Sonic-related pet peeves?

[Your Vest Friend]

A very minor peeve; drawing the Babylon Rogues with nostrils. I'm aware that they had it in their 2D art in Riders. They've been nostril-less since, so it's inaccurate.

Also Espio drawn with nostrils on that note. While it would make sense for him to have them, he doesn't, so that's also inaccurate. Not to mention that lizards nostrils can look the same colour as the outer scales.

Edited July 14, 2012 by VEDJ-F

[Scar]

Yes. It's shallow gameplay, and supporting it prevents Sonic from being great.

Bit of a slippery slope you got there. What makes you so certain that supporting what is a fun, if shallow game like Generations, is going to actively prevent Sonic from being great? Do you honestly think that because Generations was received relatively well (aggregate 76%-77% isn't actually that amazing) that they're going to stop trying to improve the gameplay or maybe even change it entirely?

[Kuzu]

Yes. It's shallow gameplay, and supporting it prevents Sonic from being great.

Shallow doesn't equate to terrible; I prefer something more from the Modern gameplay myself, but that doesn't mean I don't like it nor do I think it' terrible.

Edited July 14, 2012 by The Batman

[Vertekins]

Where was it ever mentioned that Sonic has tunnel vision? XD

Tunnel vision. Defined by "The Free Dictionary" as "An extremely narrow point of view; narrow-mindedness."

It's as if he's not taking into consideration others feelings and POV's regarding his views and actions and settles only on running around and adventuring rather than do much else when not stopping Eggman's latest plan. A very centric part of Sonic but still one that is very tunnel vision-esque.

Another Sonic-related peeve of mine? Criticism of Sonic's quirks in the Storybook games. People act like it shouldn't be a part of Sonic's character for him to read books because, you know, having such an active lifestyle and being an adolescent daredevil AUTOMATICALLY means that he can't show the slightest inclinations towards kicking back now and then and reading doesn't it? Besides, Sonic was sick at the beginning of SatSR, which justifies the fact that he was resting and reading a good book by the fire.

Also, the ending with that wish is nowhere near as cheesy and awful as people make it out to be. And it'd be hugely OOC for Sonic to immediately start making wild wishes considering that he treated Shahra as a friend rather than someone whose magical abilities he could whore-out to fulfill his wildest dreams.

[Diogenes]

Okay, I agree that 3d Sonic have not filled it's potential yet. I'll give you that. But, in my opinion, when you strip Sonic down to his very core, Sonic is a speedy platformer. The classic games implemented pinball physics and built the game around it, using that to gain speed, among other things. Most 3d titles lost this, but IMO they haven't lost what makes Sonic, well, Sonic: speedy platforming.

Rolling was so integral to the concept that the character himself was shaped by it. Sonic wouldn't be "the Hedgehog" if not for rolling. This isn't something that can just be forgotten.

I believe that Modern Sonic has the best 3d level design so far (with it's great balance of speed and platforming

I really don't think speed and platforming are well balanced here, because they're on such extreme opposite ends of the spectrum. As Sonic's top speed gets higher and the mid range of speeds vanishes, the line between "a platforming section" and "a speedy section" becomes sharper. The levels are heavily segmented into either one or the other. Sonic's moveset breaks apart in a platforming section because he's not designed for it.

with some well designed platforming.

Where?

and I'm not going to argue if you find anything other then rolly-polly Sonic gameplay unfun.

I do play games besides Sonic, y'know. I do recognize that things other than rolling are fun. But the modern gameplay is not fun. It has no depth, it has no interesting mechanics. And rolling is what Sonic should be doing.

... with multiple pathways, constantly intertwining.

Generations barely scratches the surface of intertwining pathways...

Bit of a slippery slope you got there. What makes you so certain that supporting what is a fun, if shallow game like Generations, is going to actively prevent Sonic from being great? Do you honestly think that because Generations was received relatively well (aggregate 76%-77% isn't actually that amazing) that they're going to stop trying to improve the gameplay or maybe even change it entirely?

If the series is selling well and has a positive reputation as it is, then change is risky, perhaps too risky for them to go for. They can still polish it, introduce a new gimmick or two, but they're not likely to change the core unless there's a need to. And I think this core is rotten.

Shallow doesn't equate to terrible

No, but it doesn't equate to great either, and I'm not interested in settling for mediocre.

[Scar]

If the series is selling well and has a positive reputation as it is, then change is risky, perhaps too risky for them to go for. They can still polish it, introduce a new gimmick or two, but they're not likely to change the core unless there's a need to. And I think this core is rotten.

Well, like I said 78% aggregate isn't particularly great at all compared to Sonic 1's 90%, Sonic 2's 92% or Sonic 3 and Knuckles 97.5%.

Sonic Team must have some sort of pride, else they wouldn't have bounced back after Sonic 06 (which would have been the death knell for most other franchises). Generations average score is nothing compared to the classics and I'm pretty damn sure that Sonic Team has enough pride and passion to want to reach the same level of the classics.

At some point Sonic Team will probably realise that there isn't much more to be made of the current gameplay. Heck they may have realised it now, we don't know. Whether that means we may have a couple more games till the current gameplay has literally been stretched to its limits, or if Sonic Team is already designing new gameplay remains to be seen.

You can't really suggest though, that supporting a game that is as good as Generations is (you can't say that its a bad game) is going to prevent Sonic from achieving greatness. Most people who've played and enjoyed Generations, Colours or Unleashed, aren't ardent supporters of the gameplay - they probably couldn't care less. What they are supporting is a game that they perceived to be a good one.

[Diogenes]

Sonic Team must have some sort of pride, else they wouldn't have bounced back after Sonic 06 (which would have been the death knell for most other franchises).

I'm not sure that's pride so much as Sega going "oh god our most successful franchise is dying FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT"

Generations average score is nothing compared to the classics and I'm pretty damn sure that Sonic Team has enough pride and passion to want to reach the same level of the classics.

Yeah that sure does explain Sonic 4 and Generations Classic, huh...

You can't really suggest though, that supporting a game that is as good as Generations is (you can't say that its a bad game) is going to prevent Sonic from achieving greatness.

If not prevent, then slow down at least.

Most people who've played and enjoyed Generations, Colours or Unleashed, aren't ardent supporters of the gameplay - they probably couldn't care less. What they are supporting is a game that they perceived to be a good one.

They couldn't care less yet they think it's a good game?

[Johnny Boy]

I also find it a pet peeve that Eggman left Orbot and Cubot were left in the middle of space in Generations.

I also get a bit bummed that whenever Metal Shows up nowadays he can only communicate by making generic robot noises. How hard is it to just make him speak?

[Scar]

I'm not sure that's pride so much as Sega going "oh god our most successful franchise is dying FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT"

Pride must have had some factor, else Unleashed wouldn't have had the production values it did. Yes, the fact that SEGA needed their most successful franchise played a part too, undoubtedly.

Yeah that sure does explain Sonic 4 and Generations Classic, huh...

Being as great as the classics, doesn't mean being the classics.

And yes Generations Classic isn't the same as the actual Classics, but there is actual effort involved in its construction. Given the fact that Gens Classic runs off of heavily modified Modern Sonic Physics, I'd say the level designers did a good job of designing levels based off the mechanics they were given to mess around with. Its not 100% classic Sonic, but its nowhere near as lazily thrown together as Sonic 4. Frankly, at this point nobody short of Hirokazu Yasuhara himself could properly emulate the classic Sonic level design (seeing as he invented it), and its a bit ridiculous to suggest that the flaws in Gens Classic means that Sonic Team weren't trying to achieve the same standard.

Sonic 4 isn't even made by Sonic Team, so its not worth discussing unless Dimps makes the 3D games too.

If not prevent, then slow down at least.

The extent to which it slows down progress is yet to be seen.

They couldn't care less yet they think it's a good game?

Yes because they don't judge a game based on their perception of how deep or shallow the gameplay is. People enjoyed playing it, so to them its a good game. Is it that hard to understand?

[Kuzu]

.

No, but it doesn't equate to great either, and I'm not interested in settling for mediocre.

No one is saying you should, and in fact we shouldn't settle for anything less than great, but the fact is, greatness is subjective in this day and age, the games can definitely be better than they are but at the same time people are satisfied with they've got, that doesn't mean they're views don't matter simply because we have bigger thoughts.

[Diogenes]

Being as great as the classics, doesn't mean being the classics.

No, but they tried to be the classics, or at least tried to look like they were being the classics, and failed utterly. This is what their

and

amount to.

Given the fact that Gens Classic runs off of heavily modified Modern Sonic Physics, I'd say the level designers did a good job of designing levels based off the mechanics they were given to mess around with.

If the modern physics couldn't be modified to play like a classic Sonic game, yet they were still told to make it play like a classic Sonic game, someone fucked up hardcore. But I don't believe for a second that this is the best that could be done.

Frankly, at this point nobody short of Hirokazu Yasuhara himself could properly emulate the classic Sonic level design (seeing as he invented it),

Oh bull-fucking-shit. This is not some mystical lost formula, there are people who have done better in their spare time, with nothing more than MSPaint and a bootleg copy of Game Maker. That a team of supposed professionals can't figure out how a 20 year old game plays is a fucking embarrassment.

Sonic 4 isn't even made by Sonic Team, so its not worth discussing

If nothing else they had to sign off on it. They had to say "yes, this is okay, let's do this, slap a 'Sonic 4' logo on and send it out".

Yes because they don't judge a game based on their perception of how deep or shallow the gameplay is. People enjoyed playing it, so to them its a good game. Is it that hard to understand?

Yeah, it's hard to understand why people can care so little about why they enjoy (or didn't enjoy) a thing. Regardless, this is beside the point; if Sonic Team has something that works for them (that is, brings in the money and reputation), they're going to be more likely to stick to it, rather than risk losing it like they did before. That their current fanbase is made up of vegetables doesn't really factor in as long as the green keeps flowing.

[KHCast]

It seems to me you find it wrong and a bad thing that people have fun with games like unleashed and generations. That's what it sounds like to me at least. People have fun with all sorts of games that most people might find bad. So I don't know what the problem is.

[Diogenes]

When their support for those games will help keep this series in perpetual mediocrity (at best), yeah, I'm kind of bothered.

[Komodin]

Hm, I like the current Sonic gameplay. I guess I should feel bad for that... meh.

Anyway, I always found that the rocket-looking Metal Sonic 'bot from Sonic the Fighters's intro to be somewhat weird, especially since it only appeared in that cutscene. I kinda wanted to fight it, too...

[PerfectChaos]

But to the majority, it's NOT mediocre. So there's not really a problem just yet.

[Scar]

No, but they tried to be the classics, or at least tried to look like they were being the classics, and failed utterly. This is what their

and

amount to.

Yeah, I am well aware it wasn't perfect. Doesn't really mean anything in the context of improving does it?

If the modern physics couldn't be modified to play like a classic Sonic game, yet they were still told to make it play like a classic Sonic game, someone fucked up hardcore. But I don't believe for a second that this is the best that could be done.

It isn't the best that can be done, I'm sure.

Oh bull-fucking-shit. This is not some mystical lost formula, there are people who have done better in their spare time, with nothing more than MSPaint and a bootleg copy of Game Maker. That a team of supposed professionals can't figure out how a 20 year old game plays is a fucking embarrassment.

Oh really? Forgive my skepticsm here, but I really don't believe that to be true. Especially considering there isn't a fangame I've played which was anywhere near as good as the classics. After 15-20 years of disassembling, deconstructing and over-analysing every little facet of the classic Sonic gameplay and still no fangame maker can match the originals.

You know what, maybe you're right, maybe they didn't know exactly what they were doing when they were told to do classic Sonic gameplay, but does that mean that they're totally incapable of, or lack the will/pride to improve? I don't think that's the case, but I could be wrong. Who knows at this point.

If nothing else they had to sign off on it. They had to say "yes, this is okay, let's do this, slap a 'Sonic 4' logo on and send it out".

I would have thought that SEGA, the actual bosses, would have done that. As far as I'm concerned, Sonic Team names are there for no reason other than to pretty up the credits sequence.

Yeah, it's hard to understand why people can care so little about why they enjoy (or didn't enjoy) a thing. Regardless, this is beside the point; if Sonic Team has something that works for them (that is, brings in the money and reputation), they're going to be more likely to stick to it, rather than risk losing it like they did before. That their current fanbase is made up of vegetables doesn't really factor in as long as the green keeps flowing.

Really? Vegetables?

Wow.

[Kuzu]

I think Dio's problem with everyone's love for the "Boost games" is that it's mostly shallow love, most people will look at those games and simply think "ZOMG SAWNIK IS FAWST, BEST GAME EVAR" instead of actually dissecting and judging the game to it's much more successful predecessors. He's not saying they're bad games(....ok he is), but that people need to stop getting so caught up in the spectacle and actually critique the game.

I dunno, that's my perception anyway. I still enjoy the games despite their flaws.

[batson]

But to the majority, it's NOT mediocre. So there's not really a problem just yet.

I think the general consensus among game reviewers and (from what i can tell, anyway) among general gamers is that the newest Sonic games are "good, but nothing outstanding".

Edited July 14, 2012 by batson

[Semi-colon e]

I kind of resent the "if you like boost games you're a shallow idiot" attitude to be perfectly honest. It reeks of elitist "I'm better than you, stop liking what I don't like" stuff. It's like simplifying classic fans as "hurp durp nostalgia fag" or adventure fans as "you like fishing and treasure hunting because you don't know what a Sonic game is supposed to be".

I'm not saying you can't dislike the Modern games or whatever, but the jabs at those who do like them are just unclassy.

But I moan about the fanbase a lot so that kind of makes me a hypocrite so whatever, but I don't believe one type of fan specifically is dragging the series down.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Semi-colon e

[Kuzu]

I kind of resent the "if you like boost games you're a shallow idiot" attitude to be perfectly honest. It reeks of elitist "I'm better than you, stop liking what I don't like" stuff. It's like simplifying classic fans as "hurp durp nostalgia fag" or adventure fans as "you like fishing and treasure hunting because you don't know what a Sonic game is supposed to be".

I'm not saying don't like the Modern games or whatever, but the jabs at those who do are just unclassy.

Let's just say this fanbase has some entitlement issues.

[sonfan1984]

I enjoy Unleashed, Colors and Generations but I don't want them to continue on making games with the Unleashed gameplay.

But I guess I should feel bad about myself now cause that means I'm supporting 'mediocrity' cause some very bitter people on the internet doesn't like them.

Edited July 14, 2012 by sonfan1984

[neezTHEhuman]

But to the majority, it's NOT mediocre. So there's not really a problem just yet.

People who love the modern gamepla, next time you play through the 3D sections in any daytime Unleashed level and any Modern level from Generations that isn't Seaside Hill just understand and accept the fact that nearly all the spectacular events unfolding on the screen is mostly just the game playing itself and requires very little input from the player except some testing reaction time bullshit. Also just because Sonic goes so fast when you press the boost button: 'OMG fastest thing alive...throws in other cliches' doesn't mean Sonic is great again. Generations and Unleashed are better than '06 but that doesn't equal great or even good.

[PerfectChaos]

No-one here was saying the gameplay was fundamentally good. It's fundamentally flawed. We're saying it's fun. Generations was an improvement over Unleashed as it felt less stiff and linear, and had way more player interaction. That said, I do hope the formula gets some significant changes soon.

[neezTHEhuman]

Sonic isn't "back".

Yeah, sure, it's improved since '06 (honestly it'd be hard not to). The games no longer shit themselves if you look at them funny. But they really aren't good, and they really aren't Sonic. They've become (even moreso than before) vehicles for cheap speed and image-based entertainment at the expense of gameplay. They make the character fast, they throw in some platforms so they can justify calling it a platformer, they pad it with some gimmick, and they try really hard to make it look like you're doing awesome stuff...except you really aren't, you're just traveling along Sonic Team's sightseeing tour, pressing the right buttons to keep the jeep moving.

If Sonic's ever really going to be "back", he needs to provide a deeper experience than this. He needs gameplay that can handle the player making choices, not just the designers.

[Nepenthe]

How to get people to understand my position: adopt a holier-than-thou attitude, accuse other's acceptance and enjoyment of what I consider mediocrity to be both an inability to properly critique a video game as well an implicit admission that they would actually not like or accept anything better and are thus holding progress back, despite the fact that the onus should be on Sega to be making better games anyway. That always works.