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PerfectChaos

Would you miss the Boost?

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No you couldn't. Mario games are not momentum based. They never have been. What on earth are you talking about?

Sonic games used to be all about using momentum to get to a high speed, then using that against the physics to reach new places. The boost destroys that. If you've played any of the classic/adventure games, you'll know what I'm talking about. (Specifically the classics)

The Adventure games /barley/ scrapped the surface when it came to momentum physics, Sa2 especially, where you were to busy being automated by dash pads down linear paths.

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The boost is not broken nor have most of the levels in any modern game been designed entirely around the boost. You literally cannot continually use it and expect to survive most levels. Besides, considering the classics' curvy level design, they themselves are designed around rolling and by extension the Spin Dash as well, which is actually perfectly fine; There's really nothing wrong with designing a game around a maneuver.

The entire point of boosting is to go forward, the additional moves there are just there to support it and nothing more. The levels are designed with a "Go forward and fast" mentality; obviously you can't just boost and expect to win, but other than boosting, there isn't much else in terms of variety.

Anyway, the Spin Dash lets you go fast on the same terrain that allows you to boost on it at high speeds; otherwise it's inherently limited anywhere else and you might as well either run or jump your way past the obstacles. However, there are still differences: momentum-based limitations and the common quirk that you have to be completely still to use the Spin Dash, and it is these differences that will make a person favor one move over the other. I happen to like the idea that Sonic does not need rolling hills to make use of an ability that should be innate to him, much like I prefer Mario being an acrobatic prodigy on his own without outside influence, hence why I advocate for future game designs that would allow Sonic to continue to be fast whilst currently throwing in my chips with the boost.

I don't understand how taking away the boost is somehow robbing Sonic of any speed, he's always been fast long before the boost was even a concept, so why is it such a problem if it's taken out? Will Sonic slow down? Will the games become Mario levels of slow? No, they won't so I don't understand this dictation that the boost is needed for Sonic to go fast, when speed has always been a core concept. I don't get how the spin dash is somehow "worse" than boost, simply because it doesn't take you from 0-60 in 10 seconds, I mean has Sonic really become only known for "Fast Fast Fast Fast". The boost kills any need to attain speed simply because all you need are about 10 rings and you're off, and as long as you keep rings there's really not much there in terms of challenge; Enemies pose no threats, you never have to think outside of the box with the boost, and once you figure out the level design all you do is go forward and not slow down, it's gets boring after a while simply because the game gives you no incentive to slow down for a sec. The game basically amounts to a glorified Time Attack.

I don't think Sonic needs to be "Linearity: The Video game" to get the point across that he's fast; we had a fast move before with the spin dash, so I don't understand how the boost's absence will change that.

Edited by The Batman

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The Adventure games /barley/ scrapped the surface when it came to momentum physics, Sa2 especially, where you were to busy being automated by dash pads down linear paths.

Hence why I said specifically the classics. Sonic Adventure did it decently (Excluding the broken spamdash), whereas Sonic Adventure 2 did it, but the levels were too linear to the point where you could only do it in a few places.

Edited by -L-

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And really, how long until we get another stupid Kart or Party game?

Mario Kart games come out one a console/ handheld cycle so I don't see the point in complaining in that front.

Back on topic, there are time when I use the boost that it really don't make too much of a difference other than making the background blurry and the music go at a faster tempo.

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Personally I would not mind seeing the boost go away. As once you know level layouts it becomes quite easy to just boost through making enemies a non threat.

I was thinking of putting the speed gem from 06 in there in the sense of it is enough to get you going but it would require you to do other stuff like going down hills to reach Sonic's true top speed. It would also eliminate the problem of boost making enemies a non issue as you will either have to avoid them or actually try and kill them.

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If they could make a better gameplay that isn't dominated by one mechanic, I'll pop the champagne at Diogenes' party.

Really tho, I wish they could give us the kind of boost that we have to reach through work instead of with the press of a button akin to Sonic Advance 2's boost.

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I happen to like the idea that Sonic does not need rolling hills to make use of an ability that should be innate to him, much like I prefer Mario being an acrobatic prodigy on his own without outside influence, hence why I advocate for future game designs that would allow Sonic to continue to be fast whilst currently throwing in my chips with the boost.
Mario isn't much of an acrobatic prodigy without an appropriate level to apply his abilities. Sure, he's still got (most of) his various jumps even in an infinite white void, but it's not any one jump on its own that makes Jumpman Jumpman; it's the application of those jumps to an environment, it's having the right jump for the right obstacle, it's chaining jumps into other jumps to reach higher and farther.

I think a similar kind of thing can and should apply to Sonic. Take something along the lines of SA/SA2 Sonic. He's got a few different abilities for "going fast"; a moderately quick running speed, the spindash, the air dash, the homing attack, the light dash, etc. But it's not any one ability in itself that defines how Sonic "goes fast", but how he applies them.

The boost short-circuits this, though. The boost is the end-all be-all of "going fast", and everything else is how not to crash/die while boosting, or what you do in the filler between boosting.

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Major apologies for the late response. Mom came home with a nasty medical issue and required some assistance. Also storms; yae summer.

No you couldn't. Mario games are not momentum based. They never have been. What on earth are you talking about?

Have you ever had to get or merely made a running start in a Mario game to be able to make a longer jump? If so, you have effectively used momentum. Momentum is a natural factor for most platformers; Sonic is not special for merely having it.

The entire point of boosting is to go forward, the additional moves there are just there to support it and nothing more. The levels are designed with a "Go forward and fast" mentality; obviously you can't just boost and expect to win, but other than boosting, there isn't much else in terms of variety.

And the entire point of Spin Dashing is to also shoot yourself forward and to gain a defensive advantage, which is the same function as the boost. I recognize the differences between the two moves and their respective level design, but I really don't understand why this portion right here is in contention.

I don't understand how taking away the boost is somehow robbing Sonic of any speed, he's always been fast long before the boost was even a concept, so why is it such a problem if it's taken out? Will Sonic slow down? Will the games become Mario levels of slow? No, they won't so I don't understand this dictation that the boost is needed for Sonic to go fast, when speed has always been a core concept. I don't get how the spin dash is somehow "worse" than boost, simply because it doesn't take you from 0-60 in 10 seconds,

I'm going to clarify this as best I can: know that I have not said in this topic or any other that:

Sonic is slow without the boost.

A lack of boost will lead to level design that advocates slowly maneuvering.

The Spin Dash is worse than the Boost.

None of these statements bear any relevance to my argument so do not assume they apply. Instead, my argument is idealistic: I would rather a Sonic who is both very fast and capable of hitting his speed cap by mere ability rather than the oft-toted alternative of environment and gravitational forces doing the work for me. Why? Because he is inherently a supersonic character, having been toted not only through marketing but within the games' various mechanics, balancing measures, and cutscenes, and as such I don't believe I should be expected to "earn" what is logically his basest ability anymore. I even said I would happily give up the boost if Sega proposed better game designs that achieved this specification. But until then, popular argument dictates that I really only have two choices: classic style of relying on slopes and hills to achieve the highest speeds or modern style of just simply pressing a button to achieve the highest speeds. Modern style fits my ideals better so I choose that one.

I mean has Sonic really become only known for "Fast Fast Fast Fast".

Sonic has always been primarily known for this; look past the hardcore gaming elective on the Internet and ask the general populous what they think of when they think of Sonic. I'd put money down on "speed" being much higher on the list than "deep rolling mechanics."

The boost kills any need to attain speed simply because all you need are about 10 rings and you're off, and as long as you keep rings there's really not much there in terms of challenge; Enemies pose no threats, you never have to think outside of the box with the boost, and once you figure out the level design all you do is go forward and not slow down, it's gets boring after a while simply because the game gives you no incentive to slow down for a sec. The game basically amounts to a glorified Time Attack.

I feel opponents keep painting this extreme image that every level is just a perfectly straight line from beginning to end with nothing to slow or stop you in between, and the only enemies in the games are the blue Egg Fighters that you can boost through.

Aero Chasers, Aero Cannons, Interceptors, Electric Spinners, Egg Blizzards and Egg Flames, Egg Fighter Knights, and Egg Fighter Shooters from Unleashed alone can actually harm Sonic while he is mid-boost. If there is a player here that has not taken damage from an enemy in any modern game ever, I'd call them either a liar or someone who has not played the games. And while I just disparaged the blue Egg Fighters, I remembered even they drop electric wires that can damage you as well. But in general, I find the enemies of most Sonic games to not actually be significant threats anyway. They're either too slow, too open, telegraph their attacks too well, or some combination of.

I don't find time attacking boring either; I flock to it in games where the level design and my characters' abilities are specifically laid out for me in order to do a time attack and go forward with little inhibition or reason to stop. There is inherent satisfaction in not only attaining top speed, but in keeping it and destroying every obstacle laid out for you.

I don't think Sonic needs to be "Linearity: The Video game" to get the point across that he's fast; we had a fast move before with the spin dash, so I don't understand how the boost's absence will change that.

Again, if you can propose a game design that will allow Sonic to attain high speeds of his own ability, I frankly don't care whether or not the level design is linear or open-world. However, if I have the black and white choice usually presented in these arguments, I'm perfectly fine playing more modern games.

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I think the problem is that not that he can just attain the speed on his own, it's that it's there at the push of a button. If the boost was changed to something that had the potential to take you to max speed, but doesn't do it with a single button press, then maybe everyone could win? If that makes any sense.

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Have you ever had to get or merely made a running start in a Mario game to be able to make a longer jump? If so, you have effectively used momentum. Momentum is a natural factor for most platformers; Sonic is not special for merely having it.

Mario takes 3 seconds to reach top speed. Having to run to jump further to something, a total of three times in the entire game does not make it a momentum based game. Having the ability to run doesn't make it a momentum based game either. Mario is a platformer, and a rather simple one. Which has barely-no momentum.

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I like the boost in some of the games I played that used it, but I wouldn't miss it if they decided to stop using it.

A little, to be 100% honest. But I'm up 2 the return of the peel-out. If the spindash can be made in 3D, why the peel-out couldn't?

Because there's no point having it in a game that also has the spindash because it's exactly the same apart from still letting you take damage.

Edited by Ekaje

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Mario takes 3 seconds to reach top speed. Having to run to jump further to something, a total of three times in the entire game does not make it a momentum based game. Having the ability to run doesn't make it a momentum based game either. Mario is a platformer, and a rather simple one. Which has barely-no momentum.

Which of the Mario games require long jumps a total of three times in the entire game? Even if that were true, how does this contradict the fact that this effectively means Mario games utilize momentum which is effectively the opposite of what you said?

Mario isn't much of an acrobatic prodigy without an appropriate level to apply his abilities. Sure, he's still got (most of) his various jumps even in an infinite white void, but it's not any one jump on its own that makes Jumpman Jumpman; it's the application of those jumps to an environment, it's having the right jump for the right obstacle, it's chaining jumps into other jumps to reach higher and farther.

I think a similar kind of thing can and should apply to Sonic. Take something along the lines of SA/SA2 Sonic. He's got a few different abilities for "going fast"; a moderately quick running speed, the spindash, the air dash, the homing attack, the light dash, etc. But it's not any one ability in itself that defines how Sonic "goes fast", but how he applies them.

The boost short-circuits this, though. The boost is the end-all be-all of "going fast", and everything else is how not to crash/die while boosting, or what you do in the filler between boosting.

I don't disagree with this much really in the way you describe it, but you make an aside that notes the idea I was arguing against: Mario has all of basic jumps in a plain white void. The environment doesn't aid his ability to use his most basic jumps, and this really isn't true of classic/classically-done Sonic if I personally wish to get up to the highest speeds attainable. Not to say that this isn't valid design, I just don't find it preferrable to the other alternative.

Edited by Nepenthe

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In reply to Nepenthe, I disagree with the notion that Sonic should just be able to go fast without interaction with the level. Sonic is supposed to be fast but he was also chosen very specifically to be a hedgehog because hedgehog's can turn into balls. So his speed is supposed to be gained by sucsessfully using his ability to roll and bounce in that form. I think this is the essense of the often touted 'momentum-based' gameplay.

That would be the advantage the spindash has over boost for me, it gives you the extra straight-line speed but also gets you in ball form. You're right that the classics were designed around this ability just like the modern games are based around the boost, so there is an element of personal preference for sure. For me though changing too much of Sonic's original designs is problematic.

PS. Not trying to start an argument, just wanting to discuss.

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Which of the Mario games require long jumps a total of three times in the entire game? Even if that were true, how does this contradict the fact that this effectively means Mario games utilize momentum which is effectively the opposite of what you said?

All of them. Mario games are not momentum based. They never have been. Having three areas that you need to run-jump to in the entire games does not make it momentum based. This is what I've been saying all along. No contradiction. You just misread it.

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In reply to Nepenthe, I disagree with the notion that Sonic should just be able to go fast without interaction with the level. Sonic is supposed to be fast but he was also chosen very specifically to be a hedgehog because hedgehog's can turn into balls. So his speed is supposed to be gained by sucsessfully using his ability to roll and bounce in that form. I think this is the essense of the often touted 'momentum-based' gameplay.

That would be the advantage the spindash has over boost for me, it gives you the extra straight-line speed but also gets you in ball form. You're right that the classics were designed around this ability just like the modern games are based around the boost, so there is an element of personal preference for sure. For me though changing too much of Sonic's original designs is problematic.

PS. Not trying to start an argument, just wanting to discuss.

If his speed is only supposed to gained by using his ability to roll, does that not also in turn render any decent speed he's able to gain on foot relatively meaningless? Why make him even remotely swift on foot if his rolling abilities are not harmed? These questions are barring even Sega's insistence and reiteration through bios, game mechanics, and cutscenes, well before the boost came into existence, that Sonic's speed naturally comes as a result of his running prowess instead of his rolling ability.

True, you can call it a disconnect between canon and gameplay, and really I don't mean to insist that classics are badly designed; I just insist that rolling to gain the highest speeds isn't ideal, not only for this disconnect existing, but because I also believe initiating rolling and allowing it to carry out naturally- to act like a ball- actually does sacrifice some element of control from the player than having a character with more conventional jumping and running moves like Mario. After all, it does strike me as weird that as influential as Sonic used to be on the platforming genre, absolutely none of the knock-offs even tried to do anything with the rolling mechanic. It's easy to imagine that's not simple incompetence at design. I think it's also because you can naturally do far more when you're standing up than when you're curled in on yourself.

PS: I thank you for wanting to discuss instead of argue. x3

All of them. Mario games are not momentum based. They never have been. Having three areas that you need to run-jump to in the entire games does not make it momentum based. This is what I've been saying all along. No contradiction. You just misread it.

Can you literally list examples of the only three jumps that occur in just the main Mario platformers, because I'm just inclined to believe you're just exaggerating for the sake of exaggerating.

And I understand what you're saying. I just believe you to be wrong. Most platforming motions require some kind of momentum. Momentum is an inherent physical property of moving, thus it is unavoidable. This is why I insisted Sonic is not special for merely having it. Instead, he is special for how momentum is applied to his own level design.

How did we end up back on Mario again ;/

He mentioned Mario and I picked up on it.

Edited by Nepenthe

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I think what -L- is trying to say is that Momentum isn't as big of a part of the Mario games like it is in the Sonic games.

Well, if that's what he's trying to say, I agree in some respects. But that isn't really what I'm reading from his posts, and on top of that I still feel like he's being silly by saying there's only three jumps in every single Mario game that demand you get a running start first.

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Mario takes 3 seconds to reach top speed. Having to run to jump further to something, a total of three times in the entire game does not make it a momentum based game. Having the ability to run doesn't make it a momentum based game either. Mario is a platformer, and a rather simple one. Which has barely-no momentum.

Momentum = Mass x Velocity

Mario has a smaller magnitude of momentum, because he's slower. Sonic has a higher magnitude of momentum because he's faster.

Momentum is equally important to both Mario AND Sonic. And pretty much any other platfomer worth talking about.

I think what -L- is trying to say is that Momentum isn't as big of a part of the Mario games like it is in the Sonic games.

Momentum doesn't work like that. Like I said, its important to all platformers The difference between Sonic and other platformers, is that he can achieve greater speeds. This is because Sonic is naturally faster and is affected by topography moreso than most other platformers. Its the pinball physics really.

EDIT:

I should reiterate.

Sonic is not special because he has momentum, he's special because he can run fast and behaves like a pinball.

Edited by Scar

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Have you ever had to get or merely made a running start in a Mario game to be able to make a longer jump? If so, you have effectively used momentum. Momentum is a natural factor for most platformers; Sonic is not special for merely having it.
Having momentum is not the same as being momentum based. Mario is "momentum based" to about the same extent that he's "combat based", given that there are enemies and you can and sometimes must fight them. On the other hand momentum plays a much larger part in the classic Sonic games, given the rolling/physics mechanics.

Because he is inherently a supersonic character, having been toted not only through marketing but within the games' various mechanics, balancing measures, and cutscenes, and as such I don't believe I should be expected to "earn" what is logically his basest ability anymore.
To me, this is like saying, since Mario is such a great jumper, you should be able to make super high jumps all the time. Or, if I play as the Sniper in TF2, I shouldn't need to worry about aiming myself, since I'm the Sniper, obviously I'm a pro. The game gives you the character's tools, but it's up to you to actually use them.

Sonic has always been primarily known for this; look past the hardcore gaming elective on the Internet and ask the general populous what they think of when they think of Sonic. I'd put money down on "speed" being much higher on the list than "deep rolling mechanics."
Well, yeah. But pretty much any concept gets simplified down like this. You look at a character like, say, Kratos from GoW or Dante from DMC, most people are going to talk about how much ass they kick, not the specific mechanics of how the player goes about it.

Aero Chasers, Aero Cannons, Interceptors, Electric Spinners, Egg Blizzards and Egg Flames, Egg Fighter Knights, and Egg Fighter Shooters from Unleashed alone can actually harm Sonic while he is mid-boost. If there is a player here that has not taken damage from an enemy in any modern game ever, I'd call them either a liar or someone who has not played the games.
Boosting does not make you literally invincible, but it does still trivialize most enemies. When you're actually boosting, you're moving so fast that most enemies don't even get a chance to attack; either you blow past them or you blow through them before they can even try. Chasers and Interceptors are about the only things that can actually keep up, but they're such heavily scripted events...

I don't disagree with this much really in the way you describe it, but you make an aside that notes the idea I was arguing against: Mario has all of basic jumps in a plain white void. The environment doesn't aid his ability to use his most basic jumps, and this really isn't true of classic/classically-done Sonic if I personally wish to get up to the highest speeds attainable. Not to say that this isn't valid design, I just don't find it preferrable to the other alternative.
If nothing else, Mario needs a wall to walljump. If you want to jump higher, Mario can do more with walls than without. And ignoring the infinite white void example, he needs room to run to set up a triple jump, and a bit of room to build up speed for a long jump.

And as Mario has his "most basic jumps", Sonic has his most basic speeds. He can run, he can spindash, he can jump dash spam. Sonic can't reach his highest speeds in the infinite white void, but neither can Mario pull off his greatest jumping stunts.

Might also be worth considering powerups, many of which exist specifically to allow Mario to go higher than his jumps let him...

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Yes there is some momentum in Mario games, but not that much. It's not crucial, and probably just a fraction of the gameplay. Mario games are not momentum based. Momentum may be a fraction of the gameplay, but that doesn't make Mario games momentum based, whereas Sonic games used to be completely momentum based.

How you can even compare momentum in Sonic games to Mario games, I'll never understand.

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