Sonic-related pet peeves?

[Blue Blood]

Actually, it would probably be Silver, mostly because he had the misfortune of appearing in the worst Sonic game.

 

P.S. Inb4 Miru goes El Pollo Loco on Silver.

By the time Silver rolled around, lots of people had given up caring. Shadow is the one that represents the series darks days, but that's not to say Big is much better (even though I <3 him).

[Diogenes]

People who want Big back in Sonic and All Stars Racing 3. Big was retired, and fir very good reasons. He was very unpopular. He stood as a symbols of the franchise's decay,

Man, who hasn't.

 

I mean there's no doubt that Big's first appearance is one of the strongest examples of shitty, unwanted gameplay in this series, but that's basically irrelevant regarding a spinoff racing game. And anyone who thinks Big's character is harmful to the series, I can't even begin to take their complaint seriously.

[sonfan1984]

He stood as a symbols of the franchise's decay, the poster boy of what everyone hated about Sonic's friends. At Sonic's lowest point, he was amongst the most hated video game characters ever made, Sonic or otherwise.

 

How is he a symbol and a poster boy of the 'franchise decay' when he barely appears in the games anymore or been a playable character since Heroes? Other then his fishing levels in Sonic Adventure I don't get all the hate for Big.

Edited December 27, 2012 by sonfan1984

[Dizcrybe]

A while back I read a topic on another forum where someone posted a demo of Ocean Palace by Naofumi Hataya. Most of the members preferred over the final version by Jun Senoue, except for one of them who preferred Senoue's version. Another member chewed him out for it, asking something to the effect of (and this is paraphrased), "How could you possibly like Senoue's version better unless you were of lower intelligence? Clearly Hataya's version is superior, and if you can't see that, you are simply not an intelligent human being."

 

That pissed me off. I cannot STAND ​conceited people like that who think that every word they speak is the be-all, end-all truth, and anyone who disagrees with them is a sub-human, knuckle-dragging swine. I wanted to tell that dickhead off so badly, but alas, I was not a member at the time.

[Spin Attaxx]

I very much agree with the above, though that peeve does extend beyond Sonic.

 

As for Big's fishing, if it had been an optional minigame in Twinkle Park or something, and Big's main gameplay was different (something like a playable wrecking ball, kinda like Diogenes suggested in the Other Characters thread), I think most would be indifferent at worst to Big, and only hate him because they think that:

 

A: He is part of the Shitty Friends syndrome they think Sonic suffers from, or

 

B: He is a retard (ignore Chronicles - Big may be mentally slow, but he's not a retard - oh, that's another peeve, misunderstood characterisation)

Edited December 27, 2012 by Santa Attaxx

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

People who want Big back in Sonic and All Stars Racing 3. Big was retired, and fir very good reasons. He was very unpopular. He stood as a symbols of the franchise's decay, the poster boy of what everyone hated about Sonic's friends. At Sonic's lowest point, he was amongst the most hated video game characters ever made, Sonic or otherwise.

Here's a very often repeated pet peeve of mine: people who bash characters and demand they be kept out of the games simply because they don't like them, or better yet, throw all of the series' problems on that particular character. I'm not a fan of Big in the games as he's my least favorite character, but damn do I actually defend the guy when I see it necessary.

 

And it downright pisses me off when someone says it's a good thing that X character they don't like was axed for "very good reasons", and act like there's no way or at the very least fail to see that there is some way to make the character decent despite the shortcomings. It is arrogant as hell, extremely insulting to the fans who do like that character (fully aware of the dislike, whether they understand or not), and it only goes to highlight how those entitled people who do this crap should be the least deserving among fans to get what they want out of the series.

Edited December 27, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[BlazingTales]

When people use a character as a scapegoat for the larger problems which plagued the series. Be it Big, Shadow, or even Silver, the concept of any character being the heart or "poster child" of any issue rather than pointing to bad game development and writing is unconstructive and reaks of fandumb and borderline elitism. I don't care how much fishing sucks, or how hilaribad ShTH's story was, or that Sonic '06 apparently killed your dog; characters are not the root of these problems: poor game development is.

Doubtlessly, some characters are more closely linked to some flaws than others, but they act more as symptoms rather than the virus itself. It's as illogical as blaming Tails' addition to the series and overall character for the fact Sonic 2's special stage developers didn't think to make him invincible or give the AI better reaction time. The exclusion of any character will not automatically make the series better, and eliminating rather than bettering a character just seems like backwards thinking that deprives the series from any positive elements and appeal the series would otherwise have.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Blazing Yule Log

[Spin Attaxx]

And it downright pisses me off when someone says it's a good thing that X character they don't like was for "very good reasons", and act like there's no way or at the very least fail to see that there is some way to make the character decent despite the shortcomings. It is arrogant as hell, extremely insulting to the fans who do like that character (fully aware of the dislike, whether they understand or not), and it only goes to highlight how those entitled people who do this crap should be the least deserving among fans to get what they want out of the series.

 

So would I fit into that category, seeing how I hate Eggman Nega and I believe he cannot be saved because I think he is a lame rehash of a great villain, with all charm and likability removed and he stands as a thumbs up to effortless recolours with no originality?

Edited December 27, 2012 by Spin Attaxx

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

So I'd fit into that category because I hate Eggman Nega because I think he is a lame rehash of a great villain, with all charm and likability removed and he stands as a thumbs up to effortless recolours with no originality?

I put it like this: There is a line between critique and bashing, and it is very easy to see most of the time when you're crossing the line from one into the other. Critique is fine (even if I may not agree with it), bashing is not (most of the time). Critiquing Nega is okay, but bashing him is not; so if you're saying Nega should be axed because he's a clone of Eggman, then yeah you'll probably fall into that category.

 

I'm a Shadow fan, for example, when people point to his game, his acting, and all the mess that they put into him after SA2 over how they screwed his character up, I can't help but nod and agree. But then comes the line when people say his inclusion brought the apocalypse onto the series, and I think you can see the difference I'm talking about.

 

A wise man here once said: "If you're gonna hate on something, do it accurately."

Edited December 27, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Jack / Joker]

So would I fit into that category, seeing how I hate Eggman Nega and I believe he cannot be saved because I think he is a lame rehash of a great villain, with all charm and likability removed and he stands as a thumbs up to effortless recolours with no originality?

 

It's not like they could take him in a better direction in his next appearance, nope.

 

Sonic, Tails and Eggman were a lame shadow of their former selves in games like Shadow and '06, with all charm and likability removed, but the latest games took them in a better direction and they all really benefited from it.

 

I'm a big fan of a character who is in serious need of repair, actually, so stuff like this is rather irritating to see.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Optimus Prime

[Nepenthe]

If there's a pet peeve I have about characters that's not already been stated, it's using the word "whiny" in an awful attempt at critique. The only character with whom this labelled has been applied and it's actually been accurate is Chris; his "problems" are significantly understated compared to his complaining, and despite him calling himself selfish, it gets to the point that an in-series character has to tell him that to his face as well. Otherwise, it's seems to be a catch-all term for a character that either has a problem that needs sorting or perhaps has a disagreeable voice. It's right up there with the words "angst" and "emo" for me in that the moment I see them, I know to disregard the rest of whatever someone has written because it's not worth the time.

[Spin Attaxx]

It's not like they could take him in a better direction in his next appearance, nope.

 

Sonic, Tails and Eggman were a lame shadow of their former selves in games like Shadow and '06, with all charm and likability removed, but the latest games took them in a better direction and they all really benefited from it.

 

I'm a big fan of a character who is in serious need of repair, actually, so stuff like this is rather irritating to see.

 

Well, Nega never had much character to begin with, beyond "Eggman, but eeeeeeviler and SICKER and MORE TWISTED!" and general stuff that screams "bad fancharacter".

[Kuzu]

It's not like they could take him in a better direction in his next appearance, nope.

 

Sonic, Tails and Eggman were a lame shadow of their former selves in games like Shadow and '06, with all charm and likability removed, but the latest games took them in a better direction and they all really benefited from it.

 

I'm a big fan of a character who is in serious need of repair, actually, so stuff like this is rather irritating to see.

 

Don't know about you, but that gif is hilarious to me.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well, Nega never had much character to begin with, beyond "Eggman, but eeeeeeviler and SICKER and MORE TWISTED!" and general stuff that screams "bad fancharacter".

We can see that, but is there absolutely no way to change some of that for the better that doesn't involve getting rid of him? I'm not a fan of Nega either for similar reasons, but my first solution to something like this is very rarely to be "get rid of it/him/her".

Edited December 27, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Spin Attaxx]

I guess if they made him Dr. Weird levels of crazy, toned down his evilness and redesigned him to make him 95% less like Eggman.

 

But then they may as well make an entirely new character. And replace Nega with that.

[Jack / Joker]

Don't know about you, but that gif is hilarious to me.

 

Well sure, but I wanted to post a gif of Knuckles running in the wrong direction to find the Chaos Emeralds in '06 (despite being able to sense the fucking things with his goddamn mind), or something like that, but I found this one made my point easier to understand off the bat, y'see =P

 

 

Well, Nega never had much character to begin with, beyond "Eggman, but eeeeeeviler and SICKER and MORE TWISTED!" and general stuff that screams "bad fancharacter".

 

We all know how shitty he is now, but this doesn't need to be the case forever, right? =P Wouldn't you rather see a character you hate turn into one you uh, don't hate, than for them to just shove him under the rug like they... actually did, now that I think about it?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I guess if they made him Dr. Weird levels of crazy, toned down his evilness and redesigned him to make him 95% less like Eggman.

 

But then they may as well make an entirely new character. And replace Nega with that.

By that logic, they may as well make a new character to replace everyone else in the series they decide to make changes so that they don't suck. Taken to the extreme, they should replace the series all together after Sonic 06 and made it the new mascot for their company.

 

We don't need to go through Bleach Syndrome when it comes to characters, dude. This series gets enough flak for the characters as it is, and making a new one could very easily exacerbate the mindset.

[Spin Attaxx]

I don't know what Bleach Syndrome is, but what I suggested wasn't merely just a new personality, but an entirely different design altogether. And if you're going to radically change a character's design so that little of the "original" design remains, then a new character replacing it would be pretty much the same.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Spin Attaxx

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don't know what Bleach Syndrome is, but what I suggested wasn't merely just a new personality, but an entirely different design altogether. And if you're going to radically change a character's design so that little of the "original" design remains, then a new character replacing it would be pretty much the same.

Bleach Syndrome is essentially the extreme version of what Sonic does with new characters. When stuck on what to do with something regarding the story, the temporary fix is to make a new character.

Needless to say, there is a thing called "Character Development" that you aren't looking into which could side step it completely without adding new characters; you take the old character and put them in a situation that forces them to make major changes to their ways and have it stick for the long term. It's much safer to do than to replace the old and expect the new to be well received. I'd like to partially call it the "Raiden Remedy" named after Raiden from MGS2 was disliked for his portrayal by many fan and replacing Snake, but then changed his personality and entire appearance completely from regular operative into cyborg ninja and having fan reception do a complete U-turn: in the past they hated him, now many of them love him and are giving him a second chance.

If it could work for once hated character like Raiden, who's to say it can't work for any other character?

Edited December 28, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

We don't need to rush to either extreme. We shouldn't be replacing characters every time something goes wrong, but I don't think replacing a character (or simply retiring some, and independently creating new ones) should be entirely off the table.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It should be done in reason, tho. If a character isn't likable than they intended, the first solution should be to fix the problem by altering some of their traits so that they aren't as bad as they originally were as a character. When all else fails, then replacing them would be the better alternative. Not "this character is bad, so get rid of him".

[Spin Attaxx]

Bleach Syndrome is essentially the extreme version of what Sonic does with new characters. When stuck on what to do with something regarding the story, the temporary fix is to make a new character.

Needless to say, there is a thing called "Character Development" that you aren't looking into which could side step it completely without adding new characters; you take the old character and put them in a situation that forces them to make major changes to their ways and have it stick for the long term. It's much safer to do than to replace the old and expect the new to be well received. I'd like to partially call it the "Raiden Remedy" named after Raiden from MGS2 was disliked for his portrayal by many fan and replacing Snake, but then changed his personality and entire appearance completely from regular operative into cyborg ninja and having fan reception do a complete U-turn: in the past they hated him, now many of them love him and are giving him a second chance.

If it could work for once hated character like Raiden, who's to say it can't work for any other character?

 

Raiden wasn't a pallette swap of Snake. And even if you changed Nega's personality, he'd still be a recolour. And recolours aren't really likable, no matter how developed their personality.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Raiden wasn't a pallette swap of Snake. 

I don't see how being a model swap is any better when people still thought he sucked by comparison in MGS2.

 

And even if you changed Nega's personality, he'd still be a recolour.

Make him less of a recolor? How hard is it to come to this alternative?

 

And recolours aren't really likable, no matter how developed their personality.

Yeah, regardless of whether it's fiction or real life, the world isn't black and white like that, dude. And it would be better if you kept this in mind and stop thinking in extremes over anything you don't like.

 

That's not saying that recolors are actually likable by default, because it's hard to deny that in this day and age where it's become a cliche for newer media to do it, it's not seen as very creative. But that still doesn't prevent them from gaining a sizable audience to contest that claim.

 

However, it should be noted that many people throw the "recolor" term at Shadow the hedgehog (mainly as an insult than as a critique, and forgetting the whole point behind his conception to boot), and he was seen as an awesome character by many before turning into the marmite that he is today. Meaning, that it is possible for "recolors" - should you choose to call Shadow one - to be likable, and personality has a lot to do with it among many other character traits.

 

I mean, it's like comparing Ken to Ryu here. Heck, if I wanted to go further, I'd even say Mario and Luigi before they began showing slight physical differences, or even despite that. Or hell, how about Pit and Dark Pit from Kid Icarus: Uprising? That is the most blatant example of a recolor for recent media, and I'd really love to see you argue how Dark Pit isn't likable. Or how about Dark Link and how he seems to be rather popular? Or what about Dark Samus? What would you say for all these recolors? Seriously, TV Tropes has one of dozens of lists on the topic that mentions such recolors, each with a success or failure at having an audience that likes them. So I don't think it rings true for everything that "recolors aren't likable, regardless of their personality".

Edited December 28, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Spin Attaxx]

Well, for the likes of Dark Pit/Link/Samus and Shadow, they're all meant to be evil versions of good guys (which is getting pretty cliché itself). And they (usually) have a clear personality beyond "this guy, but evil". For instance, Wario's personality isn't an evil version of Mario's - he's his own character with his own charm that doesn't come from him being "evil Mario". And SEGA at least tried to make Shadow seem like a character that was independent and different from Sonic. Besides, the likes of Bass and Wario have their own design that isn't a mere pallette swap of their good counterparts.

 

Nega is an evil version of an already evil character, and has little personality beyond a carbon copy of Eggman's, but with all the likable charm to it removed. As a result, it's not only redundant, but it also makes the original Eggman look inferior by comparison. As someone on here once said (I think Dr. Crusher?), it's like if Capcom made a doppelganger to Dr. Wily who looked exactly the same, but was purple and was more competent and eviler than Wily - why not just axe Wily and make "Dark Wily" the new villain - he's more effective as a villain than the old one, why bother keeping the old fool around?

 

And I'd say the audience who likes dark recolours are the same guys who write fanfics with overpowered Gary Stus - most 13 year olds do.

[redhellc]

The problem with removing Nega for me is that the series as very few evil characters, at lest ones that a used more than once. I mean I think he could be done right, for example look at generations the scene with the two Eggmans was really cool and I really liked their interaction. If they improve the character a little it would work much better.

 

Besides he works great as villain if they decide to make a game either in Silver's future or in Blaze's dimension, that way they don't need to use Eggman himself.

 

Of course this only matters if they cared about Nega which is not true, Sonic Team as probably forgot about that character.

I mean the last game was what, the Olympics right? So the last time he was in a game it was a spin-off and one that is not done by Sonic Team.

 

So yeah I say that Nega will probably be stuck in the Ifrit dimension forever.     

Edited December 28, 2012 by redhellc