most reliable attack which is still no stronger than the starting pistol - but even with that out of the way it's insulting to a supposedly demigodly hedgehog thing that he can flip a fucking bus and wield a tree and a mounted minigun as a weapon - all with one hand - and somehow be completely inept at taking on anything larger than a tiny wall-hugging parasite with his bare hands.

Oh, but that wasn't even your entire point in the first place, was it? Let's see those exact words again.

"Everything is optional". Now let's take that into account for a moment. Either this is a massive generalization or an outright, flat-faced lie. There do exist several levels where vehicles are a requirement of progression (the aformentioned Prison Island because of the various damaging pathways, but let's also add the high-jumping mech in Sky Troops and the various mook-riding shmup sections while we're at it). You can't finish the game without earning every ending, so you don't have a choice of simply sticking to an explicit choice of levels if you don't like being good/evil or don't like the levels themselves (to say nothing of the fact that the epilogue references almost none of them). Chaos Powers can't be ignored because you still need to Chaos Control in the Last Story to make it to the end. And no, not even guns are in the barest sense optional throughout the entire game because shooting targets and airborne enemies is sometimes a requirement of progress - I'll let

speak for me, among things.

That's not even what I take issue with. What ShTH is faced with is a plethora of arbitary and stupid design decisions, and telling people "oh well you can just choose not to use them" is incredibly immature and senseless bullshit even when it is true, because it still doesn't change the fact that they are arbitary and stupid design decisions that they've already built the entire game around. In a game like, say, Mirror's Edge, that would be a legitimate counterpoint because the game is in fact designed to accomodate an entire playthrough without shooting a single enemy. In ShTH, though, the game laughs at you if you decide to ignore the Big-Lipped-Alligator design entirely because it turns out Shadow is even more inept without it. Is it really any wonder that nobody is taking you seriously?

[Blacklightning]

What a douche.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

What a douche.

Edited June 21, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Alice Twilight]

Hey, try to get to know someone before you call them a douche.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Alice Twilight

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

God forbid no one treats him like a saint, right?

Edited June 21, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Alice Twilight]

That is the lamest strawman you could have ever given me.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

No, before you edited your post you implied everyone should have the upmost respect for him.

How lame.

[Alice Twilight]

Yeah, I edited because it gave off the wrong message.

What, I can't fix a mistake?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Calm down there kiddo. You're getting awfully mad because you know you messed up, so you quickly wanted to change what you said before anyone would notice. That was a pretty big mistake, chief

[Alice Twilight]

And you sound really patronizing, like you can obviously read how I'm feeling through the text.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Read? Honey. I can feel it through my bones.

Edited June 21, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Urban Flow]

The Good Stuff:

This Game is Hilarious.

The Bad Stuff:

This Game is Hysterical.

If I can only choose one word to describe this game, it would be DAMN (What a shit joke that was)

Edited June 21, 2012 by Urban Flow

[UltDevilDoom]

And clearly you are a mature and outstanding member of society yourself.

What? I never said that. That's, like... completely irrelevant to any point I was making.

The entire point I was making was that the latter is the more preferable option - which makes any suggestion of "baww don't use guns if you don't like them" fairly stupid when fighting unarmed is more like the former.

I'm not. My whole argument is disputing whether you can play the entire game without using them. PS: You can't.

There is so much strawman in that entire post that it isn't even funny. This was probably the icing on the cake.

...so wait, you're honestly trying to tell me I have an option of buying a game only to not play it? Please tell me you're not serious. That makes even less sense than any of Alice's arguments, and still doesn't excuse any stupid design decisions to boot.

Look, I'm not here to argue, but you're shitting on other people for liking something you don't.

Shadow's game needed a lot more work, I admit that. My own opinion for the game may be biast because Shadow is my favorite character. Whatever the reason, you don't have the right to try to shit on me or anyone else for liking the game, even if the game is flawed.