Sonic Unleashed: Discussion about Sonic the Werehog

[Nepenthe]

Why would you stick combat sections in a platform game, you do realize that's the fundamental flaw of the Werehog in general right? Having combat sections is why games like Heroes blow.

The Ratchet and Clank series has combat-based sections all over the place. There's nothing wrong with having combat in a platformer. But what separates the Werehog from Heroes is that the former's pacing is more consistent with regards to the integration of both platforming and the combat. You'll never be gunning it at 1500 mph to be stopped by a random juggernaut robot that falls in your path. The Werehog's combat is also vastly superior to Heroes' anyway.

[Phos]

I spent a lot of my free time the week before Sonic Unleashed came out playing Ninja Gaiden 2 which has both much better combat (worlds better) and traversal, so man was the Werehog dull when I got around to him.

Dial a combo system, poor hit detection, slow air speed, slow walking speed such that you're basically running all the time, and so many tightrope bits.

[Kuzu]

The Ratchet and Clank series has combat-based sections all over the place. There's nothing wrong with having combat in a platformer. But what separates the Werehog from Heroes is that the former's pacing is more consistent with regards to the integration of both platforming and the combat. You'll never be gunning it at 1500 mph to be stopped by a random juggernaut robot that falls in your path. The Werehog's combat is also vastly superior to Heroes' anyway.

The Ratchet & Clank series is built around blowing shit up, so of course combat is going to be involved, Sonic is not that type of platformer. Sonic has built a series based on how he interacts with the environment, and how he can progress through it with combat being minimal at best. And I'd hardly call the Werehog consistent considering the levels are basically divided into a platforming section, then a beat'em section, then another platforming section, and then another beat'em section and so on. And while the Werehog's combat system is good, it's not something the series should be building upon and was met with the same lukewarm reaction as every other alt. Genre in this series.

[Nepenthe]

You asked why someone would put combat in a platformer. The implied answer from my rebuttal is because it's a feasible design choice. Don't resort to No True Scotsman now with qualifiers about what Sonic is and isn't. xP

I also find your reasoning disingenuous. I can't think of a single action/adventure title with battling in it has truly non-stop combat with no significant gameplay in-between; any such title just reverts to the fighting genre. Every game in this vain has you moving from battle to battle through a series of platforming, adventuring, or puzzle-solving, so if you're prepared to actually deride the Werehog as being inconsistent in this regard I'd suggest you also take that complaint up with God of War, Uncharted, Bayonetta, Devil May Cry, the new Resident Evil games, Kingdom Hearts, Zelda, etc..

This is all regardless of my point though: The Werehog's pacing is far more consistent than Heroes' because the difference in speeds encountered through platforming and battling are smaller than they are in Heroes, making the latter inherently more frustrating. This ultimately results from gameplay that was developed with a much better focus on combat. Yes, the Werehog may be a different genre, but it is indeed a singular genre with its own consistent internal workings that have worked for many other games and series before and after it. Heroes is, for all intents and purposes, a normal 3D Sonic game with heavy combat thrown in at random intervals. These things make your comparison between the two not all that insightful.

[---]

So not anything like Knuckles' regular gameplay at all, then.

When has Knuckles EVER had combat based gameplay?

[Megabox!]

I....LOVE this game!! The story, the art direction, the culture, the music. This is seriously one of my favorite Sonic games of all time. I even like this game more than SA2....yea I said it.

Sonic's daytime levels are a blast! Not nearly as big and creative as Generations levels but I still have a fun time with them.

The nighttime levels are really fun as well, the platforming is good and unique to this franchise( stretchy arms!!!!) and when the Werehog is fully upgraded he seriously KICKS ASS!

[Jar Jar Analysis 1138]

On 8/20/2012 at 5:35 AM, Semi-colon e said:

I have the same sort of problem with the Werehog stages as I do with the Sonic stages, in that there aren't really that many level specific gimmicks, you mostly do the same shit in each level, with a few gimmicks here and there that are brought back multiple times (the bobsled stuff, the water running, the poles you pull back to go forward, the pipe walking). It seemed like level gimmicks were only really a major thing in Cool Edge and Eggmanland. I liken it to 06 in that the Sonic levels tended to be slightly more fun but a fuck ton more frustrating and "kill you a lot because of arbitrary stuff", while the Werehog is more like Silver where it's less broken and frustrating, but a lot more tedious and drawn out. The fact you spend so much more time as Werehog than Sonic is insane, especially when the Werehog levels allow you to scour for medals more easily which is required.

 

It's not terrible, but could have been a lot more interesting. I certainly prefer the Werehog's QTEs than Sonic's though! Though they really really overdid the QTEs for the Werehog bosses, Egg Dragoon would have been incredible if we ripped the damn thing apart with our bare hands but nope, just press a bunch of buttons. Unleashed having the whole sacrificing gameplay for cinematics was a problem.

 

And Adabat Night is the best Night track imo, too bad you barely get to hear it because of the stupid combat music. That also hurt the Werehog's fun factor.

While I express some disagreements here and there, you do have a valid point that I consider bit of a flaw in Sonic World Adventure's level design. Gimmicks typically are stages that gives certain levels more of an identity and further compliments the stage theme. A lot of Sonic's levels, consist of similar gimmicks streamlined throughout. However...We have to take into consideration with the level structuring.  Not just the gimmicks. If the gimmicks take precedence over good level structure then that is a huge problem. Take Angel island for example. That stage has very little stage gimmicks yet the unique level design and great exploration is what makes it stand out. An example where gimmicks are poorly used over stage design is Carnival Night(despite that stage not being designed all greatly in the first place). 

How Sonic World Adventure does it is actually very creative and fairly common in Sonic games and platformers in general. Though it can become an issue if you don't have unique level design. I would go to stages like Chun-Nan, Abadat and Cool Edge to observe how they make the use of the Water gimmick. All of them range from Easy to Hard with each introduction of the gimmick building you up to train you for the final iteration, Jungle Joyride. This has lots of exploration for pathways, a ton of obstacles with not much help with the dash pads and short cuts. Even the first segment of the level you can just skip all of it by running of the beaten path.

Generations does negate the issue with stage gimmicks being a more absent(Although those are previous stages form different games..Take what you will).

So Yeah...That is how World Adventure makes use of a the small pool of gimmicks(I've said this too much). For all of what they used, it was a damn good job with every stage feeling quite different form each other.