Super Sonic's effect on and role in the series

[TheOcelot]

There is no doubt that Super Sonic was a great addition to the Sonic series. Not essential, but it was nice to have a reward for collecting the seven chaos emeralds.

Super Sonic's introduction in Sonic 2 was really fun. It wasn't the best version of Super Sonic in the 2d games, which is understandable because Sonic 2 was it's introduction-first attept. What I didn't like about Sonic 2's version was that you automatically transformed when you jumped after collecting 50 rings. Also in Sonic 2 you were so fast as Super Sonic that it is difficult to control him sometimes which can easily lead to some cheaps deaths/loss of lives. All that raping the landscape.

This they rectified in Sonic 3&K, The need to press double jump twice giving you the chance to collect as many rings a you like, then just morph into Super Sonic in an emergency to take down a boss etc if you wish, was much better. Also, whilst Super Sonic was still blindingly quick in S3&K, the control of Super Sonic is much better that in Sonic 2. The overall physics engine in S3&K is a lot better that Sonic 2.I notice that not many people acknowledge this.

The Super Sonic version in Sonic 4 Episode 1 was nothing special, but it was nice to see this form return in regular gameplay. I would have liked to have had a different physics engine version of Super Sonic in Episode 2, instead of the Episode 1 version that they re-used.

I never really liked the idea of the emeralds being obtained through cutscenes like in SA1. I always prefer obtaining them in a special stage. I do wonder though if the boost mechanic in games like Unleashed almost makes it less necessary to be Super Sonic (as you already blindingly quick). I mean I would loved to have been able to play as Super Werehog in all the werehog stages.

One final thought. There are plenty of Sonic games out there which didn't need Super Sonic to be a great success, like Sonic CD and Sonic 1.

Edited August 25, 2012 by MilesKnightwing

[Emmett L. Brown]

I'm down with the complaint that the Super Sonic final bosses are getting too predictable, to the point where it's a huge suprise when you DON'T go Super against the final boss. I wasn't even aware I was fighting the final boss in Sonic Colors until the orchestrated main theme started playing, and then I was really pleased (good thing I didn't know about the DS versions final boss at the time).

I get a little tired of winning through every challenge of the game as regular Sonic only to be told that "No, the final boss is too powerful for you to beat". especially if it's apparent that the only reason you can't play normally is because the boss can fly. I actually really enjoyed Sonic Generations' version of the Perfect Chaos boss fight just for being a non-Super boss battle. Even though my story geek sense tells me that without Super Sonic you couldn't neutralise Perfect Chaos so he'd just reform after the battle full of rage, I'm gonna ignore that for the boss fight being fucking awesome.

What I'd really like to see in a future Sonic game is a twist where it's the villain who turns Super for the final boss fight, and Sonic doesn't transform at all. Basically something like the Super Mecha Sonic boss but more epic and 3D and orchestral and you know. Give me a final boss that can injure Sonic with all his attacks instead of just delaying him while his Super ring counter depletes. I'd actually look to Sonic Rush 1 & 2 for examples of really hard non-Super final bosses, and I want to see the like in a 3D main series title.

[TheOcelot]

What I'd really like to see in a future Sonic game is a twist where it's the villain who turns Super for the final boss fight, and Sonic doesn't transform at all. Basically something like the Super Mecha Sonic boss but more epic and 3D and orchestral and you know. Give me a final boss that can injure Sonic with all his attacks instead of just delaying him while his Super ring counter depletes. I'd actually look to Sonic Rush 1 & 2 for examples of really hard non-Super final bosses, and I want to see the like in a 3D main series title.

I like the boss in S3&K, death egg Zone Act 2 when the Robot is shooting deadly Super Emerald energy at Sonic. If you are Super Sonic with no rings then that can be a very tricky boss indeed, because it's all about the timing when Sonic needs to jump to avoid the burst of energy. Whereas if your Hyper ort Super Sonic, the energy from the Master Emerald does not affect you.

[Pawn]

It would be nice if a game subverted our expectations by starting out the final battle as Super Sonic, then have the villain (whether that be Eggman or someone independent of him) drain him of his Chaos energy (ala the Unleashed opening, but in a higher stakes endgame). It would force Sonic to find another way. As for how I felt about him in the 3D games:

I enjoyed the use of Super Sonic in the Adventure games because it was new. Adventure was the first time we saw him in a 3D main series game, as well as take down a god. It hadn't become the norm for SA2 so, with the added revelation that Shadow possessed the same ability, it was actually somewhat of a surprise. It was a pretty cool 'rebirth' for Shadow in a sense as well, considering his recent moral turnaround. In Heroes, however, I just wanted a classic Sonic vs. Metal Sonic battle. Unfortunately Sonic did the obvious and Metal did the downright ridiculous. Meanwhile I was fine with Burning Blaze in Rush, seeing as she's supposed to be some kind of counterpart to Sonic in another dimension, but '06 returned to the same old boring formula and even added another Super hedgehog. FFS, this isn't DBZ. Booooring.

Things got more interesting though when Eggman actually defeated Super Sonic in the opening of Unleashed. It's a pity that that was the end of the excitement for me, but there's no denying that that was awesome. The Gaia battle returned to old habits though. I suppose they didn't have much of a choice, considering they had to at least try to match the opening. It was refreshing for Colours to leave it out of the story, yet it was kind of boring playing as Super as the levels were designed with the Wisps in mind. Generations can be forgiven for the story inclusion of Super Sonic given the nature of the game, but it's just not fun to play as him in the levels.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Lungo

[Your Vest Friend]

I'd actually look to Sonic Rush 1 & 2 for examples of really hard non-Super final bosses

Didn't that have super final boss fights as well?

[Jack / Joker]

Super Sonic seems to have been nerfed spectacularly for some reason. He's no longer fully invincible, the ring count has been sped up horrifically (yes, when I first activated him in Colors and saw the ring count go down, I crapped myself, yeah), Classic Super Sonic is barely better than just Invincibility, and there are many better skills in Generations... Why can't I just unlock him without paying, anyway? At least he's back I guess?

[Milo]

Echoing everyone else that Super Sonic usage in plots needs to be toned down, Super Sonic exclusive to and required to defeat final boss needs to be scrapped, Super Sonic ingame use needs to be fixed yadda yadda yadda.

I'd personally like to see a game that revolves on Sonic using his other forms as well as new ones, like Excalibur and Darkspine from the Storybook series and the Werehog from Unleashed. Even better if he summoned the use of those forms without their required MacGuffins (regarding the Storybook series) or it being a result of the plot (regarding Unleashed).

I've even like to see a case in which for the final boss, Sonic without his Super form had to fight an enemy in a Super form, a la Knuckles vs Super Mecha Sonic from Sonic 3&K. In such a case, I'd like to see normal Sonic vs. Super Metal Sonic.

Regarding Super forms for Sonic's friends, I'd rather they are only used (only a couple of times perferrable) as an unlockable mode that has little-to-no relevance in the plot, like the original use of Super Sonic in Sonic 2 as well as the hyper forms in Sonic 3&K.

[Emmett L. Brown]

Didn't that have super final boss fights as well?

Yup, and that's why I named them as examples of hard final bosses, not as examples of games without Super Sonic bosses.

I define a final boss as the last climax battle before the credits roll. Egg Viper, for example, is a final boss and a pretty great final boss since it tests most of the skills you've practiced playing through Sonic's story. Perfect Chaos, by comparison, is kinda weak. It's a fantastic climax boss with awesome music and visuals, but all it amounts to is dodging attacks and running from point A to point B before your timer runs out.

Can't be helped that a lot of Sonic games have more than one final boss. I see why the Advance games got into the habit of calling the Super Sonic boss for "Extra Boss".

[Chaos Warp]

I really don't mind him TBH, they just need to use him less as a plot device (gameplay is fine). So only have a Super boss once in a while.

Honestly, they should use him less and at differing points in the plot instead of as a last minute solution that fixes everything. Oh top of that, make him vulnerable. Yeah, we all know Super Sonic is almost completely invulnerable, but that didn't stop Knuckles from punching him out of the state with a surprise attack nor did it stop Eggman from sapping the energy from him. That's two vulnerabilities.

How about using the Master Emerald to neutralize the form for whomever can use it? Or how about you make a threat so overwhelming that while Super Sonic can still fight it, it causes a lot of collateral damage to the people around him that he's trying to protect and therefore the form doubles as a liability? How about something that's also invincible in that while it still can't hurt Super Sonic, Super Sonic can't hurt it back either, requiring another means than just throwing an invulnerable hedgehog at it to stop it?

I do like the punch out weakness. To expand, I figure that if Sonic's not really concentrating on keeping the form, a surprise attack strong enough could de-power him. Although I don't really like the collateral damage weakness. Super Sonic has always been a decently controlled form, and most of his attacks involve ramming and extension of Sonic's natural abilities, which don't cause much damage other then to the boss. Other then that I like all of these weakness.

So, use him less as a plot device, and give him some weaknesses.

[Diogenes]

Simple, just dont use him for story purposes in every game. Worked for Colors.

Well use him less for starters.

This might help us appreciate him more when he does show up (in the story) again, but it doesn't actually make him any more interesting, it doesn't fix his role in the story.

I will be one of the few here, who will say that they need to implement Super Sonic in the plot more. ...But differently. I want Sonic to surpass his super form. Yes, Hyper Sonic. There will be a point, in which Eggman will realise ( at least I hope so) that his efforts haven't been good enough and that he eventually builds the ultimate robot, that not even Super Sonic can surpass. If Sonic and his super form's power cannot surpass a greater evil, he will be force to ascend. That will give chance for a lot of character development, in my opinion.

Yelling louder and glowing more is not character development.

[WarioBone]

This might help us appreciate him more when he does show up (in the story) again, but it doesn't actually make him any more interesting, it doesn't fix his role in the story.

He's around so much anymore, I honestly don't even want to know a damn thing about the guy. What else would there be to know? Super Sonic has LONG overstayed his welcome. I wouldn't be remissed if the character was ditched altogether, at least for a while.

[Kuzu]

This might help us appreciate him more when he does show up (in the story) again, but it doesn't actually make him any more interesting, it doesn't fix his role in the story.

Well when you get down to it, Super Sonic is a power up and nothing more, both gameplay and plot wise he's never been anything more than a plot device so I honestly don't know what else to do, I don't mind this as that was always his purpose. If anything I'd give more of a justification for Sonic going super than simple being against the final boss, I mean it'd be nice for the game to show that the enemy is somebody Sonic can't take down without some assistance.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

It would be nice if a game subverted our expectations by starting out the final battle as Super Sonic, then have the villain (whether that be Eggman or someone independent of him) drain him of his Chaos energy (ala the Unleashed opening, but in a higher stakes endgame). It would force Sonic to find another way.

Kinda sounds like the idea I posted a few posts up.

[TheOcelot]

He's around so much anymore, I honestly don't even want to know a damn thing about the guy. What else would there be to know? Super Sonic has LONG overstayed his welcome. I wouldn't be remissed if the character was ditched altogether, at least for a while.

Perhaps they could do a plot where Sonic loses his ability to transform into Super Sonic due to his over use of the emeralds. He has morphed into Super Sonic countless times.

Edited August 25, 2012 by MilesKnightwing

[Komodin]

Hm, why not take a cue from Sonic the Comic and make Super Sonic himself an antagonist for a change, as an Enemy Without?

[DarkDefeater]

Aw, so much anti Super Sonic sentiment. While I understand it, it also makes me sad. You see, I love the super forms, very much. To me, they're almost just as much a part of the Sonic games as ring collecting.

Also, prior to Sonic 4 and Sonic colors, I waited so long for Super Sonic to be playable in-game. Finaly being able to play as an in-game super form made me very happy. I certainly do not want to lose that.

I understand that Super Sonic being involved as a final boss element has become cliche, but as others have said, just keep him out of the plot, make it an optional gameplay element only, and then in later games, mix up the plot elements. There can be a Super fight, in the middle of a game, to mix things up.

There has also been some feeling about that there should be some bosses that are invulnerable to Super Sonic, where Sonic has to do more than just ram it, but this has already been done before. It was done in Sonic & Knuckles, where in the second phase of 'The Doomsday' , Sonic had to redirect missiles to Robotnik's craft. A similiar thing was done in Advance 2 and in Advance 3, Eggman had to be thrown at the transformed monster before Super Sonic could even damage it. Perhaps such a development could occur in the 3d games.

Honestly though, if they keep the super form out of the plot for awile, while keeping the optional super form for all levels, not just the final boss, I'll be a happy camper.

As for Super Sonic's gameplay, I don't mind him being overpowered. That is his charm. After going through a game using skill, it's fun just to bulldoze everything in an overpowered invincibility mode. In fact, not being overpowered enough was one of the complaints I and others had about Sonic Generations. I don't think Super Sonic gameplay needs to be altered that much, just keep him out of the plot or have something done to keep the concept fresh.

As mentioned, using the Master Emerald to drain someone out of their super form could be really intresting. But it would have do be done carefully, or else it would look kinda like Unleashed's intro.

[Kuzu]

Maybe a plot similar to Komodin's idea, where Super Sonic is separated from Sonic and they have to stop him, but because Sonic and his Super form are one and the same they're slowly dying due to being separated, and the gang have to use the Master Emerald to re seal them(don't ask how, just roll with it), but Super Sonic having Sonic's sense of genre savvy shatters the emerald and the group have to find the shards before Super Sonic causes anymore trouble. Eggman might wanna try to harness Super's power for himself so he'll never lose again, or some shit. It'd be a nice twist on using super forms for one.

[Vertekins]

Hm, why not take a cue from Sonic the Comic and make Super Sonic himself an antagonist for a change, as an Enemy Without?

Because it would suddenly and hugely contradict the way Super Sonic has been portrayed in the past? As a form that has never been shown to exhibit anything other than Sonic's normal mannerisms and as a form that is not ever hinted to be a separate entity?

Never did like Fleetway Super Sonic. I suppose it's cool that it led to some very interesting stories but I don't think introducing such a concept in the games would do Sonic any favours.

Anyways, I've frequently felt that Super Sonic's abilities are far too limited. You'd think he'd have more abilities than just dashing or imbuing energy into something else (Sadv3) or deflecting projectiles (Sonic Rush and SRA) for such a supposedly powerful form. What struck me as a little weird is how this form is stated to take a heck of a toll on Sonic's body and energy reserves (SONIC CHANNEL profile, Sonic Unleashed) yet doesn't do a whole lot that could be construed as being varied regarding abilities.

Also, always hated how he frequently ruins the soundtrack when he's activated.

Still, he's an awesome and iconic form. And it is pretty cool playing as him despite the fact that he's frequently broken.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Vertekins

[Kuzu]

Because it would suddenly and hugely contradict the way Super Sonic has been portrayed in the past? As a form that has never been shown to exhibit anything other than Sonic's normal mannerisms and as a form that is not ever hinted to be a separate entity?

Never did like Fleetway Super Sonic. I suppose it's cool that it led to some very interesting stories but I don't think introducing such a concept in the games would do Sonic any favours.

The fact that the form is so played out to the point of being a cliche isn't any better, and honestly, it's not contradicting much considering Chaos Energy has been shown to corrupt people depending on thoughts, so it's not exactly farfeched

[Chaos Warp]

Because it would suddenly and hugely contradict the way Super Sonic has been portrayed in the past? As a form that has never been shown to exhibit anything other than Sonic's normal mannerisms and as a form that is not ever hinted to be a separate entity?

To be fair, all Super Sonic is in the games is Sonic powered up by the emeralds, so of course it's gonna act like Sonic because it is Sonic, just powered up. So if the form somehow was separated from him and took on it's own physical body, we don't really know how it would act.

[Vertekins]

The fact that the form is so played out to the point of being a cliche isn't any better, and honestly, it's not contradicting much considering Chaos Energy has been shown to corrupt people depending on thoughts, so it's not exactly farfeched

...And Sonic is prone to dark thoughts despite a vital part of his character development being that he never surrenders to dark thoughts?

Darkspine is a unique exception, a form that was clearly forced upon him before he was able to put up resistance and the very nature of Darkspine's power source being things that epitomize emotions. That form was made more believable by the fact that whenever Sonic picked up World Rings, he had the ability to sense the emotions they carried without being explicitly told beforehand and had the ability to not let himself sink too deeply into them (Such as with the Blue and Red Rings) and the fact that despite Darkspine clearly looking corrupt, he isn't in any way, shape or form evil or malevolent.

The concept of Super becoming a distinct entity separate from Sonic and acting on some kind of evil instinct just seems silly to me and too "Dark Sonic"-esque for my personal liking. If Super Sonic is powered by only positive Chaos energy which is powered by positive thoughts then I fail to see how the form being separate could possibly be malevolent without losing it's very essence that makes it what it is.

[Emmett L. Brown]

and honestly, it's not contradicting much considering Chaos Energy has been shown to corrupt people depending on thoughts, so it's not exactly farfeched

I can't recall any examples of that in the games. Which source are you referencing?

[Vertekins]

I can't recall any examples of that in the games. Which source are you referencing?

Perfect Chaos was the only entity that has ever done this to my memory. Not so sure if Chaos Blast Shadow in his self-titled game goes by the same mechanics.

[Emmett L. Brown]

Perfect Chaos was the only entity that has ever done this to my memory. Not so sure if Chaos Blast Shadow in his self-titled game goes by the same mechanics.

I'm pretty sure his insane rampage was more due to seeing his fellow chao slaughtered in front of him. But since it's explicitly said that Chaos Emeralds are affected by positive and negative emotions, I'd totally agree that his anger was related to him powering up and wiping out the echidna civilisation.

[Vertekins]

I'm pretty sure his insane rampage was more due to seeing his fellow chao slaughtered in front of him. But since it's explicitly said that Chaos Emeralds are affected by positive and negative emotions, I'd totally agree that his anger was related to him powering up and wiping out the echidna civilisation.

He does absorb all of the negative energy out of the emeralds when he turns into Perfect Chaos in the modern world. Then the characters come to the conclusion that Chaos only accessed the negative and not the positive. So Sonic could become Super utilizing only the positive energy of the emeralds without any negative energy whatsoever since Chaos had already consumed all of the negative.

It's even stated after the battle that Sonic managed to neutralize Chaos, presumably due to positive chaos energy > Negative chaos energy.