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PerfectChaos

Would you miss the Boost?

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I never said that, you said Sonic Team need to make the platforming interesting, but they've already done that with the Classic Gameplay so logic would dictate they use that as a basis, I mean you're asking them to find an answer that's literally right in front of their faces. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

I'm asking them to find an answer in the context of the current gameplay they already have at their disposal, because I like what they currently have and thus would not want to see it abandoned.

I said BORING platforming, non-intuitive platforming, I never there's no platforming, but that the platforming that's there is incredibly simple and leaves much to be desired.

So improve the platforming sections then.

I'd imagine gimmicks don't count much to the overall gameplay considering gimmicks tend to be around for only one game, and only exist to draw in a crowd.

They count towards the discussion of how much adaptability the modern gameplay has. The fact that only Colors predominantly features the Wisps doesn't mean this kind of power-up based playstyle is a nonexistent quality. Rather, it conclusively proves your assertion that the modern games cannot have a slower pace false.

You make it sound like I'm asking for them to change the gameplay, and not improve on anything; obviously I want them to improve on the gameplay if they changed it. But to answer the question, no they are not inadequate developers, they're more misguided than anything else and if this is the best they can pull out of their ass then the series isn't going to be remembered for anything special in it's last days.

You and others have reiterated countless times that merely tossing major parts or all of the current gameplay out the window would automatically be an improvement because the modern gameplay's simply that terrible. My answer to that is that it's a non-solution if the developer- and not the parameters of the gameplay they're working with- is to blame, which opens up the very real possibility that if they tossed it out and did something completely different and more in line with what you wanted, you're not guaranteed a better game. And this isn't meaningless conjecture; we know this from years of experience. The 3D games are extremely inconsistent in gameplay styles but with most of them ranging from mediocre to terrible regardless. Thus, it would be a smarter and frugal bet to work with the foundation they already have and continue forward even if that continuation will eventually result in something different, the foundation I point out has actually been really popular outside of places where the bitter hardcore Sonic fans congregate.

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This thread is hilarious.

"It's more satisfying to earn your speed with strategic jumping and spin-dashing"

"Personally, I prefer having a boost button and maintaining top speed throughout the level via reaction-based challenges."

"No that's shallow. You're shallow."

Yeah, I think I'll just say that I enjoy both types of gameplay and find them just as fun as each other and leave it at that. I frankly don't care enough to try and explain my preference for a gameplay style I find legitimately fun, because I'd prefer to play it rather than try and waste my time explaining myself.

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I'm asking them to find an answer in the context of the current gameplay they already have at their disposal, because I like what they currently have and thus would not want to see it abandoned.

You honestly would not be losing much if the Modern gameplay was axed for the next game.

So improve the platforming sections then.

Three games, and they've barely scratched the surface of what they could do with the platforming, so what am I supposed to do? Wait three more games until they finally get it right, especially when they already made the platforming sections damn good years ago, but apparently that's not good enough.

They count towards the discussion of how much adaptability the modern gameplay has. The fact that only Colors predominantly features the Wisps doesn't mean this kind of power-up based playstyle is a nonexistent quality. Rather, it conclusively proves your assertion that the modern games cannot have a slower pace false.

If the Modern gameplay has to rely more on gimmicks for intuitive platforming, I think that speaks more about it than it does about my assertions.

You and others have reiterated countless times that merely tossing major parts or all of the current gameplay out the window would automatically be an improvement because the modern gameplay's simply that terrible. My answer to that is that it's a non-solution if the developer- and not the parameters of the gameplay they're working with- is to blame, which opens up the very real possibility that if they tossed it out and did something completely different and more in line with what you wanted, you're not guaranteed a better game.

And you're not guaranteed a better game with the current style either, so it goes both ways. So it really shouldn't matter which one they use, but I'm going to go with the style that the series built itself on, and the style that made Sonic who he is in the first place and the style that I ultimately feel is right for the series and not based simply on how fast I can go in a level.

And this isn't meaningless conjecture; we know this from years of experience. The 3D games are extremely inconsistent in gameplay styles but with most of them ranging from mediocre to terrible regardless. Thus, it would be a smarter and frugal bet to work with the foundation they already have and continue forward even if that continuation will eventually result in something different, the foundation I point out has actually been really popular outside of places where the bitter hardcore Sonic fans congregate.

I'd imagine the smarter move would be to take the style that defined what the series was in the first place, and improve on that. Especially since no prior game has even attempted to that aside from the Adventure games, which were bogged down by terrible design choices, but apparently it's ok to move on from that based on the inherent flaws of the games before, while ignoring the ones the current style has and trying to improve that. Why should I just sit down and accept the Modern gameplay, when I know this series can do better?

Edited by Ragna the Bloodedge

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You honestly would not be losing much if the Modern gameplay was axed for the next game.

I disagree, if for no other reason than because it would depend on what they replaced it with. We would also lose some sense of consistency and identity for the series that it has sorely needed since 2003.

Three games, and they've barely scratched the surface of what they could do with the platforming, so what am I supposed to do? Wait three more games until they finally get it right, especially when they already made the platforming sections damn good years ago, but apparently that's not good enough.

They made the platforming good all those years ago with different developers under different circumstances with different technology at their disposal. Current attempts to recreate that in both 2D and 3D have failed miserably for any number of reasons, so odds are you'll be waiting for several years more regardless of what Sonic Team does.

If the Modern gameplay has to rely more on gimmicks for intuitive platforming, I think that speaks more about it than it does about my assertions.

I didn't say it has to rely on them for intuitive platforming; I listed it as one possibility for the gameplay itself.

And yes, it does prove one of your assertions wrong.

And you're not guaranteed a better game with the current style either, so it goes both ways. So it really shouldn't matter which one they use, but I'm going to go with the style that the series built itself on, and the style that made Sonic who he is in the first place and the style that I ultimately feel is right for the series and not based simply on how fast I can go in a level.

On the contrary, considering the modern games are some of the most beloved and technically competent of the 3D games, I would say we are indeed guaranteed a better game out of Sonic Team if they're using that style than if we blindly bank on them being able to work some 90s magic in 3D from scratch.

I'd imagine the smarter move would be to take the style that defined what the series was in the first place, and improve on that. Especially since no prior game has even attempted to that aside from the Adventure games, which were bogged down by terrible design choices, but apparently it's ok to move on from that based on the inherent flaws of the games before, while ignoring the ones the current style has and trying to improve that. Why should I just sit down and accept the Modern gameplay, when I know this series can do better?

I've not ignored the flaws of the modern games; a quick browse through my posting history will tell that tale. However, I will blatantly ignore suggestions to improve the modern style that amount to getting rid of it because they're not solutions anymore than taking public transportation somehow magically fixes your car's flat tire.

And almost everyone thinks the series can be better, even people who like the current games, so you're not in a particularly unique position about wanting better. The only issue here is that everyone has different opinions on what constitutes "better" in terms of proper continuation from this point forward. But frankly, so long as the games continue being critically and publicly successful, you'll have no choice but to accept the current gameplay (beyond complaining about it, of course), same as I have to accept the lack of involving plots now or Kirk Thornton doing that annoying drawl for Shadow.

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I personally like what Xenos is suggesting.

But in general, I find the Modern gameplay to be, yes, very much shallow. 3D platforming with the 'modern' gameplay is hilariously basic, and whenever you're going faster than jogging speed the gameplay turns into little more than a bunch of QTEs. 2D 'modern' gameplay is also pretty shallow for the most part, it's vastly inferior to the 'classic' gameplay, which itself isn't perfect in Generations. Colours suffered from over-utilizing gimmicks in place of interesting level design, which would be bad enough if it weren't for the terrible jumping physics that made actually trying to do any kind of precision platforming a nightmare. That can be fixed, but the same can't be said for the 3D side of things.

And, in both Colours and Generations, literally more than half of the game was composed of '2D' gameplay. That's some serious writing on the wall. Remove all that, and the 3D gameplay simply wouldn't be able to stand on its own merits. 'Modern' gameplay uses 2D as a crutch, without that, it's just too shallow and can only provide very little actual variety in level design.

The 'modern' gameplay style in 3D is inherently flawed. There is only so much you can do with it until you either hit a brick wall or you're forced to change it until it simply isn't the 'modern' gameplay style anymore.

Edited by Masaru Daimon

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Having a locked speed does not eliminate the possibility of slopes having reactions on the character. Rayman can run up a 90-degree cliff face forever with no adverse effects on his speed or momentum, but jumping from or falling on a slope still has an effect on his positioning and subsequently how the player has to respond to it in order to progress.

Within the context of the current games I don't know if that's terribly relevant, you never run on walls unless the game says so, and typically leaving the wall before it's supposed to end kills you. Under the context of a more open level design, this goes back to it seeming strange that going downhill doesn't result in going faster. Does gravity take a break?

It also seems like if a level has the player to climb up a steep slope with nothing to help them the level might need some rethinking. Being able to to just have speed would also kind of spoil the "building up speed in a trough" thing you can do just by holding down and letting it build up.

It's those four textbook examples that make the level fast in a layman's sense, but what other ways specifically are you referring to?

That's where it gets tricky, the breadth of the situations I'm referring it is so great because just bouncing off a spring in the classics could feel fast under the right circumstances, thanks in no small part to them being able to function as tools rather then merely gameways. There are some clearer examples, though: Flying Battery Zone makes much better use of the rotating mesh cylinders than Metropolis Zone ever did, every time they show up it's in some different configuration that isn't seen anywhere else, then there's the propeller section you mentioned, those require tight timing to use to reach secrets (Unless you go super and just shimmy the whole way up, and they fling you off pretty fast. Man, this level had so much going on in it.

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Flying Battery Zone makes much better use of the rotating mesh cylinders than Metropolis Zone ever did, every time they show up it's in some different configuration that isn't seen anywhere else,

This reminds me of the rotating cylinders in SA1's Final Egg. You actually had more control in keeping Sonic on the sides and even the ceiling if you build up your speed and without automation (not counting the boost pads), and should you stop you fall right back down below.

Interesting how a more buggy game could perfect something that is done away with in current games.

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Finally got off of work, ok then.

I disagree, if for no other reason than because it would depend on what they replaced it with. We would also lose some sense of consistency and identity for the series that it has sorely needed since 2003.

I see it as the series regaining an identity it lost after Sonic Adventure.

They made the platforming good all those years ago with different developers under different circumstances with different technology at their disposal. Current attempts to recreate that in both 2D and 3D have failed miserably for any number of reasons, so odds are you'll be waiting for several years more regardless of what Sonic Team does.

I'd rather they at least try and fail doing that, than not even try at all.

I didn't say it has to rely on them for intuitive platforming; I listed it as one possibility for the gameplay itself.

Once again, if the gameplay has to rely more on gimmicks as a gameplay option than the gameplay itself, it's probably not that good.

On the contrary, considering the modern games are some of the most beloved and technically competent of the 3D games, I would say we are indeed guaranteed a better game out of Sonic Team if they're using that style than if we blindly bank on them being able to work some 90s magic in 3D from scratch.

yeah, and the Classic Games are still hailed as the best Sonic games that have survived the testament of time, and if the developers actually gave a fuck about actually improving it, than I'm pretty sure it'd be better than anything we have at the moment.

I've not ignored the flaws of the modern games; a quick browse through my posting history will tell that tale. However, I will blatantly ignore suggestions to improve the modern style that amount to getting rid of it because they're not solutions anymore than taking public transportation somehow magically fixes your car's flat tire.

Like I said, I don't think there's much in keeping from the Modern formula, especially since it hasn't exactly revolutionized the way Sonic plays other than making him faster, something which is easily accomplished with today's technology.

And almost everyone thinks the series can be better, even people who like the current games, so you're not in a particularly unique position about wanting better. The only issue here is that everyone has different opinions on what constitutes "better" in terms of proper continuation from this point forward. But frankly, so long as the games continue being critically and publicly successful, you'll have no choice but to accept the current gameplay (beyond complaining about it, of course), same as I have to accept the lack of involving plots now or Kirk Thornton doing that annoying drawl for Shadow.

I'm pretty sure the only reason these games as acclaimed as they are is mostly because they're not as bad as the games before it, but at the same time you don't exactly see raving reviews. The games barely break 80 on average scores. Unleashed had mixed reactions mostly due to the Werehog, and even then most people have called the game out on it's questionable design choices, After the initial hype died down, Colors is mostly forgotten by the public and most Sonic fans alike, and Generations relies mostly on nostalgia to sell. In any case, I'm not going to stop complaining nor am I going to sit down and accept this playstyle when I know the series can(and has) do far better than it is at the moment, but only if Sonic Team stop trying to shill speed as it's only selling point and actually grow a pair and take some risks.

Edited by Ragna the Bloodedge

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I think the boost could work in cooperation with momentum physics. Maybe it could be made so it just increases your acceleration both on flat ground AND on slopes (more so then rolling) and dramatically raises your speed cap?

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Maybe not ditch Boost, but rethink it. It's only usable if you fully charge a spin dash and release, like the SA series Light Speed Dash, boosting a certain distance for a limited amount of time? How about even bring back the "Peel-Out" from Sonic CD? Ripping at Max Speed once released? Sounds like a pretty damn good idea to me.

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The Speed Light was ok, but you needed close rings to pull that trick off. They could make a dash that auto puts rings ahead of you to light and dash at the same time.

No, no. I'm speaking of an entirely new mechanic. I was only using Light Speed Dash as a reference.

Boost needs a makeover. Although, I wouldn't miss it if it was ditched entirely.

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I liked it but after playing Adventure, I kinda miss being able to move around alot. The boost and the stiffness of Generations modern controls makes it hard to explore.

Try moving the stick around, it doesn't feel right.
It was alright in Unleashed and done well in colors


 

Edited by Alice T

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Got permission to bump this thread from Tornado.

 

desert-ruins-zone-2-e3-3.jpg

 

Now we all know that when Lost World reared it's head as the next Sonic game, along with it was a new gameplay style that in a way considerably strips down the boost mechanic if not takes it out entirely. Arguably the replacement for the boost is the "run" button, which like the boost allows you to let Sonic move at his highest speed. However, the run button is a natural gameplay action that doesn't require replenishing with a gauge like the boost does, and in "run" mode Sonic is not as fast as he previously was with the boost, nor does it make him invulnerable to most enemies. In addition to this, levels in Lost World have levels that replicate the constant-high-speed on-rails gameplay of the Unleashed gameplay and the "Mach Speed" run section of Sonic 2006 that the boost mechanic was arguably built upon, presumably packaged along with the run button as compensation to fans of the previous/former gameplay style (the above image of Desert Ruin Zone 3 displays such a level in action). On a lesser note, the long-absent spin dash mechanic, previously advocated in this thread as a replacement to the boost, has also been re-instated to the current gameplay style.

 

apotos10.jpg

 

Do you find the new "run" gameplay mechanic and Lost World's mach speed levels as acceptable replacements or successors to the boost? Or do you think the boost mechanic from the former "Unleashed trilogy" was fine as it was or needed only minor alterations, and are thus dissatisfied with the changes to it/it's removal, depending on how you look at it? Your thoughts?

 

I for one welcome the removal/dumbing down of the boost, and I think the run button/mach speed levels are acceptable replacements. I'm also happy to get my spindash back as well. I do hope to see more creative/interactive level design in the future as Lost World's "parkour" gameplay (in which I also hope) is improved/expanded upon.

Edited by Gabe the Grouch

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I still enjoyed the Daytime gameplay for all it was worth (specifically that iteration of it) due to the design facilitating a pleasing flow that could be achievable with enough practice, which in theory is no different from the high I get from playing something like Rayman. I wished we could've gotten that iteration back a few more times, but I'm not indifferent to the Parkour gameplay. That looks really fun too, and I figured they're throwing people like me a bone in the form of the speed levels in Lost Worlds any way so I'm fine.

I just wish...yanno... Parkour was the only thing to deal with in the Parkour levels. For one thing, the "anything goes" design mantra of the game is giving me mixed feelings about how the gameplay will be served by the level design. I'm not sure if we're going to get stages that test a building skill level with the controls as well as the ability of the player to link maneuvers together or use them in different ways, so much as we're gonna get a potpourri of levels that only serve a middling difficulty level at the end of the day. Also, I'm not big on Wisps being back. In light of these things, pure, unbridled Daytime Gameplay still seems tons of fun.

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I don't understand why it's as controversial as it is. I personally think it's great.

Agreed with this :)

 

But as for the new gameplay, I like it, I don't really mind if there getting rid of the boost (as much as I like it, I also want this series to be constantly changing) though I will say that the mach speed sections aren't a good substitute (its not even like the boost gameplay) but I will admit they do look pretty fun and definitely way better than the ones from sonic 06 but the thing that kind of irks me a bit on them is if there going to be fun enough to come back to, cause looking at the stage a bit more shows that it really isn't all that fast and seems a bit too slow to be honest especially considering the fact that it suppose to be mach speed.

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The run button and its parkour moves are a fan-tastiiiicccc replacement for the boost, but I'm getting a feeling that Lost World isn't taking advantage of it as much as they should be, because the game seems to want to be focusing on so many new things at one time..

 

I'm sure that if the controls in Lost World had more weight to them (like in its accel/decel and turning) and be put in a more traditional stage design, it'd be 3D Sonic in its prime.

Edited by Azookara

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The run button and its parkour moves are a fan-tastiiiicccc replacement for the boost, but I'm getting a feeling that Lost World isn't taking advantage of it as much as they should be, because the game seems to want to be focusing on so many new things at one time..

 

I'm sure that if the controls in Lost World had more weight to them (like in its accel/decel and turning) and be put in a more traditional stage design, it'd be 3D Sonic in its prime.

This, basically. I'm very glad to see the boost gone, and SLoW's parkour mechanics are a lot like things I've been suggesting for the series for a while...but it doesn't seem like it's coming together in the best way. Sonic's too twitchy, there's no sense of weight or momentum, and the game's juggling so many different things at once (2D, 3D, gravity, autorunning, wisp powers) that it seems like the parkour isn't being used or refined to its full extent.

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I guess I wouldn't miss the boost too much if were to be removed from future gameplay entirely.  As satisfying as it was zooming through long levels and destroying enemies upon impact (especially in the Rush titles), I don't really want it in the games unless it can utilized efficiently(which it has been for the most part and a lot of critics not seeing the damn irony there) or I have an available spin dash (In the Rush games, the spin dash was an option but it wasn't as useful as the boost).

 

Sonic Lost World seems to have done away with the maneuver in favor of the "run" button and spin dash, which I'm fine with as long as the control is good and the levels accommodate Sonic's abilities.   

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