He learned it on the Dreamcast

[Unholy Sonic]

I was playing SatBK and while playing the legacy stages, I was thinking about those flying eggpawn of Sonic Heroes....

It bugged me that only those one's were brought back in legacy stage... no challenge in them... Only standby flying... nothing else to do... perfect target for the homming attack without using the sword....

So that's when it hit me.

What would happen.... how would the Sonic game's be if Sonic never learned the homming attack. How big of a difference would the games be if he never had that technique?

In the past game like SA2 there was the bounce and somersault wich weren't used as much as the homming attack but they were still useful at some places yet not everywhere unless you wanna fool around. There was even the magic glove wich was for fun only, in my case.

Sonic heroes had the Sonic Tornado wich was useful to stun and get rid of the big guys yet hot as much as the homming attack at level 3....

So even tho we get other new skills... it's still can't overpower the homming attack, if that's the case what will?

But... if the homming attack never existed.... what would replace it? How would the game design, gameplay and enemies change?

Would completing a stage/zone/mission would be difficult without it?

Would the sonic game get better of worst rating? less negative critics? would sonic be known even more then mario?

So many questions yet so many answers (the usual in life )

What are your toughts on this? How would you feel to play a Sonic game without the homming attack? Would you even bother playing the game if he didn't have it?

Now...

Discuss, Debate but No Flamming please....

[Carbo]

By now I've gotten so used by the Homing Attack that I feel that a 3D Sonic game without it would render itself useless and unplayable without the flow.

Going back on how the jumping mechanics work, the Homing Attack is really only necessary in 3D because it would feel practically impossible to hit a target in the air or ground without it. Not only does it home into your enemies but it also gives you a further distance of running, and when combined while jumping it gives you the perfect flow and still keeps you on a steady speed while running. No Sonic game I've seen so far has however, used this to its full potential. The Sonic Adventure games had it grounded great, it did what it was supposed to do. It was however, albeit glitchy and pressing the jump button would sometimes automatically trigger the homing attack. This was worse with the glide in treasure hunting stages.

Sonic Heroes could arguabely be the most flawless moment with the homing attack since it kept giving the speed and it was helpful without any glitches, especially against... *shiver*... Health enemies.

Sonic 06's mechanics were downright useless and was only helpful when combating against enemies and locking onto a target. Its like Sonic does a complete gravity break in-air, that and you lose all your speed to it.

Sonic Unleashed would have had the most perfect use with it had it not been needlessly replaced with the Air Boost button.

I however see no use of it needing to be in a 2D Sonic game, hitting enemies in those games are obviously easier and it'd be way too easy with a homing attack. It's more of a challenge in 2D Sonic Games. Removing homing attack from 3D Sonic Games would result in too much of an annoying challenge, and seeing how all the games/levels are built up, its pretty much factual since everyone uses the homing attack all the time. 3D Sonic just wouldn't work without it.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Otsego Amigo

[Phos]

They made the homing attack to make hitting stuff in 3D easier automated.

You might notice that in most 3D Sonic games, you can barely affect Sonic's airborne trajectory at all unless you use either the homing attack or one of the game's specific moves. This is in sharp contrast to the Genesis games, where Sonic could speed up faster when in the air.

Dropping the HA and restoring aerial mobility would do wonders for 3D Sonic games. Even in it's buggy, unfinished state, 3D Sonic-ing without the HA is very doable in

[Rusty Spy]

You might notice that in most 3D Sonic games, you can barely affect Sonic's airborne trajectory at all unless you use either the homing attack or one of the game's specific moves. This is in sharp contrast to the Genesis games, where Sonic could speed up faster when in the air.

Not true. Jumping slows you down, especially when moving fast.

[Unholy Sonic]

I see... so... if they changed everything in stage design and make road enemies and other stuff in order that the homming attack won't be used, thing would be somewhat better or not?

I know that most of the people are too used to the HA but if the sonic game were made without it, if its less annoying that we could imagine, if is makes the games more enjoyable, would it be better accepted? would people change their mind into removing the HA in some games?

I'm saying that cause I wanna know how a sonic game would feel without it, not saying "banz teh huming ataq blargh!!" just to test it... tho the chance we'll get a non-HA sonic game are under 0%... ¬.¬

[Phos]

Not true. Jumping slows you down, especially when moving fast.

That's not the player doing that, that's the game. I usually specifically don't want that to happen.

[Rusty Spy]

That's not the player doing that, that's the game. I usually specifically don't want that to happen.

Then what do you mean by Sonic being able to speed up faster in the air.

[Phos]

In Sonic 1-3, you would accelerate faster in the air than on the ground.

[Unholy Sonic]

Well that depends, if the ground is flat or descending yes thats true but if your climbing a cliff then no.

Spindash was useful for a descending a cliff and destroying many robot ahead but.... on a flat ground you'll accelerate for a few... 4 secdons then slow down massively compare to jumping to gain more and more speed.

@Virgo

Try starting running on Sonic 1-3 and compare it to jumping right at the beggining, you'll see the difference.

---

On a side, if they had to remove the HA they would be kinda force to put an ability similar to SatSR/BK to gain even more speed when landing after a jump or gain more speed when you hit an enemy after jumping on it....

They would also have to put new abilities for aerial attacks... like um... tornado kick (SRA: aerial attack after hitting a spring), thunder shockwave (sonic battle: the aerial shockwave move) or another aerial attack thats completely different from the HA but can be countered by some enemies.

Let's face it... what enemy was completely immune to the homming atack except the spring shield eggpawn?

[Rusty Spy]

In Sonic 1-3, you would accelerate faster in the air than on the ground.

That is true, but the HA could do the same thing, acting as a jump dash.

[Diogenes]

The homing attack is an adequate (though certainly not stellar) solution to a very real problem. Just adding the third dimension, purely in terms of space and movement, makes hitting an enemy with a basic jump a fair bit harder, but it also brings along different camera angles and the difficulty of correctly estimating depth. And if that's not bad enough, because this is Sonic, you're supposed to be doing this stuff quickly as well. If you brought the mechanics of attacking in the 2D Sonic games into 3D without any changes, it's just not going to work nearly as well as they did in 2D.

So if you want to make a good 3D Sonic game, something has to change. Sonic Team's solution was the homing attack which, like I said, is only adequate. It eliminates most of the aiming, so if you're close enough, you're generally going to hit it. The problems with it, at least as it's been so far, range from being too easy, to slowing you to a stop, to (in later games) being way too unreliable and unpredictable. Some of the problems could be fixed, some are innate to the concept, so it's just adequate, good enough to pass but I wouldn't mind seeing a better idea.

The thing is, not many people are looking for that better idea. Sonic Team obviously isn't, what with the homing attack being a constant element for almost a decade now. And most of the fans are either fine with the homing attack as is (or at most just want it to work more consistently), or just want to get rid of the homing attack without suggesting any way to fix the problems it solved. The few ideas I have heard are kind of shaky; I haven't found one that I'd be willing to put my confidence in without it being tested first.

[Phos]

On a side, if they had to remove the HA they would be kinda force to put an ability similar to SatSR/BK to gain even more speed when landing after a jump or gain more speed when you hit an enemy after jumping on it....

They would also have to put new abilities for aerial attacks... like um... tornado kick (SRA: aerial attack after hitting a spring), thunder shockwave (sonic battle: the aerial shockwave move) or another aerial attack thats completely different from the HA but can be countered by some enemies.

Why would you need something like that?

That is true, but the HA could do the same thing, acting as a jump dash.

It could, but that's just taking the same thing and making it more complex.

The homing attack is an adequate (though certainly not stellar) solution to a very real problem. Just adding the third dimension, purely in terms of space and movement, makes hitting an enemy with a basic jump a fair bit harder, but it also brings along different camera angles and the difficulty of correctly estimating depth. And if that's not bad enough, because this is Sonic, you're supposed to be doing this stuff quickly as well. If you brought the mechanics of attacking in the 2D Sonic games into 3D without any changes, it's just not going to work nearly as well as they did in 2D.

Like I've been saying, Sonic has even better mobility in the air than on the ground. This makes correcting for a faulty estimation doable. That will work for most things. The only issue remaining are the springs. They're pretty small, but I think something like what they used in inFamous would work perfectly for the things Sonic has to hit. inFamous does move slower than a Sonic game, but a Sonic game also has much fewer things that need to be chosen between to hit, and it's just a question of hitting and not grabbing, so that's easier yet.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Phos

[SuperStingray]

I'm no fan of automation where it isn't necessary, i.e. Springs and Loops, but I like it when it's cool like in the tubes in Chemical Plant Zone or the BLOOPBLOOPBLOOP light tubes from the Death Egg. I personally think the homing attack is pretty cool, especially when hoping from one enemy to another. That said, it does have it's problems, but I still feel in some ways is a necessary evil for handling the third dimension as Dio said. Even if you were to have more mobility in the air, depth perception and control can still be a major issue.

[Unholy Sonic]

Why would you need something like that?

It's just suggestions/idea's that would replace the HA if it was removed. But it's not an obligation to put something in its place.

[Rusty Spy]

It could, but that's just taking the same thing and making it more complex.

All you do is press the jump button a second time. Doesn't sound so hard.

[Phos]

All you do is press the jump button a second time. Doesn't sound so hard.

I realize that. But that's still a case of pressing it once on the ground and then again in the air, versus the old method of pushing it once. There's also the matter of sudden acceleration like that being harder to control.

[The Stiv™]

It actually started in Sonic 3D with the gold shield .

[Larryb]

It actually started in Sonic 3D with the gold shield .

Make that Sonic 3&K. Hyper Sonic had a move very simmilar to the modern day homing attack.

[Rusty Spy]

I realize that. But that's still a case of pressing it once on the ground and then again in the air, versus the old method of pushing it once.

Still see nothing complicated about it.

There's also the matter of sudden acceleration like that being harder to control.

I never had a problem with controlling the acceleration. In fact, the HA didn't accelerate all that much. It pretty much brought Sonic up to his max running speed in SA and SA2, which wasn't all that fast to begin with.

[PSI Wind]

Actually, the HA started in 3D Blast, But as a shield.

EDIT:Beaten to it.

I really like the HA, it gives a much more accurate attack.

Edited May 30, 2009 by PSI Wind FTW!

[Reading]

I really like the Homing Attack. It makes Sonic look that much cooler - leaping into the air and just SMASHING into an enemy gives me a very nice sense of satisfaction, especially in Adventure 2, 2006, and Unleashed, where you hear a louder, more realistic metallic crash as Sonic strikes the enemy.

[lounge]

If they got rid of the HA, it just wouldn't feel as satisfying. Try jumping on an enemy without HAing, it just doesn't feel that great.

If they got rid of this, they'd definetly have to change sonic's momentum while in the air, like others have said. But 2d and 3d are totally different things. The HA wasn't sega's way of adding a new move. Just coping with 3d. Like how it says cope in spring yard. I suppose yasuhara wanted you to cope with the way the environment was built... or something with the springs.

I can definetly see the level design changing drastically as a result if they removed the HA.

I was surprised that they had it in sonic 3. It didn't actually home in on an enemy, but it did feel a lot more satisfying to kill a robot with it rather than jumping on them.

[Tyranno]

I'm... confused.

How does Sonic have more mobility in the air? He's basically FALLING with very limited control. How is that a basis for a superior alternative to the homing attack?

[Semi-colon e]

The homing attack is too useful. It's use should be a bit more limited and mostly for the item boxes, springs, and enemies though. And to the purists: it's still a spinning move.

I wish they'd do what they had in SA2 - hold the button after you do the homing attack and you'll float slightly. The physics worked really well, and I like to use it to freefall a bit slower after getting hits on the Biolizard, just for lols.

[Phos]

Dunno about it being more satisfying with the HA. I actually think it's the opposite, because you don't loose your speed. It makes taking out enemies very smooth.