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PerfectChaos

Would you miss the Boost?

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That seems like mere semantics considering the end result is still the same, don't you think? Either way if I want Sonic to go to the particularly highest speed capable in the game, I'd have to find a place to do it at.

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Because I feel like earning the top speed of a naturally fast character is conceptually flawed, and on top of that I get immense satisfaction from carrying my speed and momentum through the levels of my own accord. This is simple difference of opinion.

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Because I feel like earning the top speed of a naturally fast character is conceptually flawed,
I don't care how fast you are, you're going to go faster downhill than uphill. The idea that this is somehow an insult, or goes against the idea of a fast character being fast, is baffling. I think you're getting stuck on this idea of "top speed".

and on top of that I get immense satisfaction from carrying my speed and momentum through the levels of my own accord.
And that doesn't happen with the classic gameplay?

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Because I feel like earning the top speed of a naturally fast character is conceptually flawed, and on top of that I get immense satisfaction from carrying my speed and momentum through the levels of my own accord. This is simple difference of opinion.

Well at least earning your speed is a lot better than receiving it through speed boosters or scripted events. Heck, you have to earn your boost too by collecting rings/wisps or destroying enemies. A naturally fast character still needs to collect things in order to reach his max speed. And as Diogenes said, running downhill is a lot easier which is why it makes perfect sense for Sonic to run faster when going down than when going up. If he didn't, he would be deliberately fighting against the gravity and slowing himself down.

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I don't care how fast you are, you're going to go faster downhill than uphill. The idea that this is somehow an insult, or goes against the idea of a fast character being fast, is baffling. I think you're getting stuck on this idea of "top speed".

The more realistic physics themselves are a strawman, nor are they even necessary for a good game to function; most platformers survive with fixed speeds irrelevant of the slope angle. Regardless, I'm talking about the fundamental differences in gameplay philosophy between the classics and modern games where speed is either a reward or a natural part of the repertoire's character from the outset. Regardless of how fast Sonic ultimately was, I would still prefer that speed being largely irrelevant of how gravity works and more so tied to when I choose to use it, not when I'm given an opportunity with a hill.

And that doesn't happen with the classic gameplay?

Sure, if you want to be technical, pressing down before an incline does actually involve some input from me. But the gravity and slope angle's still doing the majority of the work there. Heck, you don't even have to press forward like I thought.

Well at least earning your speed is a lot better than receiving it through speed boosters or scripted events. Heck, you have to earn your boost too by collecting rings/wisps or destroying enemies. A naturally fast character still needs to collect things in order to reach his max speed. And as Diogenes said, running downhill is a lot easier which is why it makes perfect sense for Sonic to run faster when going down than when going up. If he didn't, he would be deliberately fighting against the gravity and slowing himself down.

The minimization of speed itself being a reward for "playing properly"- which in most cases is either using the Spin Dash or pressing down on an incline- is subsequently replaced with the inherent reward of powering through a succession of obstacles with quick reflexes to maintain a smooth and pleasing flow throughout the level. This is the exact same reward system inherent in other linear obstacle-based platformers such as the highly-praised Donkey Kong Country Returns and Rayman Origins. Why this concept doesn't seem to be applicable to the Sonic series, I haven't the foggiest idea.

Edited by Nepenthe

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The more realistic physics themselves are a strawman,
What?

nor are they even necessary for a good game to function; most platformers survive with fixed speeds irrelevant of the slope angle.
And there was a time when Sonic aspired to be more than most platformers. And I kind of wish we could go back to that.

Regardless, I'm talking about the fundamental differences in gameplay philosophy between the classics and modern games where speed is either a reward or a natural part of the repertoire's character from the outset.
I'm suggesting a situation where we have both.

Sure, if you want to be technical, pressing down before an incline does actually involve some input from me. But the gravity and slope angle's still doing the majority of the work there. Heck, you don't even have to press forward like I thought.
Okay, then what exactly is the alternative?

The minimization of speed itself being a reward for "playing properly"- which in most cases is either using the Spin Dash or pressing down on an incline- is subsequently replaced with the inherent reward of powering through a succession of obstacles with quick reflexes to maintain a smooth and pleasing flow throughout the level. This is the exact same reward system inherent in other linear obstacle-based platformers such as the highly-praised Donkey Kong Country Returns and Rayman Origins. Why this concept doesn't seem to be applicable to the Sonic series, I haven't the foggiest idea.
You say that like it doesn't already exist in, or is incompatible with, the Genesis gameplay.

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What?

You mentioned the effects of realistic physics on a person's speed going downhill which I didn't find relevant to my point.

And there was a time when Sonic aspired to be more than most platformers. And I kind of wish we could go back to that.

Are you suggesting that the absolute only way we can is through classic gameplay and nothing else?

I'm suggesting a situation where we have both.

Elaborate.

Okay, then what exactly is the alternative?

The alternative is that when I have a hill to climb instead of descend, or when I'm faced with relatively even terrain, I myself can still choose to hit the highest speeds if I want to without having to look for or happen upon an impetus to be rewarded with the ability to do so.

You say that like it doesn't already exist in, or is incompatible with, the Genesis gameplay.

Classic gameplay, due to the kind of level design involved, doesn't actually lend itself to the lengths of sustained and consistent momentum that the games I named do, so yes I do believe it's fairly incompatible in some ways, and certainly far lesser than the modern games.

Edited by Nepenthe

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If they were to take out the boost entirely, I would most definitely miss it. I think it's the best move ever added to Sonic's arsenal in the entire series (except maybe the spindash in Sonic 2). It's hard to explain exactly why I like it so much so I'll just sum it up like this: I love the feeling of pressing X and instantly reaching top speed, it's very thrilling for me to be able to do that.

And yes, I prefer the Modern playstyle over the Classic one. It's more exciting and fun (although I really, really love the Classic style too).

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You mentioned the effects of realistic physics on a person's speed going downhill which I didn't find relevant to my point.
My point is that it's no slight against a fast character to have ways for him to go even faster. No more than Galaxy's Spring Mushroom invalidate Mario's status as Jumpman, nor that he can walljump to go higher than any always-available jump can take him.

Are you suggesting that the absolute only way we can is through classic gameplay and nothing else?
No, but that's the way Sonic does it. Or did it, when he was great.

Elaborate.
Sonic is still fast without taking advantage of the physics, but he can go even faster by doing so. It's not rocket surgery.

The alternative is that when I have a hill to climb instead of descend, or when I'm faced with relatively even terrain, I myself can still choose to hit the highest speeds if I want to without having to look for or happen upon for a impetus to be rewarded with the ability to do so.
And how would you go about doing this? What mechanic would you have in place?

Classic gameplay, due to the kind of level design involved, doesn't actually lend itself to the lengths of sustained momentum that the games I named do, so yes I do believe it's fairly incompatible in some ways, and certainly far lesser than the modern games.
How so?

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Just for the sake of it, why does it have to be classic for it to be as good as the classics? *jumps back out of this*
Well, there are tons of really great games, ones that exist now and ones that will (maybe) eventually be made. Super Mario Galaxy is a really great game. The Binding of Isaac is a really great game, even if it's pretty buggy. Metal Gear Solid 3 seems like a really great game, even if it's not really my thing.

None of these are Sonic games, though. I don't want Sonic to be Mario or Isaac or Snake. I want him to be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg-tgMELGb0.

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I would be worried that if 'they' did get rid of the boost, then Sonic would revert to Sonic 06 speed... And who wants to stop their momentum to 'spin dash(seems to me that would be a real buzzkill)? I mean, spin dash worked in the old games, but it is time to move on. Sonic has been and icon of speed and innovation since his first debut; boost game play modernizes this image.

Edited by Unidus

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Because you are simple?

No, because I like the feeling of speed you get from it. I like earning your speed just fine but there's just something about getting it instantly that I like. I guess, basically, I like instant gratification.

Edited by Grimchi3f

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My point is that it's no slight against a fast character to have ways for him to go even faster. No more than Galaxy's Spring Mushroom invalidate Mario's status as Jumpman, nor that he can walljump to go higher than any always-available jump can take him.

It is a slight against a supposedly fast character for his highest speeds to be entirely and completely dependent on going downhill or through the use of a contraption, especially when every other character is privy to this same ability as well. You're right; inclines and gravity tend to increase the speed of something. My out-of-shape self could probably gain some serious on-foot speeds running down a steep-enough hill if I were so inclined to risk my life doing that. Doesn't mean I'm Olympic material, or even generically "fast." It just means I was close to falling and my speed increased as a result. Nothing remarkable about it.

No, but that's the way Sonic does it. Or did it, when he was great.

Considering the reception and sales at the time, he was pretty great in the Adventure era too.

Sonic is still fast without taking advantage of the physics, but he can go even faster by doing so. It's not rocket surgery.

Which is something we can have without completely dismantling modern gameplay. Uncap Sonic's speed and allow gravity and inclines to have an effect on him even when he's boosting. Seems like an easily-solvable issue.

And how would you go about doing this? What mechanic would you have in place?

You could get away with this by simply capping Sonic's speed or by implementing a run button.

How so?

The only levels capable of this kind of gameplay are usually the first acts in the game where there's little in the way of steep inclines, walls, steps, puzzles, contraptions to use, and elements to wade through that will stop you from going forward. But I seriously doubt anyone here wants any future game to be composed of rehashes of Green Hill Act 1.

Edited by Nepenthe

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Because you are simple?

Wanna know what else is simple (in my humble opinion)? Sonic Adventure. I used to love playing both of the games in the Adventure series. Now-a-days, if I go back and replay the adventures, I get bored. Boosting adds that one element that had been missing since the genesis days, speed. I think that the only reason that the spin dash worked from 2-s3&k, was because it was done from the sidescroller perspective (like in generations classic game play). Unless you are hinting that you just want Sonic games to be played from that perspective, then I would strongly disagree. I find that the only way to play Sonic from the 3D viewpoint is via boost.

Edit: Sonic Adventure's spin dash was, also, poorly presented/implicated.

Edited by Unidus

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I agree with the poster above me. The spin dash in both adventures was tacked on.. or FELT like it was tacked on. I NEVER used it if I didn't need too. The Boost as ( Simple and game breaking ) as most people believe is useful. Or MORE useful than the spin dash in 3D. I would miss it... BUT this question I feel is a bit off.. as simply removing the boost doesn't fix the problem. Try playing sonic unleash without the boost.... I don't think you'll get too far. The level design makes it so, tho honestly.... I'm not a fan of either the dash OR the boost. The boost just works better for the games now.

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