Recurring Villains

[Rusty Spy]

Most people here seem to be missing the most obvious choice for a secondary, recurring villain: Metal Sonic! They just need to give him back his sentience, have him break free of Eggman's control, and viola, a great classic character that we are all already familiar with and attached to is upgraded as an ever cooler, independent supervillain.

You know, I consider Metal a prime example of a still fresh villain because of his rare appearances. If Metal Sonic went mainstream villain, he'd eventually become another one of the bunch. Sure having him appear again as a villain would be pretty sweet, but I'd rather it be a one time thing. He's a very delicate villain that could easily be quickly forgotten due to lack of exposure, or become irritating to many people and become the next "Shadow" because of overuse.

[redmenace]

Recurrent villains that can be re-used: Eggman (of course), Metal Sonic AND Mecha Sonic, GUN (Sonic doesn't care about authority, he does what he wants so a clash of ideals could happen), Shadow (yes, I think him being a good guy all the time just makes him redundant), even a Knuckles fight if he gets prissy at Sonic for something (for example, being the responsible for the ME being stolen or the Floating Island getting invaded).

[batson]

Well, the state Metal Sonic is in now is abysmal anyway. Despite being Eggman's supposed most advanced creation, he has less of a mind of his own than for instance the E-series robots and that "Ergo" guy (who can talk) and even your average Egg Pawn (who at least shows emotion). Metal Sonic is now more a tool than a character. And don't say that that is how he should be because that is how he came of as in the 2D games. While that might be true, the thing is that NO robots showed any kind of sentience back then. But as the franchise evolved story wise, so did the hench-bots personality wise. And it's unfair and idiotic that Metal Sonic alone should remain a mindless drone...

EDIT: Oh that's right: Mecha Sonic! If they want a mindless robot Sonic for Eggman to more or less control with a remote they can just use Mecha Sonic for that, since he was actually literally remote-controlled in his first appearance. Yeah, that's how it should be: Mecha Sonic = Eggmans mindless drone, Metal Sonic = an intelligent being with a mind and a will of it's own.

Edited May 25, 2009 by batson

[Blueblur1]

The team responsible for Sonic games is mostly compromised of newcomers nowadays. The developers that made the Genesis and Dreamcast Sonic games have moved on. Its pretty obvious that within the current Sonic Team there is no concern to maintain some kind of continuity in the main Sonic games aside from Sonic is good and Eggman is bad. With that said, its much easier to get the attention of your target demographic with flashy new characters (friends and enemies alike) than it is with old recurring characters. I think its safe to say that we should all expect more Sonic Unleashed and less Sonic Heroes as far as character usage is concerned.

Its a shame but its what any marketing department would tell you. Keep the big stars and ditch the secondary personalities.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Blueblur1

[Dr. Mechano]

Oh that's right: Mecha Sonic! If they want a mindless robot Sonic for Eggman to more or less control with a remote they can just use Mecha Sonic for that, since he was actually literally remote-controlled in his first appearance. Yeah, that's how it should be: Mecha Sonic = Eggmans mindless drone, Metal Sonic = an intelligent being with a mind and a will of it's own.

Why's it have to be like that?

Mecha could be intelligent, and choose to serve Eggman. See? Contrast.

It shows that sentience doesn't always lead to betrayal- Mecha could be the loyal counterpart of the traitorous Metal. Loyal of his own will, like many of Eggman's other robots. (Captain Whisker, Johnny, those random Egg Fighters in Unleashed, SA-55, etc.)

Edited May 25, 2009 by El Gran Gordo

[Gamma V]

I'd also like Metal Sonic to regain his independence. I think it would be interesting to actually make him a bad guy one can sympathize with on some level. Metal could view killing Sonic and ruling the world as a means of gaining the respect he feels he lacks. Maybe they could bring back Metal Knuckles as his greatest sympathizer.

[Thirsty Pocket]

I love it when villains can be as notorious and lovable as the Batman Rogues gallery. There will always be the number 1 ( Joker ) But the other villains can usually be an equal, if not bigger threat, and just because they aren't enemy numero uno, they are treated as if they are by the hero, and are loved by the fans instead of only thought as side characters ( Penguin, Riddler, Croc, Ivy, Harley, Mr. Freeze, ect. )

...Forgive the strange comparison... but I would love it if all my favorite game series had reccouring villains as lovable and well done as Batman's rogues gallery.

Dr. Robotnik should always be enemy number one, but it wouldn't hurt to see Metal Sonic doing things out on his own, or the return of Grand Battle Kuku and Witchcart ( I hate both those characters, but they could be re-written and designed to be much better... hey, it worked for Aran Ryan in Punch-Out!! ) Fang... well I never really saw him as a villain, but more of a thief who got mixed up in things and had to Fight Sonic and Eggman for his treasures.

Rouge, Omega, and The Babylon Rogues had potential to be villains, had they not completely walked the hero path... sort of... kind of... Not the pure evil villain, but the villain that's....well...hard to explain... They do not all that evil things... but it's seen as something the hero has to stop... i don't know.... ( more batman comparisons: Catwoman )

Really off topic feel free to ignore this part of my post, but I really wish this idea was also applied to my other favorite game series...

Mario (sticking to the mainstream that is... ) has Bowser, and lots of one shots that could have been great recurring villains, but most of them were scrapped, never to be used again... ( The only exception being Birdo and Tatanga, and even those two don't get much action.. and unfortunately, Fawful as well...) ...Then there's Zelda, that took a step in the right direction with Vaati and Dark Link, but they are still just puppets to Ganon in the end... I better stop myself here before my post is more unrelated than it is...

[redmenace]

The team responsible for Sonic games is mostly compromised of newcomers nowadays. The developers that made the Genesis and Dreamcast Sonic games have moved on. Its pretty obvious that within the current Sonic Team there is no concern to maintain some kind of continuity in the main Sonic games aside from Sonic is good and Eggman is bad. With that said, its much easier to get the attention of your target demographic with flashy new characters (friends and enemies alike) than it is with old recurring characters. I think its safe to say that we should all expect more Sonic Unleashed and less Sonic Heroes as far as character usage is concerned.

Its a shame but its what any marketing department would tell you. Keep the big stars and ditch the secondary personalities.

The truth is, Sonic 1 team to 2 was changed, S2 for S3&K isalso different, SA to SA2 was done differently as well, SA, Heroes and S06 were done by the same (pretty much), Shadow from the almost the same SA2, etc etc The team was never consistent in the first place, so you can't say it's changing teams that makes the story inconsistent.

The story was always inconsistent. Sonic 2 retconned 6 to 7 emeralds, Sonic CD came between Sonic 2 and Sonic 3, but it's obvious that either it was before Sonic 2 ever happened or after Sonic & Knuckles (I'm on the boat of being before, since there's no Tails and conquering a small piece of land sounds far less threatening than launching a doomsday device), Sonic 3 retconned Sonic 2, and the first was retconned by Knuckles about the Death Egg's destiny. SA retconned Amy's dress and I'm sure 06 showed the moon intact. There was never consistency in the first place in the main franchise, let alone throwing handhelds and spin-offs to the mix as well.

Mecha could be intelligent, and choose to serve Eggman. See? Contrast.

It shows that sentience doesn't always lead to betrayal- Mecha could be the loyal counterpart of the traitorous Metal. Loyal of his own will, like many of Eggman's other robots. (Captain Whisker, Johnny, those random Egg Fighters in Unleashed, SA-55, etc.)

I like this a lot. Edited May 25, 2009 by redmenace

[Viku]

I agree completly with El Gran Gordo's idea.

I wouldn't mind not seeing eggy as the final boss as he is pushed out of the spot by another villian. But the diference between that and the monster-of-the-Week is that is not Eggman's plan backfiring but someone ese who planned to use Eggman as a pawn in his game. (I don't count Metal Sonic in Heroes since he was in control since the beggining).

Kinda like in the Archie comics, there are plenty of other Evil Masterminds that can be at the same level as Robotnik.

Thats why I likes Erazor, Merlina and Ix, because they were new villians that, unlike Dark Gaia or Chaos, are able to interact, plan, and think as a character and not an entity. Sadly, this villians were one-shots and we will never heard of them again.

We need vilians like them who can appear in more games.

That's why I still hope for Nega to appear in a home console's game...his calculating love of desruction would be awesome in future games.

[Thirsty Pocket]

Not a big fan of the villains in the comics and shows except for maybe Naugus and Mammoth Mogul...

[Kamicciolo]

I'd think it'd be really interesting to see some newer enemies alongside Eggman (and Nega), would help to even up the numbers between heroes and villians (right now it seems like its 20-odd against... 2 ) .

One thing that would really spice things up though would be enemies for others characters beside Sonic, like say reviving this Wendy Witchcart character and make her Tails' enemy, or (and this is just made up here) a rogue Eggman robot, maybe outcast as useless, that tries to steal the Master Emerald from Knuckles so it can prove it's not useless.

But, as everyone else has said, if there were new villians at least still keep Eggman at the top of the chain, cause its bad enough the treatment he gets of the "Monster of the Week", imagine what it would be like with other villians pushing him around (thinking about it, it'd probably lead to a direct attack on Sega )

[Dr. Mechano]

To steer away from the "giant monster" type of villain, I wouldn't mind some more supervillain archetypes- Eggman's got the "mad scientist" role down to a tee (And Nega has a far more psychotic variant thereof), and other "themed" villains could be interesting. (Eggman as the "science villain", Witchcart as a "magic villain", Fang simply as a common thief, and perhaps new characters who'll become recurring for other themed varieties of evil.)

I find such characters have more personality potential than, as Eggman eloquently put it, a "stupid beast" would.

[The-Master-Board]

I whole heartedly agree with this idea.

The recurring villain to good guy ratio is severly unbalanced, plus this would be a great way to push for my fav character to make a comeback, and not a forced entry like most new characters, but rather filling a needed role.

It is true that monsters of the week have become utterly without a doubt hated/expected/stale with fans. They are lame, boring, overused and have no personality, pretty much contributing nothing to the Sonic series other than the (expeceted) excuse to get Sonic "super" at the end of every game.

With the addition of the Monster-of-the-week archtype, we not only lost Eggman as the full villain he could be, but lost all that good drama and exchange of personalities for our final fight. Sonic can barely tease a giant monster that doesn't get infuriated and splutter insults back.

An addition of a villain gallery would serve to add more depth to the series, and more personality not only to these other villains, but to Sonic and Eggman alike. Just imagine Eggman having Sonic finally beat, about to capture him when Nack steps in firing off his guns saying "Sorry, can't let you do that. GUN have paid me handsomely to keep this one safe from you bub" then Eggman spluttering uncontrollably whilst facing off with Nack while Sonic (not looking impressed) tries to get their attention complaining as to why GUN is keeping tabs on him, let alone why he of all persons needs to be protected.

Makes for a nice little comedy thing, and you get to see new interactions; we've all seen Eggman and Sonic interact, but how would Eggman interact with another villain, or Sonic with a threat that wasn't Eggman related - maybe both Sonic and Eggman breaking into hysterical fits of laughter when Bean crashes their duel and makes a fool of himself.

Personally I'd like to see Nack as a villain, maybe more of a gun for hire mercenary, with no morales in it for the money and only himself, just a big sleaze...but a type of villain nonetheless. Kind of what the Chaotix are to the heroes, Nack could be for the villains; someone to hire to do (usually) bad jobs, or a guy that shows up to make trouble for both hero and villain alike.

Bean and Bark could show up, I kind of like the idea that they are oddball badguys, not really in it for power or money, just there for laughs and because they are.

I never really knew what Witchcart was....was she a witch? But I could see her reimagined as a kind of magic using badguy, maybe bring in Tails Doll as her minion, like a voodoo controlled minion-type counterpart, Witchcarts answer to a Metal Sonic?

Just my thoughts, but I don't really see any downside to doing this idea.

[BlazingTales]

Monster of the Week isn't nessesarally a bad thing, just as long as it's done right:

SA- This was fine because it was new and fresh to the series.

SA2- This was also fine because they mixed it up and didn't introduce it until the end.

SH- This was where it started to get old, Metal Sonic was a bit too much like Chaos (Eggman made/found a monster, it rebelled).

S06- Once again, a bit old. Although it does get points for being 1 and two halves of a monster.

SU- WAY too similar to SA.

I'm a bit against the idea of rotating villians because then Eggman would only show up at the end or not at all. Eggy deserves to play a major role in every main-series Sonic game. He's has done as much work as Sonic in forming the series, and deserves his chance to shine in every game. Also, how would they explain the Doctor's absence?

One thing I like about the Sonic series is that Eggman is always there. For instance, as much as I love the Spyro series, I don't like how sometimes Ripto's there, sometimes he's not. I like consitancy.

I'm not entirely against it though. I like what Sonic Rush Adventure did, have a minion of the Doc be the main villian, but once you beat him you find out who's the real threat. Perhaps add a few more villians, and you've got yourself a rotating cast of minor villians under the Doctor's control!

[Rusty Spy]

I'm not entirely against it though. I like what Sonic Rush Adventure did, have a minion of the Doc be the main villian, but once you beat him you find out who's the real threat. Perhaps add a few more villians, and you've got yourself a rotating cast of minor villians under the Doctor's control!

Sounds alright, until that gets old after being as predictable as the MotW.

[BlazingTales]

Sounds alright, until that gets old after being as predictable as the MotW.

It doesn't even have to be a secret. It could be like Shadow was to Sonic in SA2. Shadow was Sonic's main boss during the main story mode. You could have Eggman hire/create some random villian guy, Sonic tries to stop that villian from whatever chaos he's causing, and meanwhile, Eggman carries out his plans since Sonic's occupied. After Sonic beats Mr. Eggman Robot/Person, Sonic has to deal with the final threat: The Doctor himself. Add some new villians/rivals, plans, and plots each game and you've got yourself a re-usable yet interesting storyline.

[Badnik Zero]

Or even Knuckles. The end of the classic era was pretty varied in its bad guys.

Eggman was the boss at the end of the zone, Knuckles was the sabotage guy waiting at the end of each zone. Then in Knuckles' story, the Egg-Robo was an alternate Eggman boss. In Triple Trouble Nack was the special stage boss, and in Chaotix Metal Sonic played a big part as a secondary villain. They had all those angles covered, it was pretty good, looking back on it.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Badnikz

[SchemingMinor]

You know the one villain who I didn't see being mentioned throughout this topic? Ix. Ix was something new in the constant rotation of 'Godzilla throwbacks" and tag along villains. Ix was the first animal to be placed in the villain status since Nack (or Rouge and Shadow if you count their agreement to 'Team Dark' in SA2.) While he did suffer the cliche of "overpowered overlord who wants to take over the world" Ix was a contrast to the robots, monsters, aliens, and humans that flanked the series. This created a new problem, especially for Knuckles since he wanted to "redeem" him and "make him see the light". This was all about social conflicts and personal leanings.

[Dr. Mechano]

You know the one villain who I didn't see being mentioned throughout this topic? Ix. Ix was something new in the constant rotation of 'Godzilla throwbacks" and tag along villains. Ix was the first animal to be placed in the villain status since Nack (or Rouge and Shadow if you count their agreement to 'Team Dark' in SA2.) While he did suffer the cliche of "overpowered overlord who wants to take over the world" Ix was a contrast to the robots, monsters, aliens, and humans that flanked the series. This created a new problem, especially for Knuckles since he wanted to "redeem" him and "make him see the light". This was all about social conflicts and personal leanings.

I also liked how, despite Eggman being the "secondary villain" of Chronicles, he was technically more succesful in his villainy than Ix was, what with the world conquest and all- All this on top of playability!

Shows main villain status isn't everything, and that the secondary villain is still an important role.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Oh that's right: Mecha Sonic! If they want a mindless robot Sonic for Eggman to more or less control with a remote they can just use Mecha Sonic for that, since he was actually literally remote-controlled in his first appearance. Yeah, that's how it should be: Mecha Sonic = Eggmans mindless drone, Metal Sonic = an intelligent being with a mind and a will of it's own.

I despised Metal's betrayal of the Doctor. At least Gamma had a long, intricate plot with revelation Beta-dismemberment and Amy-lectures and flicky-families to justify it. What's Metal Sonic got? NOTHIN'. It just smacked of villain decay TO THE FACE for Robotnik to fail to keep his most powerful lieutenant in line. The intelligent-enough-to-be-sentient-but-twisted-enough-to-serve-Robotnik angle is methinks far better for the droid. Maybe he's just a little too independent, in that he sometimes disobeys the letter of his creator's orders in order to fly off and smash Sonic himself.

While the earlier mentions of "marketing departments do not recycle characters!" certainly hold some water, don't forget they did resurrect Chaotix rather than new character-ing for Heroes... and the Nocturnus are the Dark Legion from Archie. They could easily bring back something like the Battle Kukkus to fill in some completly new plot niche; maybe playing China to GUN's America in the Sonic world narrative.

On top of that you've got the Nocturnus and Nega and Erazor and Merlina skulking around in the interdimensional shadows, rogue agents like Witchcart and Rouge and Nack and Shadow and Chaos and Omega and Gemerl causing intermittant mayhem for their own ends, and Robotnik sat Metropolis manipulatin' about and periodicly unleashing wave after wave after wave of robotnic death on everyone.

I never really knew what Witchcart was....was she a witch? But I could see her reimagined as a kind of magic using badguy, maybe bring in Tails Doll as her minion, like a voodoo controlled minion-type counterpart, Witchcarts answer to a Metal Sonic?

A fic on that very topic, wouldn't ya know.

Incidentally, I don't think she could actually use magic. We never see her "turn dissenters into crystal", despite her claims. I imagined that she was just off her head insane and believed that riding around on one of Eggman's old weaponised mine carts actually made her a despot.

[Badnik Zero]

You know the one villain who I didn't see being mentioned throughout this topic? Ix.

I liked Ix a lot, and of course Bioware would be the ones to bring a great villain like him along. He's incredibly crafty at coming to power over the residents of the Twilight Cage. He also differs from Robotnik in that he's seeking to return to the world, which by all accounts his people were stolen from. The thing is, he hasn't learned from his time in the Cage, and wants to dominate the world again. Sinister motives. A little more complicated than what we've seen in the story before.

Argus is likely some kind of cosmic entity obsessed with creating the perfect race of beings, by placing the most dangerous of them in close proximity, in a survival of the fittest scenario. Maybe to create something like himself? Bioware can get pretty twisted with these storylines. Oh man, I love those guys.

Since Chronicles is a story driven series, it's perfect for bringing new villains to the mix. In fact, I predict that we'll see new GUN enemies in the next Chronicles game. Under stress, I'd expect them to try and appease Eggman, much like a Vichy France sort of situation, where you're either a collaborator or a member of the underground. There's so much potential in Chronicles. I'm a bit disappointed that it exists so far outside regular game canon.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Badnikz

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Since Chronicles is a story driven series, it's perfect for bringing new villains to the mix. In fact, I predict that we'll see new GUN enemies in the next Chronicles game. Under stress, I'd expect them to try and appease Eggman, much like a Vichy France sort of situation, where you're either a collaborator or a member of the underground. There's so much potential in Chronicles. I'm a bit disappointed that it exists so far outside regular game canon.

Not to derail, but I really don't understand where people get this from. What at all is there in Chronicles to suggest that it is distinct from "the rest of" game canon? The fact that it bothers to tie itself in with Battle, characterises carefully (and awesomely), has an entire Codex devoted to telling you HOW the storyline of previous games fits together, and is actually story-driven (as opposed to the story merely being something to wrap around the gameplay, as was the standard case in pretty much all the Sonic games pre-S3), makes it if anything the most canonical Sonic game evar.

No?

Edited May 25, 2009 by Frozen Nitrogen

[Dr. Mechano]

Not to derail, but I really don't understand where people get this from. What at all is there in Chronicles to suggest that it is distinct from "the rest of" game canon? The fact that it bothers to tie itself in with Battle, characterises carefully (and awesomely), has an entire Codex devoted to telling you HOW the storyline of previous games fits together, and is actually story-driven (as opposed to the story merely being something to wrap around the gameplay, as was the standard case in pretty much all the Sonic games pre-S3), makes it if anything the most canonical Sonic game evar.

No?

Some of the codex were just plain wrong. Like "Sonic and Shadow teamed up to stop Eggman" in SA2.

Or how about Eggman never thinking he'd be teaming up with Sonic before, disregarding all their past truces?

How about the heroes wanting Eggman dead? (When, in Rush, Sonic clearly says harming Eggman is too harsh)

Sorry to steer too far off topic, but Chronicles has a lot of bits that simply do not line up with the rest of the game series.

[redmenace]

I despised Metal's betrayal of the Doctor. At least Gamma had a long, intricate plot with revelation Beta-dismemberment and Amy-lectures and flicky-families to justify it. What's Metal Sonic got? NOTHIN'. It just smacked of villain decay TO THE FACE for Robotnik to fail to keep his most powerful lieutenant in line. The intelligent-enough-to-be-sentient-but-twisted-enough-to-serve-Robotnik angle is methinks far better for the droid. Maybe he's just a little too independent, in that he sometimes disobeys the letter of his creator's orders in order to fly off and smash Sonic himself.

I didn't despise it, because I think Metal is really as messed up as he looks like. Eggman made him to Sonic's image, he even races against Sonic in CD, not battles him like Mecha Sonic does in 2 and Knuckles. Mecha was the designed killing machine, Metal was the somewhat homage Eggman did of his enemy. That messed up his circuit board when he slowly starts noticing and he doesn't like it. So yeah, he decides he's going to be the real Sonic and show Eggman and everyone else they're wrong, he's just not another copy.

While the earlier mentions of "marketing departments do not recycle characters!" certainly hold some water, don't forget they did resurrect Chaotix rather than new character-ing for Heroes... and the Nocturnus are the Dark Legion from Archie. They could easily bring back something like the Battle Kukkus to fill in some completly new plot niche; maybe playing China to GUN's America in the Sonic world narrative.

I agree in the Heroes part, but not the Chronicles. It was made by different teams altogether fpr a start. Sure they could appear in Chronicles 2 though. but I don't think SEGA would pay royalties for the Chronicles characters at all either for the main franchise. They're copyrighted to Bioware I think, and if SEGA has to pay huge ammounts just to use Green Hill Zone music, the most recognizable music in the franchise perhaps and they hardly ever do it, they'll certainly won't pay anything for a bunch of characters of a niche series that received lukewarm sales.

Edited May 25, 2009 by redmenace

[Badnik Zero]

I didn't despise it, because I think Metal is really as messed up as he looks like ... ... ... So yeah, he decides he's going to be the real Sonic and show Eggman and everyone else they're wrong, he's just not another copy.

It could have been developed a LOT more. Metal does nothing openly in that game and says almost nothing. Reading your post made me realize that Heroes is the first game the Shadow Androids appear in. A copy of Sonic freaking out over his purpose, just as a new Hedgehog model is on the line? They could have used that to fix his problem of motive. It's right there in the game!

What at all is there in Chronicles to suggest that it is distinct from "the rest of" game canon?

I understand that what was slightly wrong in the codex isn't exactly game wrecking or retconning. My issue with it is the vacation Sonic takes after Eggman's disappearance, and the time lapse at the end of the game. Sonic and his world don't age, and if they're taking those drastic steps forward to set up their story, they've essentially written themselves out of canon. Otherwise we need room for four years of adventuring for Sonic and friends, and there's nowhere in canon to place those events.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Badnikz