He learned it on the Dreamcast

[Blazey Firekitty]

I figure the main the problem with losing the homing attack is that you'd have to rewire the physics to something that's more like the engine from the Mega Drive/Genesis titles, in order to keep the game from getting frustrating and unwiedly. While I'd love it if Sonic Team actually did that in a 3D game...I'm not sure there is anyone left at Sonic Team who knows how to program that way.

Edited May 30, 2009 by BlazeyBakeneko

[SuperStingray]

Dunno about it being more satisfying with the HA. I actually think it's the opposite, because you don't loose your speed. It makes taking out enemies very smooth.

Yeah, but regardless of whether or not it's a worse mechanic on the whole, it feels more powerful to SMASH them than just bopping or rolling into them.

[Gabz Girl]

The homing attack is a brilliant move and helps alot when it comes to destroying enemies. The times when it's a pain in the arse though is when you have to homing attack across a bottomless pit with enemies, springs and other stuff. It's worst in Sonic Heroes. >_>

[SuperStingray]

The times when it's a pain in the arse though is when you have to homing attack across a bottomless pit with enemies, springs and other stuff. It's worst in Sonic Heroes. >_>

I don't know about that; I mean, it can be bad when timings an issue and some of the enemies use spikes or electricity, but otherwise, it can be fun like in Day Act 5 of Spagonia or Metal Harbor.

[Phos]

Yeah, but regardless of whether or not it's a worse mechanic on the whole, it feels more powerful to SMASH them than just bopping or rolling into them.

I think it feels more powerful when you smash through them and keep going rather than be brought to a halt.

Edit: IIRC, there are electric enemies in Rooftop Run Act 5.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Phos

[Badnik Zero]

The homing attack. I've hated it since it was introduced. Actually, it was one of the little things about SA1 that made me ignore the game for years after its release. It changed the fundamentals of Sonic gameplay.

I'm fine with it now for the most part, because 3D Sonic grew on me as a thing of its own. But I still disagree with the principle behind the move. Homing moves have always been so cheap. Some of the cheapest weapons in games are homing weapons. Why? Because you lock on to win, there is zero skill involved in aiming something that hits anyways. They made Sonic himself into a homing missile, and that pissed me off. This is the first time platforming takes a blow from the 3D transition.

Mario comparison time. Mario 64 pretty much set the standard for 3D platforming. They had this problem too, but covered it very nicely with the jump cancel butt-stomp. If you're overshooting a jump, the butt-stomp brings you straight down, and even works as an attack. Sonic's got this in his bounce attack, which is incredibly useful and NOT cheap. My favorite. I use it in levels like Final Rush as a platforming aid, and it's fun to mash enemies with. It's not a cheap shortcut through platforming.

But Mario's not Sonic obviously. Sonic's faster, and in his 3D games he jumps to about four times his height on one button, which makes measuring accurate jumps very hard. Honestly, as much as I hate the move, 3D Sonic would be very different without it. It didn't feel out of place in Unleashed, especially with the boost as your primary move. I'd suggest a few things.

- Nerf the homing attack. It should be an attacking and platforming aid. Meaning it's up to you to do most of the work. I don't like this Sonic Heroes kind of stuff, where you'll be trailing in the air for ten seconds after homing attacking a boss. It looks stupid, and isn't really what the move is for. If it were up to me, I'd limit the range to a couple feet to draw the line between a good jump and a bad jump, so the move doesn't compensate for everything. Games like Sonic Rush are proof that a short range homing attack is a good platforming aid. I've saved myself many times with the burst version they have in that game. Attacking with the short range homing would mean jumping in the vicinity of the Badnik and activating it, and it would work on the move or even correcting backwards for cases where you overshoot a target's head. It could also give Sonic some speed, bounce a bit after popping an enemy, like how you could get height off a Badnik in the old games if you hit him with enough force.

- Another solution. The rolling attack. While this doesn't make much sense at first or apply to airbound enemies, it should work. This again is inspired by the classics and is missing in the newer games. Sonic does not have a rolling attack anymore, he has the spin dash. The difference is that the spin dash is too fast, it can't be aimed. With the rolling attack you could run directly at a Badnik, press crouch, and without changing speed, roll into a mostly invulnerable ball to pop him. This was in the old games, but if you try to spin dash an enemy in SA1 or SA2, you'll likely be far off the mark. This is a kill on the fly type of move that goes with the flow of the game, and isn't even as slow as it first seems. The spin dash has always been an acceleration move, but the ability to crouch and turn yourself into a rolling bullet was Sonic's primary attack, even more than the traditional platforming hop, I think. Anyways, speeding past enemies usually means ignoring them, so a slower move is needed.

TLDR - Homing sucks, bounce was better. Fix the homing attack's range or bring back the spin attack.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Badnikz

[Gabz Girl]

I don't know about that; I mean, it can be bad when timings an issue and some of the enemies use spikes or electricity, but otherwise, it can be fun like in Day Act 5 of Spagonia or Metal Harbor.

Ok, I agree it was fun in Metal Harbor. But the electric shield enemies and such..no, definitely not fun.

[The Adventurer]

I like the homing attack, but I'm not in love with it. It does solve the problem of hitting a small target while moving at 80+ mph, but it's very automatic. Static. Repetitive. I'd like to see it change to become more dynamic. Perhaps something involving follow-up attacks?

[SuperStingray]

I think it feels more powerful when you smash through them and keep going rather than be brought to a halt.

It kind of depends on how its handled. In the early games, while the enemies are generally more interesting and have more unique attack patterns, they just feel like balloons and not actual robots. You don't smash them, you pop them and just bounce off of them. And if you can just boost or roll right through them, they don't feel like much of a threat. Perhaps it's more of how the destruction appears in the later games in comparison, but I feel that something about the homing attack just gives it more "oomph."

[Double Agent Motobug]

Actually, Tails and Knuckles (and didn't Sonic?) had a rolling attack in Sonic Adventure 1 by simply tapping X or B. Sonic and Shadow had the flame-roll which homed into enemies and various targets in Sa2, but I know that's not what you're talking about.

o_O I wonder why Sonic Unleashed never had the spindash or a rolling attack in the 360 ones anyway? There was a crouch button and everything!

As for the Homing attack, I liked it in every game except Heroes, because in Heroes it felt loose and that you could fly off of the enemy you were homing onto at any moment. I forgot if they fixed that in Shadow. The Beta/demo Sonic 06 also had a very nice homing attack, which had an arc to it, and set you running at full speed when you hit the ground. T'was very handy.

Unleashed has a nice one too, I just wish that they never replaced it partway through with that utterly useless and terrible mid-air boost. x.x; I keep wanting to homing attack to gain a bit of distance on my jump, but instead I'm sent flying way passed my mark, and way into a corner of the level, where I die. D: That's why I haven't bought any of the DLC levels, 'cause I hear there are quite a few pits, and I can't homing attack.

[Phos]

Actually, Tails and Knuckles (and didn't Sonic?) had a rolling attack in Sonic Adventure 1 by simply tapping X or B. Sonic and Shadow had the flame-roll which homed into enemies and various targets in Sa2, but I know that's not what you're talking about.

o_O I wonder why Sonic Unleashed never had the spindash or a rolling attack in the 360 ones anyway? There was a crouch button and everything!

Because Hashimoto thought that "new Sonic" could be better than the Genesis Sonics.

As for the Homing attack, I liked it in every game except Heroes, because in Heroes it felt loose and that you could fly off of the enemy you were homing onto at any moment. I forgot if they fixed that in Shadow. The Beta/demo Sonic 06 also had a very nice homing attack, which had an arc to it, and set you running at full speed when you hit the ground. T'was very handy.

I don't know about how it compares to Heroes, but the HA in Shadow is pretty bad. As for 06, the demo almost seems more finished in some ways than the full game. There are glitches you can do in the full version that don't work in the demo.

It seems to me that using the Homing Attack as an air dash is one of many things wrong with it. In addition to pinball dynamics not working so well with it...

Unleashed has a nice one too, I just wish that they never replaced it partway through with that utterly useless and terrible mid-air boost. x.x; I keep wanting to homing attack to gain a bit of distance on my jump, but instead I'm sent flying way passed my mark, and way into a corner of the level, where I die. D: That's why I haven't bought any of the DLC levels, 'cause I hear there are quite a few pits, and I can't homing attack.

... there's the way the HA is also a sudden burst of speed like that. Bottomless pits are something that needs to go as well.

[Djawed]

Homing attack has easened up the games. I really have no problem with the move, id really hate it if theyd remove it.

The only thing they forgot to do is to adept the difficulty to the new move.. sonic heroes kinda did but id like to see more enemies that arent easy to hit and stuff.. especially in the later stages.

Good example i think would be sonic 06 and that was poorly done so maybe if it were polished it could be nice.

I liked how there were so many enemies in the game, platforming was also very nice in sonic 06

[redmenace]

No one can take the Homing attack. It's a handy move for a character that is that fast in 3D. It's easy to make it redundant though, make the enemies on the ground (rolling to a ball does the trick) that make you stop and lose momentum when you hit them with HA, spiked enemies (hit from below/up), electricty enemies (having to wait), shielded enemies (only bouncing on them)...

I do think that there wouldn't be much need for the HA in the 2D sections if they did it right either.

[ovarloard]

I don't know how the homing attack would work in a 3D game, because I'm very used to it by now. I think it'd be like a 2D Mario Game, where the only option would be jumping over pits, and that's not as fun to me as chaining together homing attacks to get to one side.

[bmn]

If the homing attack were to be taken out in favour of the original bouncing deal from the 8-32 bit games, I very much doubt it would work without a targeting system (i.e. what makes the homing attack strike a specific enemy). How I'd picture a system like this:

• Player holds down a button to enter targeting mode (yes, I know, but I don't see this working any other way, as a global targeting mode would just not work).
  
• At all times in this mode, the camera looks in the same direction as the character, and clockwise/anticlockwise turning is slowed to improve control accuracy - consider the day stages in Unleashed; specific sections where Sonic's acceleration and speed are slowed for this reason.
  
• The character is automatically turned (slowly, so as to allow the player to change things up if they want) towards the current targeted enemy - the idea being it helps with the problem of the third dimension (Z axis) being added to what is a 2D concept. Along with the camera behaviour above, this also helps with bouncing from one enemy to another.
  
• In addition, when jumping in order to bounce on an enemy, the engine makes small adjustments to jump height and forward travelling speed to (assuming the jump is mostly accurate) assure the jump lands on the enemy - this makes up for the difficulty in gauging distances in 3D.
  

Whether a system like this would actually work in practice? Who knows? The mapping of a targeting mode to a button would allow players to forsake it in favour of doing it all manually instead, or avoid enemies altogether in the same way as the 3D games do already. But perhaps trying to bring this 2D platforming concept to 3D just wouldn't be any good to play. The homing attack is the most logical, and effective replacement, which is why it's barely seen a change in 10 years.

[Phos]

If you're suggesting something like a Z-target, that's overkill. If you haven't yet, I suggest you try Damizean's engine test.

Edit:

On the subject of the HA's alleged necessity in 3D, keep one thing in mind: The HA was necessary during the 2D portions of Sonic Unleashed (PS360). The need wasn't created by the third dimension, it was created by the ass backwards physics they started using.

I will concede that depth perception could be an issue, but but you must realize that I advocate a change in level design philosophy that requires much less precision from the player. Also, certain aspects of Sonic make judging distances much less important than they are in other 3D games. Mario has to land on top of his enemies to beat them, but Sonic can hit them from below or the sides or where ever (this blew my mind back in the day). If that's still too difficult, make the target larger or add a "floor funnel" type effect to whatever Sonic needs to hit. Actually, I think I'd add that last part to springs either way.

Edited June 1, 2009 by Phos

[bmn]

I will agree that the physics in the 3D games make the old-school bouncing almost impossible; you get pretty much no height if you don't use HA, and that's only the beginning. The odd area in Sonic Unleashed oddly does work (e.g. the clock tower in Rooftop Run Day 1), but it's more of a happy coincidence than anything else.

The floor funnel deal you mentioned is the sort of thing I was thinking about with the adjustments to speed/trajectory. Don't get me wrong, I'm totally against the idea of the engine magically making you face the nearest enemy straight away. What I was thinking was more along the lines of "put the camera behind me so I can see exactly what I'm doing, assume that my control isn't quite precise enough to get a good hit on my own, and help me out a little", not so much "I've targeted this enemy/box/spring, make sure I hit it".

Thinking about it a little more, perhaps the button assignment isn't necessary and that such a thing could come into play only in situations where you need it. But I do think that some kind of camera assistance would be necessary.

I hadn't played the engine test you mentioned, but having done so I'm not sure what you're getting at with it. Obviously the FPS-style controls played a part, but I had a horrible time aiming at anything, going through loop-de-loops etc. About the only thing I could do easily was jump at platforms at slow speed (which, amusingly, is easier to do than in Unleashed). A funnel effect on the loop-de-loops in particular would go a long way. I don't really think it'd help to make 3D Sonic controls even more hit-and-miss than they already are, though. I can't even imagine jump-attacking a relatively small object in that engine.

[BlazingTales]

My stance on the issue is ‘why fix what’s not broken?’. The HA is a decent and efficient way to overcome the 3D perspective issue. Games like Mario 64 and Zelda OoT have similar homing systems (Mario’s punch pulls him forward a bit, hitting the enemy if you are in the general area of it, and Zelda has Navi targeting the enemies for you). The HA is a fun and stylish way to get the job done.

However, that is not to say you can’t have a bit of a challenge to it. Certain enemies should be more challenging to hit by have shields, lasers, and heck, how about dodging it for once? Sonic should also have other moves to attack too; never limit it to just the HA.

[Phos]

I hadn't played the engine test you mentioned, but having done so I'm not sure what you're getting at with it. Obviously the FPS-style controls played a part, but I had a horrible time aiming at anything, going through loop-de-loops etc. About the only thing I could do easily was jump at platforms at slow speed (which, amusingly, is easier to do than in Unleashed). A funnel effect on the loop-de-loops in particular would go a long way. I don't really think it'd help to make 3D Sonic controls even more hit-and-miss than they already are, though. I can't even imagine jump-attacking a relatively small object in that engine.

The "vomit cam" (F2) goes a long way to dealing with having a hard time hitting loops, but the ground controls are a tad lacking. Rather than turning, Sonic just accelerates in a different direction. I think Adventure 1 had the ground movement about right for just running (Adventure 2 had to screw it up, though), but this test's mid air controls were the real point of that example. As for hitting things, Sonic's enemies are usually at least as large as Sonic, and they could b made even bigger if it's a problem. I'm also an advocate of a general reduction in the precision the game expects from the player, primarily in the case of how large a thing that you need to land on should be, and virtual removal of pitfalls.

My stance on the issue is ‘why fix what’s not broken?’. The HA is a decent and efficient way to overcome the 3D perspective issue. Games like Mario 64 and Zelda OoT have similar homing systems (Mario’s punch pulls him forward a bit, hitting the enemy if you are in the general area of it, and Zelda has Navi targeting the enemies for you). The HA is a fun and stylish way to get the job done.

I feel like it would offer a smoother more engaging experience if it wasn't in the game. It isn't a case of "I don't like it because it wasn't in Sonic 1/2/3", or something like that. It primarily has to do with the way it replaces your momentum.

And I wouldn't say it's not broken. I'm sure we've all been killed by a HA misfire.

However, that is not to say you can’t have a bit of a challenge to it. Certain enemies should be more challenging to hit by have shields, lasers, and heck, how about dodging it for once? Sonic should also have other moves to attack too; never limit it to just the HA.

I think that might be putting too much emphasis on combat.

[SuperStingray]

And I wouldn't say it's not broken. I'm sure we've all been killed by a HA misfire.

Yeah, but I've been saved by it too so it evens out.

[Phos]

Really "saved you" or was the level was just designed such that you needed to use it there?

[BlazingTales]

I feel like it would offer a smoother more engaging experience if it wasn't in the game. It isn't a case of "I don't like it because it wasn't in Sonic 1/2/3", or something like that. It primarily has to do with the way it replaces your momentum.

And I wouldn't say it's not broken. I'm sure we've all been killed by a HA misfire.

I think that might be putting too much emphasis on combat.

I never felt like it replaces momentum too much. In fact, I feel that it helps boost your momentum, although I really don't know exactly what you are talking about so I'll leave it at that XP.

The only time I've ever died by misfire was Heroes-06, which were all broken games to begin with. This problem can also be fixed with better level designs that don't have as many bottomless pits.

I guess it's all about how ST executes certain game mechanics. Enemies can dodge and sheild without it becoming a brawler. Sonic could slow down occasionally to take out a few enemies and it wouldn't interupt the flow of the game any more that platforming, as long as it's done correctly (similar to Spongia Act 1 where he has to take out 3 enemies to have the zip line drop down).

[Rusty Spy]

I feel like it would offer a smoother more engaging experience if it wasn't in the game. It isn't a case of "I don't like it because it wasn't in Sonic 1/2/3", or something like that. It primarily has to do with the way it replaces your momentum.

And I wouldn't say it's not broken. I'm sure we've all been killed by a HA misfire.

Of course that doesn't mean it can't be fixed.

A good idea I thought of would be, having the HA giving a slight speed boost (about 1.5x) when used on it's own until it reaches a speed cap (which would be Sonic's max running speed on a flat plane with no other influences), after which, it will only keep you at your initial top speed and won't increase your speed any further, same initial speed when locking onto an enemy, and about 3/4 of the speed you were after hitting an enemy.

This all works in conjunction with your momentum so that the HA doesn't give instant speed from a stand still, but allows the player to retain most of their speed after performing the HA.

Really "saved you" or was the level was just designed such that you needed to use it there?

One awesome thing you could do in SA2, if you are hit off of a platform, you can jump back up in midair and Homing Attack back onto the stage preventing death.

This has saved me many times in Final Rush. It's a total shame you can't do this in later games.

Edited June 5, 2009 by Pidgeot

[SuperStingray]

Really "saved you" or was the level was just designed such that you needed to use it there?

If I'm going too fast and about to fall off a ledge unexpectedly, jumping and homing back often helps me recover and restabilize.