Sonic-related pet peeves?

[Jack / Joker]

I have to say, I do think Colours was at least loosely inspired by Galaxy. Sort of like SEGA went "oh, Mario in space, eh? I wonder what it would be like if we put Sonic in space" and then went about their work in a totally different way. 

 

I won't deny that it was loosely inspired by Galaxy, but ya know, people still like to look on it negatively because it's set in space like a game that came out three years before it... :/

Edited December 23, 2012 by Jolly Joker Frost

[-blank-]

In their defense, Sonic's been going to space long before Mario sooo.

And also, SA2's Mad Space had the walking on planets thing going for it, six years before Galaxy came out.

[Spin Attaxx]

Hey, Mega Man went into space in 3 and V (Game Boy)!-What a shameless ripoff of Galaxy!

Edited December 23, 2012 by Santa Attaxx

[Nepenthe]

While Sonic's gone into space, I can't recall when an entire game's been set up there, much less one based on "planet-hopping." Granted, with how different the two games ultimately ended up being anyway, calling Colors a rip-off is still wrong.

[Wraith]

It annoys me that the main argument against Nintendo buying Sega seems to be "nintendo will sabatog them becaz they r teh rivalz". That shit ended 10 years ago.

[MykonosFan]

The continued discussions over Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) and its (lack of) quality. I don't even like the game -- in fact, I honest-to-God hate it -- and even I'm starting to get sick of talking about it all the time. It's like... okay, I get it, it's a very terrible game and Sega should be ashamed of themselves for releasing the game in the state that it was in; can we please move past that shitty game and go on with our lives?

And no, the irony of me perpetuating this particular bugbear of mine with this post is not at all lost on me; in fact, it makes me all the more angry.

 

 

Digging back a month here, but I gotta say something.

 

Clement. Great guy, I like his reviews, he's a bro. But about a month ago (is this what prompted your post?) he wrapped up a 7 part review on Sonic 06...I counted up the total time, and it came out to roughly three and a half hours...

 

I just can't even begin to see the need. Were those videos entertaining? Offering insight no one else has? Great jokes? No hyperbolic "this game is a stain not on Sonic, but on gaming in general!" statements out the wazoo? I'm genuinely curious, because I didn't even bother to watch any of it. If it's something I should watch I'll gladly give it a go...but like you said...what else can we really say? I know the dude likes to exaggerate a bit and I totally respect that. But man, I know if I talked up a cumulative three and a half hours on why Sonic 06 sucked...then added up all the time recording footage, editing footage, combining footage, rendering footage, upload times...I may have gone insane.

[Dr. Crusher]

I'm pretty sure the guy himself never wanted to do it in the first place, but he decided that since he's been through almost every non-DS Sonic game before this one, he'd have to talk about it eventually since there's no way he could skip it and not have fans asking and complaining about it. And if he had to talk about it, he felt he might as well think of every single thing he can to point out, not only so that he can get it all off his chest, but also so that he doesn't have to talk about it again in the future and can move on to later and better games with a clear head.

 

So while I understand it's not for everyone, and though I'm otherwise sick of all the press the game gets as well, I think it's really well done, and indeed, at the very end of it, he leaves off on a positive note and says he promises to never be this negative again.

 

Oh, and I think there were also a few little things he felt other reviewers might not have been mentioning. And hell, in the last part, he even points out that he himself knows he's beating a dead horse and says that there are technically worse games out there, but that 06 is the worst one he's ever played.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Dr. Crusher

[Spin Attaxx]

Besides, the fact that 06 is still featured on "worst game" lists pretty much proves that it is a really bad game, an insult to Sonic and is entirely deserving of its hate.

[Dr. Crusher]

Like I said, I myself agree with Komodin and wish the game - bad as it is - to be put in it's grave already, but Clement's review is the one exception since I think it was well done and view that now as the one thing anyone needs to see when they think they might get the game (and in fact, I also view it as said game's tombstone and/or memorial). It's everything else about Sonic 06's popularity that gets on my tits.

Edited December 23, 2012 by Dr. Crusher

[-blank-]

I really liked Clement's review. Did it really need to be three hours long? Nah. But at the same time I liked that he went into the detail he did and I found the whole review rather entertaining. And it got me wanting to watch other videos from him, so yeah. I'll say this though - guy looks a lot like a guy I know in real life...

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I forgot whether I said this before, but the people that mistake "simple, lighthearted story" for "braindead, idiotic, nonexistent story."

[Nepenthe]

By that token, the crusade against seriousness and darkness isn't all that welcome either and it's probably the reason we're stuck with such weak and boring narratives. It's also annoying when asking for better stories is met with the annoying equivalent of "Oh so you want the furry version of Ghost in the Shell? Did you learn nothing from Sonic 06?" There really is no middle ground in this particular discussion.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

By that token, the crusade against seriousness and darkness isn't all that welcome either and it's probably the reason we're stuck with such weak and boring narratives. It's also annoying when asking for better stories is met with the annoying equivalent of "Oh so you want the furry version of Ghost in the Shell? Did you learn nothing from Sonic 06?" There really is no middle ground in this particular discussion.

 

Honestly, it seems like Sonic is the only damn franchise in which certain groups' brains go on vacation when it comes to the subject of how his stories should be handled.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Malpercio

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I forgot whether I said this before, but the people that mistake "simple, lighthearted story" for "braindead, idiotic, nonexistent story."

Yeah, in the same sense that people mistake "complex, deep and dark story" for "grimdark, gore, cussing, and incomprehensible for children."

 

Funny thing is that I could destroy that logic with several games:

• Paper Mario - Thousand Year Door,
• Super Paper Mario,
• LoZ: Majora's Mask (obviously)
• Megaman X
• Megaman Zero
• Kingdom Hearts (oh screw you, that game goes into some existential shit right there)

Anyone else wanna add to the list? Cuz this isn't even getting into mediums outside of gaming.

 

The fact that Mario does it should be enough of a kick to the gonads on how wrong that belief is, especially when those same people against dark stories LOVE to use Mario as an example for Sonic to follow.

 

EDIT: Actually, the furry equivalent of Ghost in the Shell sounds pretty badass...

Edited December 24, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Mogtaki]

Anyone else wanna add to the list? Cuz this isn't even getting into mediums outside of gaming.

 

Epic Mickey is pretty grotesque if you look at what's going on, I guess.

 

Mother/Earthbound, oh dear god that definitely gets on that list...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

How the fuck can I forget Earthbound/Mother? Anyone who's ever heard of Giygas already knows how unsettling he is, and that's not even getting into the other parts of the series.

[Wraith]

How the fuck can I forget Earthbound/Mother? Anyone who's ever heard of Giygas already knows how unsettling he is, and that's not even getting into the other parts of the series.

 

 

Mother 3 in paticular pretty much teaches you not to get attached to anyone or anything, and that game as the fucking cutest looking graphics ever.

[Diogenes]

By that token, the crusade against seriousness and darkness isn't all that welcome either and it's probably the reason we're stuck with such weak and boring narratives. It's also annoying when asking for better stories is met with the annoying equivalent of "Oh so you want the furry version of Ghost in the Shell? Did you learn nothing from Sonic 06?" There really is no middle ground in this particular discussion.

While I do support more complex and serious stories than we've been getting recently, I really can't blame people for pushing against dark and serious stories after how terribly this series handled them. They're elements that need to be used carefully and in moderation, and Sonic Team hasn't really shown much of that kind of restraint.

 

Yeah, in the same sense that people mistake "complex, deep and dark story" for "grimdark, gore, cussing, and incomprehensible for children."

 

Funny thing is that I could destroy that logic with several games:

• Megaman X

I thought the general consensus was that the X series' story was kind of a joke...not for being grimdark or anything, but more for being overdramatic without having much of anything to say, and being more a nuisance than a worthwhile element.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

While I do support more complex and serious stories than we've been getting recently, I really can't blame people for pushing against dark and serious stories after how terribly this series handled them. They're elements that need to be used carefully and in moderation, and Sonic Team hasn't really shown much of that kind of restraint.

While I can definitely agree with this, the problem isn't just about how badly Sonic Team handled the story, but also how the fanbase generally reacted. Instead of acting with some degree of common sense and realizing that it was Sonic Team's poor handling that ruined some otherwise average to decent stories (certain ones aside), certain groups instead apply this blanket mentality that interesting, complex, and/or deep stories overall are bad because of complexities or whatever the hell they claim is bad, and refuse to even give Sonic a chance.

 

It's these kinds of people I have a genuine problem with, because trying to make any arguments or even just statements that even mildly suggest anything that goes against their narrowminded perspective is like trying to break open a brick wall with your bare hands.

Edited December 24, 2012 by Malpercio

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

While I do support more complex and serious stories than we've been getting recently, I really can't blame people for pushing against dark and serious stories after how terribly this series handled them. They're elements that need to be used carefully and in moderation, and Sonic Team hasn't really shown much of that kind of restraint.

Understandable. However, that's still no excuse for people taking the idea so far to the extreme when the idea is presented. It's not like we're asking for another ShTH here, and while I wouldn't blame them that Sonic Team might end up misunderstanding things and making just that, it should be kept in mind that just like there are plenty of ways to be lighthearted without being like the Teletubbies or anything for pre-schoolers there are plenty of ways to do serious without going to the realms of Inception or whatever series is trying to be "adult".

 

I thought the general consensus was that the X series' story was kind of a joke...not for being grimdark or anything, but more for being overdramatic without having much of anything to say, and being more a nuisance than a worthwhile element.

I'm don't really think that's the case. I think it has more to do with the shitty voice acting the X series had that underscored the serious elements of the plot in other titles, such as Zero's "What am I fighting for" scream after he killed his girlfriend Isis.

Edited December 24, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Nepenthe]

While I do support more complex and serious stories than we've been getting recently, I really can't blame people for pushing against dark and serious stories after how terribly this series handled them. They're elements that need to be used carefully and in moderation, and Sonic Team hasn't really shown much of that kind of restraint.

 

And on the other extreme, the lighthearted stories we've gotten are a bane because they're less engaging than watching paint dry, so it's not at all surprising that people will equate the lightheartedness we see in Colors, Generations, and Heroes with ennui. However, doing so is always called out as if these specific stories are actually good; it's a blatant double-standard. Overall, the writing itself needs to be handled with care regardless of the general tone a story strives for, so I'm not for holding a specific tone like "lightness" on a pedestal as it has been done before, especially since the absolutely terrible storytelling we've gotten recently is almost certainly a direct result of the community's overreaction to "darkness."

Edited December 24, 2012 by North Pole Nepenthe

[Diogenes]

I'm don't really think that's the case. I think it has more to do with the shitty voice acting the X series had that underscored the serious elements of the plot in other titles, such as Zero's "What am I fighting for" scream after he killed his girlfriend Isis.

The bad voice acting certainly didn't help, but I don't think it's the root of the problem. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone defend the X series stories as being good. The latter half of them, I've gathered, is kind of a mess in general, and I've heard Inafune intended it to end with..X5, I think?...which I can't imagine helped things. And the earlier games, what plot they had beyond "fight evil robots" seemed like forced faux-philosophical junk. Like, what is an example of a legitimately good story in the X series? What does it do to put itself above "jump and shoot man with lots of words"?

 

And on the other extreme, the lighthearted stories we've gotten are a bane because they're less engaging than watching paint dry, so it's not at all surprising that people will equate the lightheartedness we see in Colors, Generations, and Heroes with ennui. However, doing so is always called out as if these specific stories are actually good; it's a blatant double-standard.

I wouldn't call this a double standard. Worst case scenario a light story is generally going to do less damage than a dark/serious story, I think; a bad light story is likely to be inconsequential and wasted potential, but that's about it. It does less damage by virtue of being less. A bad dark/serious story, on the other hand, asks you to take it seriously, so it's got further to fall when it fails to entertain. I'm not saying that a bad light story is actually good by virtue of being light, but I don't consider them to be equal opposites.

[Dizcrybe]

certain groups instead apply this blanket mentality that interesting, complex, and/or deep stories overall are bad because of complexities

 

As long as Sonic Team themselves is behind the writing, that seems to be the case. These new guys could probably pull off something a bit more serious if ST would just let go of their hands.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The bad voice acting certainly didn't help, but I don't think it's the root of the problem. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone defend the X series stories as being good. The latter half of them, I've gathered, is kind of a mess in general, and I've heard Inafune intended it to end with..X5, I think?...which I can't imagine helped things. 

They're not exactly the best, I'll admit, but as far as them being good, I'm not that deep into the fanbase to know the actual opinions. So consider me at a loss here. I've seen some like the stories as much as they criticize it, but that's not saying a lot on my part.

 

And yeah, Inafune intended to end at X5 and start the Zero franchise with elements such as the Eurasia Space Colony playing a signifcant role as Area Zero in MMZ4. Things didn't really sit right with him when Capcom greenlighted work for X6 behind his back.

 

And the earlier games, what plot they had beyond "fight evil robots" seemed like forced faux-philosophical junk. Like, what is an example of a legitimately good story in the X series? What does it do to put itself above "jump and shoot man with lots of words"?

Honestly, it's been awhile since I've played the X series, so my memory's pretty bad beyond a few snippets that I can remember, such as Isis' death, the rebellion of the Repliforce, Wily encouraging Zero to destroy X, Eurasia crashing, Zero's deaths, and X and Zero fighting each other.

[Nepenthe]

I wouldn't call this a double standard. Worst case scenario a light story is generally going to do less damage than a dark/serious story, I think; a bad light story is likely to be inconsequential and wasted potential, but that's about it. It does less damage by virtue of being less. A bad dark/serious story, on the other hand, asks you to take it seriously, so it's got further to fall when it fails to entertain. I'm not saying that a bad light story is actually good by virtue of being light, but I don't consider them to be equal opposites.

 

A double standard doesn't have to promote hypocrisy between perfectly equal opposites because the term would be impossible to apply to most real-world scenarios; it just requires that the premises being compared be reasonably similar. Regardless, angrily opposing anyone who associates lightheartedness with absolute naff storytelling whilst contributing to the ridiculous echo chamber that seriousness can only yield Sonic 06 levels of melodrama is inherently hypocritical because it's painting a wide array of potential tones with too broad a brush, and it's not productive to the conversation of how the series' storytelling can be improved.