Super Sonic's effect on and role in the series

[Emmett L. Brown]

He does absorb all of the negative energy out of the emeralds when he turns into Perfect Chaos in the modern world. Then the characters come to the conclusion that Chaos only accessed the negative and not the positive. So Sonic could become Super utilizing only the positive energy of the emeralds without any negative energy whatsoever since Chaos had already consumed all of the negative.

It's even stated after the battle that Sonic managed to neutralize Chaos, presumably due to positive chaos energy > Negative chaos energy.

Okay, you've got that one on me. That's definitely proof that the Chaos Emeralds can alter somebody's emotional state.

I guess if Chaos was driven off the deep end by using the Emeralds way back when it makes it a little more acceptable that he basically gets forgiven for everything after killing possibly millions of people by flooding a major city AND flooding all the buildings from within. Well, unless we're in the magical happy-land of 4Kids dubbing where nobody dies from environmental disasters and guns shoot laser sound effects.

[Kuzu]

...And Sonic is prone to dark thoughts despite a vital part of his character development being that he never surrenders to dark thoughts?

There's a difference between giving in to dark thoughts, and being corrupted by an uncontrollable power out of your own will.

The concept of Super becoming a distinct entity separate from Sonic and acting on some kind of evil instinct just seems silly to me and too "Dark Sonic"-esque for my personal liking. If Super Sonic is powered by only positive Chaos energy which is powered by positive thoughts then I fail to see how the form being separate could possibly be malevolent without losing it's very essence that makes it what it is.

It's not an instinct, the Chaos Emeralds have always been shown to have a positive and negative side, what's stopping from some of the negative energy corrupting Sonic's Super form and turning it into a malevolent being? Matter of fact, it'd be the perfect opportunity to explore a more negative side to Sonic quite similar to the shadows of the Persona series. I know Sonic is generally a positive guy, but really, does the fact that he seems physically incapable of negative emotions not strike anyone as odd or completely unbelievable.

[Diogenes]

It's not an instinct, the Chaos Emeralds have always been shown to have a positive and negative side, what's stopping from some of the negative energy corrupting Sonic's Super form and turning it into a malevolent being?

Here I think we have a disagreement regarding how the emeralds operate. I don't believe the emeralds simply "contain" positive and negative power, as if Super Sonic is just siphoning off the positive energy stored in them, and could potentially suck up some of the negative energy too. The way I see it, when the emeralds are being used, they produce power, based off the user's emotions. And you're not going to get much/any negative energy when Sonic's using them, because he doesn't really have a dark side that would produce it.

I know Sonic is generally a positive guy, but really, does the fact that he seems physically incapable of negative emotions not strike anyone as odd or completely unbelievable.

I don't think anyone is saying that Sonic has no negative emotions at all, but that he doesn't have any particular "dark side". No hidden trauma, no thoughts he'd dare not speak aloud, no real dysfunction that he would need to overcome.

I wouldn't mind Sonic being presented as a more rounded character, but I don't think there's a whole lot to actually explore in it. I mean, what would you have them do with it?

[Kuzu]

Here I think we have a disagreement regarding how the emeralds operate. I don't believe the emeralds simply "contain" positive and negative power, as if Super Sonic is just siphoning off the positive energy stored in them, and could potentially suck up some of the negative energy too. The way I see it, when the emeralds are being used, they produce power, based off the user's emotions. And you're not going to get much/any negative energy when Sonic's using them, because he doesn't really have a dark side that would produce it.

I always thought the positive and negative energies were dependent on the user's thoughts, and continued until they were purified, I mean it was said Chaos was still massively pissed off even after being sealed and the source of his aggression being long dead.

I don't think anyone is saying that Sonic has no negative emotions at all, but that he doesn't have any particular "dark side". No hidden trauma, no thoughts he'd dare not speak aloud, no real dysfunction that he would need to overcome.

I wouldn't mind Sonic being presented as a more rounded character, but I don't think there's a whole lot to actually explore in it. I mean, what would you have them do with it?

It could be parts of his personality that usually aren't present, but are implied; I mean we know Sonic is generally an adrenaline junkie whose always looking for the next big adventure usually leaving his friends behind to doing so, so maybe you use this opportunity to explore how Sonic doesn't truly care about being a hero, but more about the excitement that comes with it and anything boring or slow is a waste of time to him and have him overcome this part of his personality and accept it. Or something like that, this is just off the top of my head.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don't think anyone is saying that Sonic has no negative emotions at all, but that he doesn't have any particular "dark side". No hidden trauma, no thoughts he'd dare not speak aloud, no real dysfunction that he would need to overcome.

I wouldn't mind Sonic being presented as a more rounded character, but I don't think there's a whole lot to actually explore in it. I mean, what would you have them do with it?

We could make Sonic's actions carry more risks that he would have to deal with if he carries them out, for one.

Edited August 26, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Phos]

Because it would suddenly and hugely contradict the way Super Sonic has been portrayed in the past? As a form that has never been shown to exhibit anything other than Sonic's normal mannerisms and as a form that is not ever hinted to be a separate entity?

Never did like Fleetway Super Sonic. I suppose it's cool that it led to some very interesting stories but I don't think introducing such a concept in the games would do Sonic any favours.

Anyways, I've frequently felt that Super Sonic's abilities are far too limited. You'd think he'd have more abilities than just dashing or imbuing energy into something else (Sadv3) or deflecting projectiles (Sonic Rush and SRA) for such a supposedly powerful form. What struck me as a little weird is how this form is stated to take a heck of a toll on Sonic's body and energy reserves (SONIC CHANNEL profile, Sonic Unleashed) yet doesn't do a whole lot that could be construed as being varied regarding abilities.

Also, always hated how he frequently ruins the soundtrack when he's activated.

Still, he's an awesome and iconic form. And it is pretty cool playing as him despite the fact that he's frequently broken.

I was looking at your Avatar and it kind of looks like someone caught Sonic picking his nose.

The Fleetway Super Sonic is kinda dumb, really. I dunno where the taking a toll deal comes from. Seems kinda weird.

I think a lot of why people haven't been liking Super Sonic much recently has something to do with playing as him being terrible.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think a lot of why people haven't been liking Super Sonic much recently has something to do with playing as him being terrible.

That and he's predictable as hell.

[Phos]

That and he's predictable as hell.

In what way? Plot wise, I guess, but that could be avoided by putting that under control of the player via special stages, Super Sonic only shows up if you get the chaos emeralds. Gameplay wise, it's pretty predictable that you'll be moving around in a giant open space getting hit all the time for some reason.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

In what way? Plot wise, I guess, but that could be avoided by putting that under control of the player via special stages, Super Sonic only shows up if you get the chaos emeralds. Gameplay wise, it's pretty predictable that you'll be moving around in a giant open space getting hit all the time for some reason.

Either way you want to go with it, it's predictable. It's predictable in the plot, it's predictable in the gameplay, it's predictable in the game series in general so much that for Sonic to not go Super is more of shock.

[SilJeff]

Super Sonic being reduced to plot device only (along with the chaos emeralds) is really my only major beef with the Adventures. (and Big the Cat but thats a different topic).

I was glad to see sonic colors put super sonic in its rightful place as being playable in the stages and not be the finale gimmick.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Mr.Snarf

[Pawn]

I did enjoy the Fleetway Super Sonic, but I don't think it would work with the main series. The Chaos Emeralds in the game universe have simply been established as power sources for all kinds of abilities that depend on the intention of the user. Meanwhile Fleetway took the name 'Chaos' quite literally, leading the emeralds to cause more problems than provide solutions.

Perhaps if the Chaos Emeralds themselves were corrupted, Super Sonic going rogue would be a likely consequence. However I can't see Sega ever agreeing to portray Sonic as bad in any sense. Sonic would have to separate from Super pretty soon after the transformation, to make it viable, to ensure that the audience doesn't believe that Sonic himself has actually turned.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Lungo

[Emmett L. Brown]

Isn't it interesting that the game that's praised for finally letting us use Super Sonic in 3D levels is also the game that's praised for NOT having a Super Sonic final boss fight?

I think there's a seperation between being sick of Super Sonic as a game-wide power-up, and being sick of being forced to use Super Sonic.

I'm happy to have Super Sonic as an option; a reward for beating all the special stages or some other challenge. I'm just sick of being forced to use that form after spending the entire game mastering the controls and skills of regular Sonic. Say what you like about the game, but I have to give Sonic 4 episode II props for putting Super Sonic back as an optional in every level, including bosses (although having to revert to normal in order to progress through certain boss fights put a bit of a hamper on it, it still cunts).

[Kuzu]

Why do people act like the Super fights are a completely different genre of gameplay? I mean most of the complaints I see are having to master last minute controls after learning the whole game.......but those controls usually are just "Press B to Boost forward" I think the only game where I can say playing as Super was a problem was Sonic Adventure 2, and even then it's that hard.

[WarioBone]

Why do people act like the Super fights are a completely different genre of gameplay? I mean most of the complaints I see are having to master last minute controls after learning the whole game.......but those controls usually are just "Press B to Boost forward" I think the only game where I can say playing as Super was a problem was Sonic Adventure 2, and even then it's that hard.

I really hate to ask, but what was Sonic Advance 2's SS boss like? It was ASS to get all of those rings with EVERYBODY and I can't watch videos on this computer.

[Diogenes]

Why do people act like the Super fights are a completely different genre of gameplay?

Well, they may not be an entirely different genre, but they sure as hell don't play like the rest of the game.

Personally I don't find them to be particularly hard, but it's kind of crappy design to throw an irrelevant challenge at the player for the final boss.

[Kuzu]

Well, they may not be an entirely different genre, but they sure as hell don't play like the rest of the game.

Personally I don't find them to be particularly hard, but it's kind of crappy design to throw an irrelevant challenge at the player for the final boss.

I never really minded it, as it was only in that instance and it wasn't particularly hard. I could understand if is badly designed(and sometimes it is), but I don't it's something that would drag the game down.

[TheOcelot]

Why do people act like the Super fights are a completely different genre of gameplay? I mean most of the complaints I see are having to master last minute controls after learning the whole game.......but those controls usually are just "Press B to Boost forward" I think the only game where I can say playing as Super was a problem was Sonic Adventure 2, and even then it's that hard.

Yes I agree.

It is only the two 2d games where you really feel the diference in the gamplay as Super Sonic (IMO). Your obviously faster and more poweful in games like Sonic 2 and Sonic 4 so it makes a big difference to the gameplay.

When you play the final boss in Heroes the controls were slightly different, but there is no feeling of 'oh wow this is Super Sonic'. It was just a mediocra boss. Another example: When I completed SA1 for the first time last week, you play as Super Sonic in the final boss, but I didn't feel anything like 'wow this is so different, he's so fast it's amazing'. It just felt like part of the normal gamplay.

So I really don't care for Super Sonic in the 3d modern games, whereas in the 2d games I welcome Super Sonic.

Edited August 26, 2012 by MilesKnightwing

[Kuzu]

I really hate to ask, but what was Sonic Advance 2's SS boss like? It was ASS to get all of those rings with EVERYBODY and I can't watch videos on this computer.

You'd boost by pressing the A or B button, and you can boost in any direction, but it's somewhat finicky if you go the wrong way.

[Diogenes]

I never really minded it, as it was only in that instance and it wasn't particularly hard. I could understand if is badly designed(and sometimes it is), but I don't it's something that would drag the game down.

Inserting some random minigame as a final boss is bad design.

[Kuzu]

Inserting some random minigame as a final boss is bad design.

In what sense? May as well say inserting any minigame in any game is bad design.

[WarioBone]

In what sense? May as well say inserting any minigame in any game is bad design.

I think, that, as long as the minigame caters to an actual gameplay element, like Zelda's shooting galleries, it's a fine inclusion.

In that sense, Super Sonic that plays like regular Sonic is the preferable option, if we absolutely HAVE to have him.

[Kuzu]

I think, that, as long as the minigame caters to an actual gameplay element, like Zelda's shooting galleries, it's a fine inclusion.

In that sense, Super Sonic that plays like regular Sonic is the preferable option, if we absolutely HAVE to have him.

But Super Sonic never played that differently from how he does normally, the most you do is hold down a button to attack which isn't exactly a terrible design.

[WarioBone]

But Super Sonic never played that differently from how he does normally, the most you do is hold down a button to attack which isn't exactly a terrible design.

Sonic Adventure 2 is quite a bit different. Unleashed HD's Super Sonic is basically NiGHTS (paraloop and everything).

Other than that, no, not usually.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Kind-Hearted Jerk

[Diogenes]

In what sense? May as well say inserting any minigame in any game is bad design.

It usually is! You couldn't count how many games have some annoying halfassed minigame shoved in where it doesn't belong. Wasting the final boss on one, when if anything it should be a test of all the skills you've been using throughout the game, is even worse than most.

[Semi-colon e]

It's not so much the control scheme, but getting used to how he moves. Until now you've never been able to fly like that.

Advance 2 plays like the other two Advance games and they tend to play a bit more like Doomsday aside from The Moon Zone in Advance 1, where the difference is you're on the ground and you can jump instead of just flying.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Semi-colon e