Would you miss the Boost?

[Diogenes]

It is a slight against a supposedly fast character for his highest speeds to be entirely and completely dependent on going downhill or through the use of a contraption, especially when every other character is privy to this same ability as well.

You're going to have to explain this one in more detail, because it doesn't make a damn bit of sense at this point. Top Speed+More Speed=Faster seems like a perfectly reasonable equation where I stand.

Considering the reception and sales at the time, he was pretty great in the Adventure era too.

Residual goodwill, mostly. Worth noting that they're also the only two 3D games where they made any attempt to incorporate the Genesis gameplay.

Which is something we can have without completely dismantling modern gameplay. Uncap Sonic's speed and allow gravity and inclines to have an effect on him even when he's boosting. Seems like an easily-solvable issue.

Unless you're severely nerfing the boost, this would be reaching unplayable speeds (considering the modern games are edging on this as it is). And even if you did, the rest of the modern gameplay is still a mess.

You could get away with this by simply capping Sonic's speed or by implementing a run button.

A run button, now there's something I haven't suggested incorporating into the Genesis gameplay several times...

But if you can climb a hill at top speed just by holding a button, what is the point of the hill?

The only levels capable of this kind of gameplay are usually the first acts in the game where there's little in the way of steep inclines, walls, steps, puzzles, contraptions to use, and elements to wade through that will stop you from going forward. But I seriously doubt anyone here wants any future game to be composed of rehashes of Green Hill Act 1.

But DKCR and Rayman Origins can have actual gameplay elements in addition to "sustained momentum", yes? What's preventing Sonic, operating under some form of the classic gameplay, from having them?

So I'm a simple person because I like the boost? That's some nice logic right there.

When your evaluation of a game mechanic pretty much comes down to "i like fast", yeah.

Boosting adds that one element that was missing from the genesis days, speed.

Are you fucking joking.

I think that the only reason that the spin dash worked from 2-s3&k, was because it was done from the sidescroller perspective (like in generations classic game play).

Explain.

Unless you are hinting that you just want Sonic games to be played from that perspective,

No.

I find that the only way to play Sonic from the 3D viewpoint is via boost.

That's because you aren't thinking beyond the games that already exist. No shit the Adventures are boring now, even ignoring that they're bogged down with random filler they barely even scratch the surface of what Sonic offers in 3D, and instead they rely on dash pads and scripted loops. If that's all you expect out of 3D Sonic it's no wonder you prefer making that flashy patch job the entire game.

[Autosaver]

To be fair, the boost in Generations did add a lot of speed compared to what we got with Sonic Heroes and Sonic Adventure.

[Silencer226]

I'll take tighter controls over the floaty boost anytime.

[Penny]

When your evaluation of a game mechanic pretty much comes down to "i like fast", yeah.

Again, that's some nice logic.

I like speed in my Sonic games. Is that simple? Yes. Does that make me (as in, my whole self) simple? No, it honestly doesn't.

[Diogenes]

To be fair, the boost in Generations did add a lot of speed compared to what we got with Sonic Heroes and Sonic Adventure.

Yeah, with the unfortunate side effect of making the gameplay shallow as shit, no surprise when they take the laziest path to do so. Here's what 3D Sonic games are now.

[Autosaver]

I'll take tighter controls over the floaty boost anytime.

Last time I played Sonic Heroes the controls were not tight. I felt like I was skidding on ice the entire game.

@Diogenes

I don't know, I think Sonic Colors (mostly) had a lot of platforming mixed with the boost speed. Same with Generations. There were a ton of platforming sections that stopped it from being "Boost to win!". I've got to admit though, Unleashed wasn't too good in that department.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Autosaver

[Diogenes]

Sticking some third-rate platforming in between the boost sections doesn't make them any less shallow.

[Alluusio]

BUT this question I feel is a bit off.. as simply removing the boost doesn't fix the problem. Try playing sonic unleash without the boost.... I don't think you'll get too far. The level design makes it so, tho honestly....

That's because the levels were designed around the boost. Of course they wouldn't be much fun without it. I didn't find too much enjoyment out of them even while boosting. If they were to remove the boost, they would change the level design as well so that isn't really a concern.

Again, that's some nice logic.

I like speed in my Sonic games. Is that simple? Yes. Does that make me (as in, my whole self) simple? No, it honestly doesn't.

I like speed in my Sonic games as well. Doesn't mean that's all I want from them though. The current formula is good for giving cheap, quick thrills but doesn't offer much replayability. Once you figure out the fastest route, that's the only one you'll end up taking and each run of the stage is more or less the same as the previous one. Colors did mix things up a bit with the Wisps and had more expansive stages which were filled with secrets, thus giving you a reason to come back to the stages. And the levels weren't really designed around the boost either, making the levels a bit more interesting.

[Phos]

It is a slight against a supposedly fast character for his highest speeds to be entirely and completely dependent on going downhill or through the use of a contraption, especially when every other character is privy to this same ability as well. You're right; inclines and gravity tend to increase the speed of something. My out-of-shape self could probably gain some serious on-foot speeds running down a steep-enough hill if I were so inclined to risk my life doing that. Doesn't mean I'm Olympic material, or even generically "fast." It just means I was close to falling and my speed increased as a result. Nothing remarkable about it.

It'd be pretty strange if Sonic was unable to go faster downhill than he could on the level. Oh wait, that's not exactly right. It is pretty strange that Sonic can't go faster downhill than he can on the level. The angle of the ground having no impact on top speed really messes with how the environment can interact with Sonic. Besides, just because he goes faster downhill doesn't mean he can't go fast on the level.

The only levels capable of this kind of gameplay are usually the first acts in the game where there's little in the way of steep inclines, walls, steps, puzzles, contraptions to use, and elements to wade through that will stop you from going forward. But I seriously doubt anyone here wants any future game to be composed of rehashes of Green Hill Act 1.

Just going fast in a straight line isn't the only way for a game to be fast. I've always thought of flying battery zone as a fast level even though there isn't that much top speed stuff.

[Nepenthe]

You're going to have to explain this one in more detail, because it doesn't make a damn bit of sense at this point. Top Speed+More Speed=Faster seems like a perfectly reasonable equation where I stand.

And a platforming character being able to reach his own top speed irrelevant of the level design is also a perfectly reasonable statement and industry practice. My preference for this choice over the other comes down to a personal ideal I hold that Sonic should be at his fastest of his own accord for characterization's sake. This is the absolute easiest way I can explain myself.

Residual goodwill, mostly.

Them being great "at the time" can't possibly be residual goodwill.

Unless you're severely nerfing the boost, this would be reaching unplayable speeds (considering the modern games are edging on this as it is).

Does it really matter when you were never actually obligated to do anything other than watch the show while rolling on inclines designed to give you ridiculous speeds in the first place?

But if you can climb a hill at top speed just by holding a button, what is the point of the hill?

Hills can signal changes in the area of a stage, lock you into a danger zone, provide a simple progressing challenge, or allow the character to use the incline to rebound at will. I mean, why in the world do you think hills exist in non-classic Sonic platformers???

But DKCR and Rayman Origins can have actual gameplay elements in addition to "sustained momentum", yes? What's preventing Sonic, operating under some form of the classic gameplay, from having them?

The same thing that's preventing Sonic from being successful with a boost mechanic: absolutely nothing. This question comes down to preference.

It'd be pretty strange if Sonic was unable to go faster downhill than he could on the level. Oh wait, that's not exactly right. It is pretty strange that Sonic can't go faster downhill than he can on the level. The angle of the ground having no impact on top speed really messes with how the environment can interact with Sonic. Besides, just because he goes faster downhill doesn't mean he can't go fast on the level.

It's really not all that strange if we think of locked speed as merely a basic characteristic of platforming rather than some wretched anomaly. I'm also not saying an incline-based effect on his speed will impact how fast he is on the level. Really, I'm not even saying developing such a physics system is wrong. My main goal here is to successfully argue that it's perfectly valid for other platforming mechanics to exist in this series that aren't inherently classic, and subsequently that the idea that the only way to have a fun Sonic game is if it's classically-oriented is somewhat narrow-minded.

I've always thought of flying battery zone as a fast level even though there isn't that much top speed stuff.

There's a few sections in Flying Battery that allow you to reach some pretty ridiculous speeds anyway. It slows down when you reach areas like the propeller section, but that doesn't exclude the existence of those booster-heavy areas.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Autosaver]

Eh, I don't know. A lot of people felt the speed in the classics were more rewarding overall as you gained speed by successfully accelerating. If you didn't gain enough speed, you would fall to lower paths with less goodies and secrets.

Boost means you can just step back, tap, and reach that same area without even trying.

[Xenos]

Honestly the only thing keeping the Boost and how Sonic plays the way they are is Sonic Team themselves.

The thought of a character like Sonic having access to the speed he is said to have at a press of a single button isn't a problem per say, as it is how it's executed. I think I've already mentioned an idea of how to mix the boost with the Classic gameplay without both hindering the other.

It's all execution. There isn't anything keeping the Modern gameplay, boost included, from being great alone.

[TheOcelot]

Honestly the only thing keeping the Boost and how Sonic plays the way they are is Sonic Team themselves.

The thought of a character like Sonic having access to the speed he is said to have at a press of a single button isn't a problem per say, as it is how it's executed. I think I've already mentioned an idea of how to mix the boost with the Classic gameplay without both hindering the other.

It's all execution. There isn't anything keeping the Modern gameplay, boost included, from being great alone.

How about having a fully charged boost gauge at the start of a level. However, limit the use of the boost by not allowing the boost gauge to replenish once. So once you have run out of boost that's it. Just an idea.

Would certainly make speed runs and time attack more interesting.

Edited August 5, 2012 by MilesKnightwing

[Xenos]

I was thinking more of this:

We still have the boost gauge, but it isn't filled up with anything you get from enemies, rings, etc. It's filled by breaking a set speed cap and holding over that speed for a period of time will fill it for that equal amount of time.

Let's say that Sonic's max speed without any help is a bit below the Speed Cap. The only way for it to fill is for Sonic to break the speed cap via using the environment around him and utilizing the physics of his rolling abilities.

It gives players incentive to learn how to adapt to the environment so they can get some leeway with the boost. (And as the stages get harder, the boost gauge gets harder to fill of course)

So when you don't have the boost you can still use the Spin-dash and roll.

[Jack / Joker]

No. A humble SpinDash down a hill leading to a big ramp with Rings at the top is more satisfying than a big blue rocket tearing through everything and launching Sonic into a pit. Sonic is a hedgehog and he was designed that way because Hedgehogs can roll, something he does less and less with every game.

[Psychic Hedgehog]

I don't mind the boost, as long as the level design isn't so "boost-centric". Unleashed pretty much made you hold the boost all the time and I hated that. Generations got it right, though - you can use it, but this time, you have to be skilled to use it effectively over platforming.

And am I the only one who kinda... doesn't like the 3D spindash? Needs moar momentum.

[Phos]

It's really not all that strange if we think of locked speed as merely a basic characteristic of platforming rather than some wretched anomaly. I'm also not saying an incline-based effect on his speed will impact how fast he is on the level. Really, I'm not even saying developing such a physics system is wrong. My main goal here is to successfully argue that it's perfectly valid for other platforming mechanics to exist in this series that aren't inherently classic, and subsequently that the idea that the only way to have a fun Sonic game is if it's classically-oriented is somewhat narrow-minded.

Well, even Mario can slide down hills. Not responding to sloped surfaces in actions games of whatever sort has always seemed to me like something that should have fallen out of fashion as far back as the SNES... But then you have games like Skyrim where you can run up 70 degree slopes because the game has no climbing mechanic and then someone makes a comic about it.

There's a few sections in Flying Battery that allow you to reach some pretty ridiculous speeds anyway. It slows down when you reach areas like the propeller section, but that doesn't exclude the existence of those booster-heavy areas.

FBZ has a few speed boosters, but there's about four textbook examples in the whole zone. The rest is a lot of other ways for a game to be fast I bring up.

Honestly the only thing keeping the Boost and how Sonic plays the way they are is Sonic Team themselves.

The thought of a character like Sonic having access to the speed he is said to have at a press of a single button isn't a problem per say, as it is how it's executed. I think I've already mentioned an idea of how to mix the boost with the Classic gameplay without both hindering the other.

It's all execution. There isn't anything keeping the Modern gameplay, boost included, from being great alone.

I'm thinking the changes to make this current style both workable from a development POV and make it a fun game would leave it changed past the point of recognisability, boost or not. For reference, the current style I find to be subjectively not fun (albeit for very reasons that seem very persuasive) and objectively not workable. Generations wasn't much longer than, say, NiGHTS into Dreams... but possess very little replay value.

[Kuzu]

I honestly can't see the current gameplay being changed to accommodate slower speeds, simply because the entire basis of the Modern gameplay is going fast, take that out, it's not really the Modern gameplay anymore, it's something else entirely. Basically, if people want change so badly, they need to be willing to let go of the Modern gameplay so something new can be done, otherwise I'm pretty sure we're not going to get anything better than Generations, which is already pretty lack luster despite it's refined gameplay. I'm all for consistency when it comes to gameplay, but not if that gameplay is incredibly simple, and requires very little thinking and effort on my part as the player, so people may like it, but I don't and I don't think those people would be all that upset if the games actually made them think outside the box instead of just pressing a button and letting the game do the rest of the work.

[Nepenthe]

Well, even Mario can slide down hills. Not responding to sloped surfaces in actions games of whatever sort has always seemed to me like something that should have fallen out of fashion as far back as the SNES... But then you have games like Skyrim where you can run up 70 degree slopes because the game has no climbing mechanic and then someone makes a comic about it.

Having a locked speed does not eliminate the possibility of slopes having reactions on the character. Rayman can run up a 90-degree cliff face forever with no adverse effects on his speed or momentum, but jumping from or falling on a slope still has an effect on his positioning and subsequently how the player has to respond to it in order to progress.

FBZ has a few speed boosters, but there's about four textbook examples in the whole zone. The rest is a lot of other ways for a game to be fast I bring up.

It's those four textbook examples that make the level fast in a layman's sense, but what other ways specifically are you referring to?

I honestly can't see the current gameplay being changed to accommodate slower speeds, simply because the entire basis of the Modern gameplay is going fast, take that out, it's not really the Modern gameplay anymore, it's something else entirely.

I would suggest playing all three games again if you think that it is conceptually and technically impossible for them to accommodate slower speeds and platforming, especially Colors, because this exaggeration that every single modern level is 100% speed, just literal straight lines with no obstacles for you to encounter and take your time with, seems to be becoming more and more accepted as some kind of fact, and it just blows my mind every time someone says this.

[Kuzu]

I would suggest playing all three games again if you think that it is conceptually and technically impossible for them to accommodate slower speeds and platforming, especially Colors, because this exaggeration that every single modern level is 100% speed, just literal straight lines with no obstacles for you to encounter and take your time with, seems to be becoming more and more accepted as some kind of fact, and it just blows my mind every time someone says this.

Yeah, and ya know what's left if you take the speed out? Boring as fuck platforming with little to no innovation in the levels, or boring ass homing attack chains. The reason that stigma is prevalent is because the gameplay barely has anything going for it outside of speed, what else are people going to focus their attention on? The reflexive parts of the gameplay don't count because they are a by-product of the speed based portions, the Wisp are gimmicks which apply mostly to Colors. So please tell me, what is so masterfully interesting about the Modern levels that aren't based within the context of how fast you're going?

[Nepenthe]

Yeah, and ya know what's left if you take the speed out? Boring as fuck platforming with little to no innovation in the levels, or boring ass homing attack chains. The reason that stigma is prevalent is because the gameplay barely has anything going for it outside of speed, what else are people going to focus their attention on?

Here's a question I don't think anyone's ever bothered to ask: Is the platforming's quality a result of Sonic Team's developmental skills or an intrinsic quality of the modern gameplay? If it were the latter, it'd be easy to assume that merely getting rid of the gameplay style would automatically improve the platforming as a natural consequence. Of course, this is completely nonsense. We've had plenty of non-modern Sonic platform games with truly shit platforming, so clearly the problem stems from Sonic Team's and Dimps' skills as developers. Thus the platforming being boring has a very, very simple solution (at least on paper) that's more sensible and less costly than throwing everything they've created the fuck out:

Don't make it boring.

The reflexive parts of the gameplay don't count because they are a by-product of the speed based portions, the Wisp are gimmicks which apply mostly to Colors.

The reflexive parts of the gameplay do count as platforming insomuch as the rolling mechanics count as platforming. Reacting of your own accord to the obstacles around you in order to progress- whether vertically, horizontally, or around a curve- is in essence platforming.

Also, how do the Wisps being exclusive mean the modern gameplay cannot accomodate platforming??? Your qualifiers make no sense.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Kuzu]

Here's a question I don't think anyone's ever bothered to ask: Is the platforming's quality a result of Sonic Team's developmental skills or an intrinsic quality of the modern gameplay? If it were the latter, it'd be easy to assume that merely getting rid of the gameplay style would automatically improve the platforming as a natural consequence. Of course, this is completely nonsense. We've had plenty of non-modern Sonic platform games with truly shit platforming, so clearly the problem stems from Sonic Team's and Dimps' skills as developers. Thus the platforming being boring has a very, very simple solution (at least on paper) that's more sensible and less costly than throwing everything they've created the fuck out:

Don't make it boring.

Yeah, they already did that, and ya know what they came up with:

The reflexive parts of the gameplay do count as platforming insomuch as the rolling mechanics count as platforming. Reacting of your own accord to the obstacles around you in order to progress- whether vertically, horizontally, or around a curve- is in essence platforming.

The difference being one relies more on trial and error, while another relies more on the player's choices and decisions.

Also, how do the Wisps being exclusive mean the modern gameplay cannot accomodate platforming??? Your qualifiers make no sense.

I said it doesn't accommodate innovative platforming, without the Wisp, Colors is literally just square blocks and mostly linear pathways. That is not the type of platforming I associate with Sonic, nor is it the type of platforming this series should be striving for.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Ragna the Bloodedge

[Nepenthe]

Yeah, they already did that, and ya know what they came up with:

Videos are not arguments.

But do you only believe that a Sonic game can be fun if it's a classic game, and that any ideas that would not inherently fit the design of those games are lesser? If the answer is yes, then this conversation is pointless.

The difference being one relies more on trial and error, while another relies more on the player's choices and decisions.

What does this have to do with whether or not the modern gameplay has platforming?

I said it doesn't accommodate innovative platforming, without the Wisp, Colors is literally just square blocks and mostly linear pathways. That is not the type of platforming I associate with Sonic, nor is it the type of platforming this series should be striving for.

No, you said that the Wisps don't count as platforming in general because they're exclusive gimmicks to one game.

And again, I posit my question: Can the modern gameplay not possibly accomodate "innovative" platforming, or is Sonic Team simply an inadequate developer? We should all really strive to answer this question before advocating a firestorm, because if the problem truly resides on Sonic Team's end in terms of their ability to develop engaging platforming, then you're not even close to solving the problem if you're just advocating changing the gameplay completely. Shit from a cow's not inherently better than shit from a horse.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Kuzu]

Videos are not arguments.

But do you only believe that a Sonic game can be fun if it's a classic game, and that any ideas that would not inherently fit the design of those games are lesser? If the answer is yes, then this conversation is pointless.

I never said that, you said Sonic Team need to make the platforming interesting, but they've already done that with the Classic Gameplay so logic would dictate they use that as a basis, I mean you're asking them to find an answer that's literally right in front of their faces. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

What does this have to do with whether or not the modern gameplay has platforming?

I said BORING platforming, non-intuitive platforming, I never there's no platforming, but that the platforming that's there is incredibly simple and leaves much to be desired.

No, you said that the Wisps don't count as platforming in general because they're exclusive gimmicks to one game.

I'd imagine gimmicks don't count much to the overall gameplay considering gimmicks tend to be around for only one game, and only exist to draw in a crowd.

And again, I posit my question: Can the modern gameplay not possibly accomodate "innovative" platforming, or is Sonic Team simply an inadequate developer? We should all really strive to answer this question before advocating a firestorm, because if the problem truly resides on Sonic Team's end in terms of their ability to develop engaging platforming, then you're not even close to solving the problem if you're just advocating changing the gameplay completely. Shit from a cow's not inherently better than shit from a horse.

You make it sound like I'm asking for them to change the gameplay, and not improve on anything; obviously I want them to improve on the gameplay if they changed it. But to answer the question, no they are not inadequate developers, they're more misguided than anything else and if this is the best they can pull out of their ass then the series isn't going to be remembered for anything special in it's last days.

[Tornado]

I was thinking more of this:

We still have the boost gauge, but it isn't filled up with anything you get from enemies, rings, etc. It's filled by breaking a set speed cap and holding over that speed for a period of time will fill it for that equal amount of time.

Let's say that Sonic's max speed without any help is a bit below the Speed Cap. The only way for it to fill is for Sonic to break the speed cap via using the environment around him and utilizing the physics of his rolling abilities.

It gives players incentive to learn how to adapt to the environment so they can get some leeway with the boost. (And as the stages get harder, the boost gauge gets harder to fill of course)

So when you don't have the boost you can still use the Spin-dash and roll.

You mean Advance 2 style? I quite like the idea of the boost reverting to that, and I've seen a few ideas for how it could work in 3D. I can dig it.

Edited August 6, 2012 by Gilda