Sonic-related pet peeves?

[Splash the Otter]

So him being away from Angel Island is only half of a really easily solved problem, and part of the reason why is because they don't give any good reason for doing so as if it doesn't exist for him, or when they do pull it off it's often in the worst or most lacking narratives they've made or even completely miss their chance when it came to Unleashed. We've had this discussion before,  

If Knuckles needs a reason to be away from Angel Island, then that's pretty much exactly what I said about the Master Emerald keeping him from doing anything fun. I'm okay with the thing appearing in a story, but I don't want it shoehorned into every game that Knuckles appears in.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

If Knuckles needs a reason to be away from Angel Island, then that's pretty much exactly what I said about the Master Emerald keeping him from doing anything fun. I'm okay with the thing appearing in a story, but I don't want it shoehorned into every game that Knuckles appears in.

Well you're not the only fan with things they don't want, now are you?

 

Let's get one thing straight, because you don't seem to get what the word "shoehorning" means. Shoehorning is forcefitting something into a place where it doesn't fit. Givng Knuckles a reason to be away from Angel Island doesn't forcefit everything, is putting something into place where it does and can fit, contradicting the definition. It would be no different to saying that GUN told Shadow and Rouge to investigate something. If it were shoehorning, it would be putting the Master Emerald or even Knuckles into a plot, but not giving it any reason for being there; case in point, Knuckles in Sonic 06 who (among other characters) hardly had any reason for being around.

 

Giving a reason for being away, such as kidnapping him away from home, the world getting blown up and needing everyone helping, or having his island get attacked and he wants to find out who did it, or whatever you can craft for him isn't shoehorning. It's setting him into a place where he can fit into the narrative. So stop misusing that term.

 

I've already called you out for being self-centered the last time you shunned this, but I'm making this clear again: You want Knuckles to be involved more often, but I (along with other fans no doubt) don't want the stuff he's guarding to be forgotten. That's the whole point in giving him a reason to be away from the island in the first place: to give us what we both want regarding the character. It is really not that hard of a compromise.

[Splash the Otter]

Let's get one thing straight, because you don't seem to get what the word "shoehorning" means. Shoehorning is forcefitting something into a place where it doesn't fit. Givng Knuckles a reason to be away from Angel Island doesn't forcefit everything, is putting something into place where it does and can fit, contradicting the definition. It would be no different to saying that GUN told Shadow and Rouge to investigate something. If it were shoehorning, it would be putting the Master Emerald or even Knuckles into a plot, but not giving it any reason for being there; case in point, Knuckles in Sonic 06 who (among other characters) hardly had any reason for being around.

 

Giving a reason for being away, such as kidnapping him away from home, the world getting blown up and needing everyone helping, or having his island get attacked and he wants to find out who did it, or whatever you can craft for him isn't shoehorning. It's setting him into a place where he can fit into the narrative. So stop misusing that term.

If "shoehorning" isn't the word I'm looking for, then what is it? And would you count "having a life outside of Angel Island" as a good reason? Because I don't see why Knuckles shouldn't be allowed to spend time with his friends.

 

I've already called you out for being self-centered the last time you shunned this, but I'm making this clear again: You want Knuckles to be involved more often, but I don't want the stuff he's guarding to be forgotten. That's the whole point in giving him a reason to be away from the island in the first place: to give us what we both want regarding the character. It is really not that hard to do.

I don't want it abandoned either, so please stop acting like I do. I just want to see Knuckles in plots that don't involve Angel Island, the Master Emerald, or a global crisis (which is a lazy way to get the whole cast involved IMO). That doesn't mean I won't accept any of those elements, but I would like to avoid making any of them a prerequisite for Knuckles to appear.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

If "shoehorning" isn't the word I'm looking for, then what is it? And would you count "having a life outside of Angel Island" as a good reason? Because I don't see why Knuckles shouldn't be allowed to spend time with his friends.

I don't know what the word you're looking for is, the closest I can think of is "connected" and we both know disconnecting him from that isn't what I want.

 

And if "having a life outside of Angel Island" didn't run the risk of ignoring Angel Island and all that lies within it, I probably wouldn't mind it (although as far as having a life goes, I'd wonder why his friends couldn't come to him instead to spend time with him, but that's a moot point right now).

 

I don't want it abandoned either, so please stop acting like I do.

 

After what you said to me last time,  was practically a middle finger to a you have a tall ass ladder to climb in order to convince me otherwise at this point.

 

 

 

I just want to see Knuckles in plots that don't involve Angel Island, the Master Emerald, or a global crisis (which is a lazy way to get the whole cast involved IMHO). That doesn't mean I won't accept any of those elements, but I would like to avoid making any of them a prerequisite for Knuckles to appear.

Then what narrative reason would you have that has Knuckles (and only Knuckles, not some general answer you can use for any character) essential to be around, but without ignoring the Master Emerald or Angel Island he's suppose to be guarding? Something that forces him to leave them because there's something equally important that needs him around? I'm not asking for them to be central to the plot, I'm not even asking them to be used much in the plot beyond knowing that these powerful things are still around and connected to him. At most, I'm wanting the excuse to match the risk he's taking for leaving them, or for these things not to be forgotten or disregarded even if he's doing something that forces him to be away from them at the very least; some all around creativity from those who want to go this route so that we can build Knuckles as a character for whichever path he takes.

 

You say you want Knuckles involved in plots not involving the Angel Island or Master Emerald, I'm saying I want to avoid pulling the same crap they did with Knuckles in Heroes or Sonic 06 where his character hardly had any material to work with in the narrative. And once again we reach this conflict of interests, and once again I'm wanting a compromise.

 

Every time I've asked this in the past, you fail to even attempt to answer it. Every time I give you an example to show you just how incredibly easy this is to do this, you've disregarded them for a simple mention of Angel Island or the Master Emerald even if they had the most miniscule part in the plot or more selfishly because the ideas didn't interest you. And right now, I'm seeing very little attempt from you to compromise and more to grab the whole thing for yourself.

 

And after all this is said, now I want to see you prove me wrong, because I've already bent over as far as I'm willing to go over this.

[StaticMania]

And Sonic Battle, and Sonic Chronicles if you're going to use spin-off games. So that's literally three instances of using the Master Emerald in an interesting way. Four games if you're including Sonic Rivals 1.

 

But I certainly agree with the idea of them being close minded of using either Knuckles or the Emerald, because they seem to be that way for most of the whole cast.

 I'm not really sure what happens in Sonic Battle(All there was to what I read was that Sonic tried to use the Master Emerald to neutralize the Chaos Emeralds)...but in Sonic Rivals 1, I don't see how that's using it interestingly, its just the Master Emerald being turned into a card and getting stolen again. I mean the whole future Angel Island thing doesn't really need the Master Emerald to have anything more than a mere mention to explain why it is that way...because all that happens is that it stays at sea level after it falls from the sky and things happen that the result is Onyx Island.

[Splash the Otter]

I don't know what the word you're looking for is, the closest I can think of is "connected" and we both know disconnecting him from that isn't what I want.

I think the word I'm looking for has a more negative connotation than "connected".

 

And if "having a life outside of Angel Island" didn't run the risk of ignoring Angel Island and all that lies within it, I probably wouldn't mind it (although as far as having a life goes, I'd wonder why his friends couldn't come to him instead to spend time with him, but that's a moot point right now).

And what kind of lifestyle is that, may I ask? Like I said before, the Master Emerald prevents Knuckles from doing anything fun. The way I see it, Angel Island is basically a prison.

 

After what you said to me last time,  was practically a middle finger to a you have a tall ass ladder to climb in order to convince me otherwise at this point.

Hello? People are allowed to change their minds about things, you know!

 

Then what narrative reason would you have that has Knuckles (and only Knuckles, not some general answer you can use for any character) essential to be around, but without ignoring the Master Emerald or Angel Island he's suppose to be guarding? Something that forces him to leave them because there's something equally important that needs him around? I'm not asking for them to be central to the plot, I'm not even asking them to be used much in the plot beyond knowing that these powerful things are still around and connected to him. At most, I'm wanting the excuse to match the risk he's taking for leaving them, or for these things not to be forgotten or disregarded even if he's doing something that forces him to be away from them at the very least; some all around creativity from those who want to go this route so that we can build Knuckles as a character for whichever path he takes.

Knuckles shouldn't need a reason to be away from Angel Island. He should be granted the same freedom enjoyed by every other character in the series. That's my opinion, and nothing you say or do will ever change it.

 

You say you want Knuckles involved in plots not involving the Angel Island or Master Emerald, I'm saying I want to avoid pulling the same crap they did with Knuckles in Heroes or Sonic 06 where his character hardly had any material to work with in the narrative. And once again we reach this conflict of interests, and once again I'm wanting a compromise.

That's a strawman and you know it. Did I say at any point that I want Knuckles to be useless? What I want is for him to have a purpose that isn't related to the Master Emerald.

 

Every time I've asked this in the past, you fail to even attempt to answer it. Every time I give you an example to show you just how incredibly easy this is to do this, you've disregarded them for a simple mention of Angel Island or the Master Emerald even if they had the most miniscule part in the plot or more selfishly because the ideas didn't interest you. And right now, I'm seeing very little attempt from you to compromise and more to grab the whole thing for yourself

I'm the selfish one? Despite trying to come up with ways to keep the Master Emerald safe without Knuckles, all of which you shot down because they weren't 100% foolproof? Newsflash: having Knuckles up there doesn't guarantee that the damn thing won't get stolen and/or broken either!

 

And after all this is said, now I want to see you prove me wrong, because I've already bent over as far as I'm willing to go over this.

I guess we're at an impasse then, since I'm not budging an inch on the subject either.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

 I'm not really sure what happens in Sonic Battle(All there was to what I read was that Sonic tried to use the Master Emerald to neutralize the Chaos Emeralds)...but in Sonic Rivals 1, I don't see how that's using it interestingly, its just the Master Emerald being turned into a card and getting stolen again. I mean the whole future Angel Island thing doesn't really need the Master Emerald to have anything more than a mere mention to explain why it is that way...because all that happens is that it stays at sea level after it falls from the sky and things happen that the result is Onyx Island.

Basically that the Master Emerald transcends time and space, so you could steal it at any time period and make it vanish with the right tools. Which is why it was turned into a card; if Nega went after it into the future, it would still be there in the present, so making it vanish as a card makes it disappear in all timelines.

 

That, and the historical elements you can add with it in the future.

 

And what kind of lifestyle is that, may I ask? Like I said before, the Master Emerald prevents Knuckles from doing anything fun. The way I see it, Angel Island is basically a prison.

If you view a home as a prison, then you've got a skewed mindset on what a home is.

 

Like he can't do anything fun on his giant floating continent that has several different biomes wrapped in one place? He can't build sandcastles in Sandopolis, make snowmans, go snowboarding and have snowball fights in the Ice Cap, lounge on the beaches of the island, go swimming and surfing in Hydrocity, playing around Marble Garden, bounce off the mushrooms in Mushroom hill, or even skydive from Sky Sanctuary? And he can't invite his friends over to hang out in a place that has more than what one person could need their whole life?

 

Well that is one luxurious prison he lives in. Most billionares, or hell even actual prisoners would kill to have a prison with all that stuff that comes for free. I know I'd like to be imprisoned in a floating mansion in the sky that takes care of itself and invite my friends to play. And all they have to do is watch over and guard a green rock that keeps it floating and keep it that way.

 

For a prison, Knuckles sure has it made.

 

 

 

Hello? People are allowed to change their minds about things, you know!

Yeah, that isn't convincing me - for all I know, they can also lying.

 

 

 

Knuckles shouldn't need a reason to be away from Angel Island. He should be granted the same freedom enjoyed by every other character in the series. That's my opinion, and nothing you say or do will ever change it.

Not every character enjoys the same freedom in this series. Shadow, Rouge, and Omega have responsibilities for GUN, Blaze is separated by a whole dimension, Silver separated by a hundreds of years, and the Chaotix are detecitives for hire looking for whatever work that can financially support them. And like Knuckles, they need reasons too, some of which are much easier to create than others.

 

About the only character that have any kind of freedom to do anything are Sonic, Tails, Amy, and Big the Cat, and that's because unlike Knuckles and the other characters, they don't have any responsibilities or barriers that they need to worry about.

 

 

 

That's a strawman and you know it. Did I say at any point that I want Knuckles to be useless?

 

I don't know, did I say say that you wanted Knuckles to be useless or did I say I wanted to avoid what they've been doing to him in games like Heroes and Sonic 06?

 

You tell me which is the strawman.

 

 

 

I'm the selfish one? Despite trying to come up with ways to keep the Master Emerald safe without Knuckles, all of which you shot down because they weren't 100% foolproof? Newsflash: having Knuckles up there doesn't guarantee that the damn thing won't get stolen and/or broken either!

It's less that you're ways could be easily abused to keep him from returning to them. Basically "hid the Master Emerald and let him go hang out with Sonic or treasure hunt." For all I know, you'd use that excuse again and again just to avoid having him on the island whenever you want.

 

Meanwhile, I first suggested something to give you an idea of what I'm talking about. One of which was having Knuckles get kidnapped and have him fight his way home, with the only thing about the Island or the Emerald is that Knuckles is forced away from it and the most important thing for him was to escape. You say it doesn't interest you because it still has the Master Emerald and Angel Island around for him, despite only a passing mention of it.

 

I also suggested having some outside force threaten his island, and force him to leave to find out and stop it. Once again, doesn't interest you because of the emerald and island's passing mention.

 

And I've come up with several more ideas that force him away, none of which involve stealing or breaking the Emerald. But I want to see you put forth more effort.

 

 

 

I guess we're at an impasse then, since I'm not budging an inch on the subject either.

I guess it's that hard to prove me wrong, huh?

[Spin Attaxx]

Like he can't do anything fun on his giant floating continent that has several different biomes wrapped in one place? He can't build sandcastles in Sandopolis, make snowmans, go snowboarding and have snowball fights in the Ice Cap, lounge on the beaches of the island, go swimming and surfing in Hydrocity, playing around Marble Garden, bounce off the mushrooms in Mushroom hill, or even skydive from Sky Sanctuary? And he can't invite his friends over to hang out in a place that has more than what one person could need their whole life?

Goddammit now I wish I could have my own floating continent to myself ;n;

[Splash the Otter]

Like he can't do anything fun on his giant floating continent that has several different biomes wrapped in one place? He can't build sandcastles in Sandopolis, make snowmans, go snowboarding and have snowball fights in the Ice Cap, lounge on the beaches of the island, go swimming and surfing in Hydrocity, playing around Marble Garden, bounce off the mushrooms in Mushroom hill, or even skydive from Sky Sanctuary? And he can't invite his friends over to hang out in a place that has more than what one person could need their whole life?

 

Well that is one luxurious prison he lives in. Most billionares, or hell even actual prisoners would kill to have a prison with all that stuff that comes for free. I know I'd like to be imprisoned in a floating mansion in the sky that takes care of itself and invite my friends to play. And all they have to do is watch over and guard a green rock that keeps it floating and keep it that way.

 

For a prison, Knuckles sure has it made.

I don't care how much there is to do up there, the only way I could be convinced that it wasn't a prison is if other people lived on the island with him, because then he would be able to consistently spend time with them.

 

Yeah, that isn't convincing me - for all I know, they can also lying.

I can assure you that I'm not lying. I no longer have a problem with Knuckles guarding the emerald, provided it doesn't become to him what Sonic became to Amy during the Dreamcast era. That's the main thing I'm worried about here.

 

Not every character enjoys the same freedom in this series. Shadow, Rouge, and Omega have responsibilities for GUN, Blaze is separated by a whole dimension, Silver separated by a hundreds of years, and the Chaotix are detecitives for hire looking for whatever work that can financially support them. And like Knuckles, they need reasons too, some of which are much easier to create than others. About the only character that have any kind of freedom to do anything are Sonic, Tails, Amy, and Big the Cat, and that's because unlike Knuckles and the other characters, they don't have any responsibilities or barriers that they need to worry about.

Teams Dark and Chaotix still have a lot of freedom, and Silver really needs to stay in Sonic's time period. I'll concede on Blaze, but that's different because while Blaze is physically incapable of crossing dimensions of her own accord, Knuckles can just glide down to South Island.

 

I don't know, did I say say that you wanted Knuckles to be useless or did I say I wanted to avoid what they've been doing to him in games like Heroes and Sonic 06?

 

You tell me which is the strawman.

Sorry, it sounded like you thought I wanted a repeat of "Knuckles is in the games for no reason", which is what I meant by making him useless.

 

It's less that you're ways could be easily abused to keep him from returning to them. Basically "hid the Master Emerald and let him go hang out with Sonic or treasure hunt." For all I know, you'd use that excuse again and again just to avoid having him on the island whenever you want.

It's a serviceable excuse that justifies Knuckles being off the island and can be used in just about any story, so you bet I'll use it as much as I can! Not to keep him away from Angel Island though, but to make sure that when he eventually goes back, it's on his own terms and not those of his possessions.

 

Meanwhile, I first suggested something to give you an idea of what I'm talking about. One of which was having Knuckles get kidnapped and have him fight his way home, with the only thing about the Island or the Emerald is that Knuckles is forced away from it and the most important thing for him was to escape. You say it doesn't interest you because it still has the Master Emerald and Angel Island around for him, despite only a passing mention of it.

Actually, I was okay with that idea. My only problem with it came from the way you phrased it, making it sound like his goal was "go back to Angel Island" rather than "get out of the current situation".

 

I also suggested having some outside force threaten his island, and force him to leave to find out and stop it. Once again, doesn't interest you because of the emerald and island's passing mention.

If the outside force is threatening his island, that's hardly a passing mention. And I wouldn't mind stuff like this if it wasn't the only way to have Knuckles appear in the games without people complaining. I mean, suppose he appeared in three consecutive games, with his reasons for being off the island respectively being "I was abducted", "some fuckhead blew up Marble Garden", and "my life doesn't revolve around that emerald, you know". I don't want to make inaccurate accusations here, so I'll just ask you this: would you be willing to accept the third reason in addition to the first two?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don't care how much there is to do up there, the only way I could be convinced that it wasn't a prison is if other people lived on the island with him, because then he would be able to consistently spend time with them.

And as I asked you before, he can't invite people like his friends over to his island to spend time with him? The guy has more than enough room to have company over to play with.

 

 

 

I can assure you that I'm not lying. I no longer have a problem with Knuckles guarding the emerald, provided it doesn't become to him what Sonic became to Amy during the Dreamcast era. That's the main thing I'm worried about here.

And I should reassure you that you've already lost too much trust for me to believe that right now, given that I've already said I wouldn't mind him being away from guarding the thing if there was a decent narrative reason for him to be away, since the main thing I'm worried about is them disregarding these things like they've been doing for years.

 

 

 

Teams Dark and Chaotix still have a lot of freedom, and Silver really needs to stay in Sonic's time period. I'll concede on Blaze, but that's different because while Blaze is physically incapable of crossing dimensions of her own accord, Knuckles can just glide down to South Island.

Even considering that on my part, none of them have been doing anything worthwhile with any of that so-called freedom they have since Sonic 06 for Team Dark, and ShTH for the Chaotix. Meanwhile, there's a lot to explore in Silver's time period that, like Knuckles, you'd risk disregarding instead of using that to explore and build the character and those involved.

 

And like Knuckles, I'd rather they be given strong narrative reasons for their involvement.

 

 

 

Sorry, it sounded like you thought I wanted a repeat of "Knuckles is in the games for no reason", which is what I meant by making him useless.

No, but I will say that what you want has that risk of doing so, and I'd like to avoid that rather than accept that chance anymore.

 

 

 

It's a serviceable excuse that justifies Knuckles being off the island and can be used in just about any story, so you bet I'll use it as much as I can! Not to keep him away from Angel Island though, but to make sure that when he eventually goes back, it's on his own terms and not those of his possessions.

Yeah, see that is precisely why I'm not for it, because I don't trust that it won't be abused to keep him away from the island like you say you won't do.

 

 

 

Actually, I was okay with that idea. My only problem with it came from the way you phrased it, making it sound like his goal was "go back to Angel Island" rather than "get out of the current situation".

At first you were. (hence the "get out of the current situation"), 

 

 

 

If the outside force is threatening his island, that's hardly a passing mention. And I wouldn't mind stuff like this if it wasn't the only way to have Knuckles appear in the games without people complaining. I mean, suppose he appeared in three consecutive games, with his reasons for being off the island respectively being "I was abducted", "some fuckhead blew up Marble Garden", and "my life doesn't revolve around that emerald, you know". I don't want to make inaccurate accusations here, so I'll just ask you this: would you be willing to accept the third reason in addition to the first two?

So a simple hit-and-run of "some fuck head blew up Marble Garden and flew away from the island, I'm going to search and chase that bastard down and get some payback" isn't a passing mention, considering that the only important thing about the island is that someone attacked it and Knuckles flat out leaves it to go chase down the guy who did it?

 

And like I said, these aren't the only ideas I've had in mind beyond the ones I've already given. But I'm not seeing the same effort on your end to share any of the others.

 

As for accepting the third reason? I probably would accept it if he weren't in this mess in the first place and I trusted it enough to know it wouldn't be abused. But it's been more than several years - to a whole decade not counting spin-off games - since it's actually had any involvement with him or even the series, and after having this discussion for so long I've not seen anything that would keep that reason in check to prevent it from being overused anytime he's around.

 

So if you want me to accept that idea, I want to see some checks and balances on it. That's primarily why I favor using the Emerald and the Island more, because since you view these things as a prison for him it forces me to be creative and keep it fresh every time I seek to use it.

[Splash the Otter]

And I should reassure you that you've already lost too much trust for me to believe that right now, given that I've already said I wouldn't mind him being away from guarding the thing if there was a decent narrative reason for him to be away, since the main thing I'm worried about is them disregarding these things like they've been doing for years.

Okay, seriously? What's it going to take for me to convince you that I don't hate the Master Emerald anymore? I'm trying to be open-minded here, and you're just responding with hostility.

 

Even considering that on my end, none of them have been doing anything worthwhile with any of that so-called freedom they have since Sonic 06 for Team Dark, and ShTH for the Chaotix. Meanwhile, there's a lot to explore in Silver's time period that, like Knuckles, you'd risk disregarding instead of using that to explore and build the character and those involved.

That's the fault of the writers, not the characters themselves. And to be brutally honest, I don't give a flying fuck about Silver's time period.

 

At first you were. (hence the "get out of the current situation"), 

Again, people are allowed to change their minds about stuff.

 

So a simple hit-and-run of "some fuck head blew up Marble Garden and flew away from the island, I'm going to chase his ass down and get some payback" isn't a passing mention, considering that he flat out leaves the island to go chase down the guy who attacked it?

Did I at any point say that a passing mention was an inherently bad thing? The closest I may have come to that is implying it by accident. I just don't think every appearance by Knuckles needs to be justified.

 

As for accepting the third reason? I probably would accept it if he weren't in this mess in the first place and I trusted it enough to know it wouldn't be abused. But it's been more than several years - to a whole decade not counting spin-off games - since it's actually had any involvement with him or even the series, and after having this discussion for so long I've not seen anything that would keep that reason in check to prevent it from being overused anytime he's around. So if you want me to accept that idea, I want to see some checks and balances on it.

Well, it's hardly my fault that the writers haven't been able to think of a good storyline for Knuckles! And when you say "checks and balances", what exactly do you mean? I already said that it's just one of many reasons to have Knuckles off the island, and while admittedly it's the most exploitable reason, that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be abused.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Okay, seriously? What's it going to take for me to convince you that I don't hate the Master Emerald anymore? I'm trying to be open-minded here, and you're just responding with hostility.

You can start by finding a compromise for us both on this subject.

 

I've already given my ideas, now I want to see you reciprocate. If you're as open-minded as you say you're trying to be, you shouldn't have too much of a problem finding a solution that doesn't give either of us the middle finger like you did the last time.

That's the fault of the writers, not the characters themselves.

I know that's the fault of the writers. I'm not blaming the characters for this, but now I'd like it to be fixed by giving these characters more direction to them.

 

 

 

And to be brutally honest, I don't give a flying fuck about Silver's time period.

Well I do, and like Knuckles I want it explored and used to build Silver's character.

 

 

 

Again, people are allowed to change their minds about stuff.

And that change of mind can come at the risk of a change in trust.

 

 

 

Did I at any point say that a passing mention was an inherently bad thing? The closest I may have come to that is implying it by accident. I just don't think every appearance by Knuckles needs to be justified.

You said, and I quote "If the outside force is threatening his island, that's hardly a passing mention," not that a passing mention was a bad thing. I really have no idea where you are getting that from.

 

And I don't see why not have Knuckles (or anyone for that matter) justify his appearance. I don't see it as any different for every other character bar Sonic, because I'd like to think it forces people to be more creative in using these characters so that they don't risk being shoehorned in games like Heroes or Sonic 06 - or even Generations to a certain extent (and I've been pretty forgiving of it for what it is) where certain characters hardly did anything worthwhile.

 

 

 

Well, it's hardly my fault that the writers haven't been able to think of a good storyline for Knuckles!

I don't see how I was blaming you for what the writers have been doing, unless you support the results it's led to.

 

 

 

And when you say "checks and balances", what exactly do you mean? I already said that it's just one of many reasons to have Knuckles off the island, and while admittedly it's the most exploitable reason, that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be abused.

When I say "checks and balances" I mean something that downright ensures it won't be exploited to the point of abuse. Because if something can be that exploitable, then that something more than likely will be abused. It's a big reason why I'm arguing against it in the first place otherwise I wouldn't see the need to since I know something is keeping it under control or I could at the very least trust the idea not to worry about it. But given all that's happened, you can clearly see that I don't.

 

And as I said, I already have one of my own that forces me to be creative to build and develop the character and the elements connected to him, but I'm not seeing anything similar on your end.

[Splash the Otter]

You can start by finding a compromise for us both on this subject.

 

I've already given my ideas, now I want to see you reciprocate. If you're as open-minded as you say you're trying to be, you shouldn't have too much of a problem finding a solution that doesn't give either of us the middle finger like you did the last time.

That's the thing, I can't think of a compromise that you seem willing to accept. And since you just shot down my latest one just because it might be abused, I have my doubts that you'll ever accept anything I come up with.

 

Well I do, and like Knuckles I want it explored and used to build Silver's character.

But that means either introducing more dudes to the series (which I want to avoid) or time travel (which gives me a headache). And this conversation isn't about Silver anyway.

 

You said, and I quote "If the outside force is threatening his island, that's hardly a passing mention," not that a passing mention was a bad thing. I really have no idea where you are getting that from.

My point is that Angel Island shouldn't have to be part of Knuckles' motive every time. Just about everything you came up with involves it to some extent (you said yourself that "getting back home" was indeed Knuckles' main concern in the "abducted" scenario) and while that's perfectly okay, I'd like to see more effort on your part in branching Knuckles out into other things.

 

And I don't see why not have Knuckles (or anyone for that matter) justify his appearance. I don't see it as any different for every other character bar Sonic, because I'd like to think it forces people to be more creative in using these characters so that they don't risk being shoehorned in games like Heroes or Sonic 06 - or even Generations to a certain extent (and I've been pretty forgiving of it for what it is) where certain characters hardly did anything worthwhile.

There's a difference between a character appearing in a game without any justification and a character being shoehorned. Believe it or not, Knuckles was not shoehorned into Heroes, since you shouldn't need a reason to hang out with your two closest friends. As for NextGen, I could make an argument that everyone was shoehorned with the exception of Silver and Team Dark. Hell, even Sonic himself didn't have any reason to be in Soleanna!

 

When I say "checks and balances" I mean something that downright ensures it won't be exploited to the point of abuse. Because if something can be that exploitable, then that something more than likely will be abused. It's a big reason why I'm arguing against it in the first place otherwise I wouldn't see the need to since I know something is keeping it under control or I could at the very least trust the idea not to worry about it. But given all that's happened, you can clearly see that I don't.

I don't know what to tell you in that case. All I can say is that if I'm going to accept Angel Island playing a bigger role in Knuckles' life (and the risk of his becoming obsessed with the place is still too high for my liking), you'll have to accept the chance that my idea will be abused.

[Junko]

All I basically said what I wanted some more integration with the M.E and Knuckles...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That's the thing, I can't think of a compromise that you seem willing to accept. And since you just shot down my latest one just because it might be abused, I have my doubts that you'll ever accept anything I come up with.

I also said I'd probably accept it if there were was a check and balance to ensure it won't be abused like it has been, one you have yet to provide. And even then, it seems like you'd want these things engineered primarily for your benefit at the expense of mine.

 

My point is that Angel Island shouldn't have to be part of Knuckles' motive every time. Just about everything you came up with involves it to some extent (you said yourself that "getting back home" was indeed Knuckles' main concern in the "abducted" scenario) and while that's perfectly okay, I'd like to see more effort on your part in branching Knuckles out into other things.

And as I've said time after time after time, I wouldn't mind Knuckles branching out into other things so long as that doesn't come at the risk of disregarding these things. Everything I've come up with does involve it even as he's far away, but since you seem to take issue with it in the most miniscule of roles or motive, that's a big problem with you because you take that minor concern and make it into a big problem.

 

 

 

There's a difference between a character appearing in a game without any justification and a character being shoehorned. Believe it or not, Knuckles was not shoehorned into Heroes, since you shouldn't need a reason to hang out with your two closest friends.

Except that's not why he was brought into Heroes. In fact, Team Sonic had the weakest excuse for being around in that game in general.

 

 

 

As for NextGen, I could make an argument that everyone was shoehorned with the exception of Silver and Team Dark. Hell, even Sonic himself didn't have any reason to be in Soleanna!

Noted, as Sonic 06 isn't the best told plot. But this conversation is about Knuckles specifically... 

 

 

 

I don't know what to tell you in that case. All I can say is that if I'm going to accept Angel Island playing a bigger role in Knuckles' life (and the risk of his becoming obsessed with the place is still too high for my liking), you'll have to accept the chance that my idea will be abused.

Obsessed? Really?

 

So after I assure you that it could have the most miniscule involvement as he branches out into other things, just so long as it's not disregarded, that's somehow risking obsession simply because it's a part of his life. Meanwhile, I've already had to see your idea take part for Knuckles for several years which partially lead to me wanting these things brought back for him to use, as it's already been abused enough as it is. I say, for fairness sake, there should be a check and balance so that neither idea is to be abused,  giving you one of my own that forces me to be more creative with these things on my part, but you refuse to or can't seem to reciprocate. Well that comes off as rather greedy.

 

 

All I basically said what I wanted some more integration with the M.E and Knuckles...

Haha...yeah, that's the forums for ya. We start arguments over just a passing mention of these things.

 

Makes time pass tho.

[Splash the Otter]

All I basically said what I wanted some more integration with the M.E and Knuckles...

Oh, so do I. Unfortunately, there seems to be some disagreement over just how much integration there should be...

 

And as I've said time after time after time, I wouldn't mind Knuckles branching out into other things so long as that doesn't come at the risk of disregarding these things. Everything I've come up with does involve it even as he's far away, but since you seem to take issue with it in the most miniscule of roles or motive, that's a big problem with you because you take that minor concern and make it into a big problem.

CSS, listen to me. I do not hate your ideas. I've actually been warming up to them lately. My entire problem is your apparent (and keep in mind this is just how things look from my side of the argument) belief that Angel Island must play some part in Knuckles' motive, otherwise he's shoehorned. The only exception is the "global crisis" scenario, which I don't like because in that kind of situation everyone has pretty much the same motive.

 

Obsessed? Really?

 

So after I assure you that it could have the most miniscule involvement as he branches out into other things, just so long as it's not disregarded, that's somehow risking obsession simply because it's a part of his life.

That isn't what I meant! It's just...well, look at what happened to Amy in the Dreamcast era! She started out just wanting to impress Sonic so he would like her, which then became an obsession with being married to him (through force if neccessary) in Heroes. I'm worried about something like that happening to Knuckles.

 

Meanwhile, I've already had to see your idea take part for Knuckles for several years which partially lead to me wanting these things brought back for him to use, as it's already been abused enough as it is.

Yeah, but Knuckles hasn't done anything during those several years, so it shouldn't count in my opinion. You would have a reasonable argument if Knuckles had been around for more than just fanservice, and even more if he was actually playable for most of that time.

 

I say, for fairness sake, there should be a check and balance so that neither idea is to be abused, I give one of my own that forces me to be more creative with these things on my part, but you can't seem to reciprocate. That comes off as rather greedy.

Why not alternate between "story with some connection to Angel Island" and "story without any connection"? That way both of us get what we want, and none of our ideas stick around for long enough at a time to get abused. It's a win-win situation!

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

CSS, listen to me. I do not hate your ideas. I've actually been warming up to them lately. My entire problem is your apparent (and keep in mind this is just how things look from my side of the argument) belief that Angel Island must play some part in Knuckles' motive, otherwise he's shoehorned. The only exception is the "global crisis" scenario, which I don't like because in that kind of situation everyone has pretty much the same motive.

My belief is that Angel Island and the Master Emerald shouldn't be disregarded. This is what leads to me asking things like "What is he doing off of Angel Island?" They don't have to play any major part in his motive; he could be teleported into a battle arena because his friends asked for him to be around to help and he's wondering why the hell he's there when he was sleeping on his island (which answers my question without any problems), but I don't want these things treated as if they're something to be ignored within the narrative as in the case of Heroes (which was a rather weak narrative in general) or Sonic 06 (which was poorly told).

 

And as I've said, I wouldn't mind him being away so long as it's not at their expense.

 

That isn't what I meant! It's just...well, look at what happened to Amy in the Dreamcast era! She started out just wanting to impress Sonic so he would like her, which then became an obsession with being married to him (through force if neccessary) in Heroes. I'm worried about something like that happening to Knuckles.

I'm wanting these things to develop and build Knuckles as a character, not have him obsess over it to the point of making him a stereotype. You'd think after I initially told you about using these things to give him more to do that it wouldn't have made that a concern in the first place.

 

Yeah, but Knuckles hasn't done anything during those several years, so it shouldn't count in my opinion. You would have a reasonable argument if Knuckles had been around for more than just fanservice, and even more if he was actually playable for most of that time.

Which hasn't been helping his character at all. I don't see why they shouldn't count when they're the very examples of the problems I want to avoid.

 

Why not alternate between "story with some connection to Angel Island" and "story without any connection"? That way both of us get what we want, and none of our ideas stick around for long enough at a time to get abused. It's a win-win situation!

That was practically the same idea I had already given you, with the only connection to Angel Island being that he was forced off due to some circumstance, whether he was kidnap, someone attacked it and he's chasing them down, or that the other characters really needed his expertise or other skills that absolutely no other character could provide. Something that blurred our ideas into one instead of keeping them separate.

[Splash the Otter]

That was practically the same idea I had already given you, with the only connection to Angel Island being that he was forced off due to some circumstance, whether he was kidnap, someone attacked it and he's chasing them down, or that the other characters really needed his expertise or other skills that absolutely no other character could provide. Something that blurred our ideas into one instead of keeping them separate.

I'm willing to accept this, provided of course that Knuckles doesn't have to be forced off the island every time. There should still be times where he just leaves of his own accord, just to show that he has a life outside Angel Island.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm willing to accept this, provided of course that Knuckles doesn't have to be forced off the island every time. There should still be times where he just leaves of his own accord, just to show that he has a life outside Angel Island.

However creative you go about it, once again, perfectly fine so long as it's not at the expense of disregarding these other elements connected to him.

[Delta Starfire]

A pet peeve of mine?

 

Fans who take Sonic way too seriously. I mean, it's cool that you love Sonic -- I do too -- but when you actually start to get into a serious, and often aggressive discussion of who is faster -- Sonic or Shadow? -- based on an analysis of the aerodynamics of their spikes, I think you might be taking things a little far. 

 

Head canon is one thing, and I think it's perfectly legitimate until an official source says otherwise. But to insist that your interpretation has to be right and to get so argumentative with people who disagree, when none of you have any official word to back you up, I think, is about on a par with insisting that your shipping preferences are superior. 

 

Sonic is a fictional character who defies the laws of physics as we know them. I don't think aerodynamics play too big a role in his speed or in who is actually faster. That's going to be down to the writers. And good luck getting any consistency out of Sega's writers. Archie's maybe... But not Sega's. 

 

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

I've always been annoyed by people treating Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic like separate characters, because...well...they're not? It's really just a relatively minor design change, and that's...it.

People treating Classic Sonic as too "cutesy" is also annoying, as it feels like a distortion of what he was. I know he may look like a kid next to modern Sonic, but he was always supposed to be a teenager (and one "with attitude" )

I really don't like people being too defensive about Sonic or too antagonistic to other universes, such as "Sega fans" being too antagonistic to Western media or Western media fans being too antagonistic to Sega stuff. It just seems silly and like a waste of energy to get that worked up over other people's preferences.

Just people being too divisive about Sonic in general is very annoying...

[Johnny Boy]

Since most of the Sonic characters are under 18, It always kind of bugged me that we never got an explanation of where their parents are (with the exception of Cream). Most glaringly is Knuckles, especially since he's supposed to be the last of his kind and Tails due to the fact the he's only 8.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Johnny Boy

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

When people say about Sonic being a glory hog or taking away powers. Please it just makes me angry to hear it because its so not true. 

 

[DarkDefeater]

I'm sure this has been stated before in this very large thread; practically, everything has.

My pet-peeve is being given a speed boost box or invincibility box, and the given item is useless, because either the level design prevents you from proceeding quickly or there are no obstacles or enemies around, making the invincibility pointless.

The other day I was playing Sonic 2; before me in the casino zone was a speed boost box. I opened it, only to find myself rolling through the pinball sections. The powerup made no difference.

[Dee Dude]

One of my biggest pet peeves was back when people used to hate anyone who wasn't Sonic,Tails,or Eggman because apparently they're  "unnecessary" or "unimportant", every character is important in his/her own way and greatly contributes to the series.

But really grinds my gears is the fact that they always refer them as "Sonic's friends" which is a complete load of bullcrap in my opinion because first off: characters like Amy, Knuckles, Shadow, etc, should be treated as characters in their own right and they shouldn't be treated like garbage simply for having a association with Sonic, second off: "friends" wouldn't exactly apply to characters like Shadow, Rouge, Chaotix or heck even Knuckles, I'd call them allies, acquaintances or friendly rivals. 

And if you truly believe "Sonic's sh*tty friends" are to blame for the series downfall, then you're an idiot.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2015 by Dan-Dude