Zelda Topic

[Komodin]

Let's wise this thwead fwom its gwave, shall we? While I unfortunately got no new dirt on any upcoming games, I do have an idea on a discussion that could be interesting.

 

Lately, I've been pondering about a certain series-general ensemble darkhorse -- that is to say, Midna and the fanbase's reactions to her. While she is indeed loved by a good chunk of the fandom -- hence, her "ensemble darkhouse" status -- but some of her detractors decry her as being a "mary-sue," that she dominated the plot of Twilight Princess at the expense of the main three (Link, Zelda and Ganon, natch). While I think that they're exaggerating things a bit, I can't help but think that they're generally not exactly wrong on her role in the plot. She did take center stage on the story, to the point that Link, Zelda and Ganondorf ultimately felt kind of superfluous.

 

So, SSMBers... what are your thoughts on Midna? Do you like her? Hate her? Couldn't care less either way?

 

Heck, while we're at it, I guess we can also talk about the other helper characters. What do you think of them?

[Nepenthe]

Midna does dominate the plot to the detriment of the other characters' development. I felt no emotions towards Link, I felt that Zelda didn't even have a discernible personality, and due to the build-up of Zant and his role in usurping Midna, Ganondorf felt like an addition from the left field. There's certainly an argument to make against her significance in the plot, but I wouldn't call her a Mary Sue for it. At the very least, she is such an overbearing bitch in the beginning that I didn't get the impression of perfection or creator favoritism at the expense of writing. Granted, her being this stunningly beautiful princess doesn't help much in the end.

[Linkabel]

I for one didn't mind Midna. I don't think she is the best character to grace the series, but at the same time I don't think she was the worst. Though, out of all Link's companions, I think towards the end I actually cared a little bit for Midna than I did for the others.

 

Maybe because she had a little bit of personality (even though it wasn't the most original) and she was the center of the story. Probably the only companion that I was "whatever" about was Fi, but I liked how she went from very "rigid" to "rigid but somehow her travels with Link gave her a little bit of understanding of human emotions."

[Wraith]

Midna was, like, one of the few characters in that game I even gave a shit about. Not only was she the character with the most development and personality, but the plot revolved around her due to it. She was basically the main character. The story was so focused around her and Zant's conflict that Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf almost felt shoehorned in.

 

This wasn't that bad to me, but I can see why some wouldn't like the main characters of the series being sidelined.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Wraith

[Diogenes]

I've said several times that I don't like TP.

But, if they had removed/minimized Midna in favor of more L/Z/G, I would have liked it even less. She's one of the few things about the game that I like; she starts as this nasty little imp that circumstances force you to work with, but she ends up growing into a true ally and friend. Link, I don't feel he's particularly marginalized, especially not by Midna specifically; he doesn't really have a strong arc of his own, but I feel that's kind of typical in Zelda (might just be me tho'). Zelda and Ganondorf, well, the game is really just not their story, and I don't think that's a bad thing. I don't think every Zelda has to focus on the big 3 (and there are other games in the series that support that), and Midna's story was better than having another generic "G kidnaps Z so L kills G and saves Z" story. If they really did need to have them...well I'm not sure how I'd like it all to go down, but at least maybe they could've had just Ganon and not -dorf? Make him be more the monstrous godlike power that Zant worshiped and not "that guy from OoT".

Plus, y'know, Midna is the Twilight Princess. The game is about her.

[Gabz Girl]

Like Diogenes, I find that Midna is the best thing about Twilight Princess. She certainly has more character than most of Link's companions and has more personality compared to say, Fi. The game is centered around her though, so it's no surprise really.

 

I think that's my main problem with Twilight Princess. Midna had so much character development, but Link, Zelda and especially Ganondorf have barely any. Even Zant is a big letdown because at the end of the game, he's shoved away in favour of Ganon.

[DarkDefeater]

Back to the issue of soundtracks, since ZREO will be closing down soon, songs from the album twilight symphony are being released on youtube. It truly is amazing. ZREO's greatest accomplishment.

 

 

 

As for Midna, Twilight Princess was the first Zelda game I ever played, so naturally I love Midna. Looking in retrospect, yes, I can see how she overshadows other characters, but I find that does not stop her from being a character one can strongly connect with. The first time I saw the ending of the game, I almost cried...

 

 

 

I just recently did another playthrough of Twilight Princess. I love that game. During the swordlock with Ganondorf, I actually allowed myself to lose. I wish I had done it sooner. While losing the swordlock, the music changes and really gives a sense of impending doom.

 

I really enjoy the final battle. Yes, it's easy and Ganondorf and nearly every enemy in the game could use greater damage output, but if you don't constantly wait for Ganondorf to charge and attack him head on, it becomes a really enjoyable duel.

Edited April 11, 2013 by DarkDefeater

[Jeffhog]

SUMMER!?

 

 

LOOK AT 'IM

 

 

LOOK AT DAT GUY

 

THAT SMILE

 

JUST

 

HE'S JUST

 

 

this gaming industry is going to bleed my wallet dry this year

[Soniman]

Oh god if there was a higher quality version of that picture it would be my fucking avatar in a SECOND!

 

Did I mention that I'm looking forward to this fucking game? Because I totally am

[KHCast]

That's quite a Sonic smile you got there Link.

[Thirsty Pocket]

Really looking forward to the Wind Waker remake. Hope they add significant new content, though I won't be to broken up if they don't. Is it just me or does it look like they have improved the art since the last screenshot mock up ( assuming this reflects the look of the game and isn't just stock art ) ...it looks a bit less plastic to me... And they fixed his eyebrows not showing through his hair, which really bothered me in the old screens.

 

What im looking forward to more though is A Link to the Past 2. Despite Wind Waker being the first Zelda game I owned, I much prefer the older,  pre-ocarina games. ( Which makes it significantly hard for me to relate to most Zelda fans. ) Really hoping elements from modern Zelda don't bog down the pacing of the game, but I'll try to stay optimistic. 

[JaidynReiman]

Honestly my favorite games are A Link to the Past, Twilight Princess, and Skyward Sword. I still hate the graphics in Skyward Sword honestly (it can be colorful without the cel-shaded look, plus many aspects of it are really muddy looking, especially Link's model), but the gameplay is probably the best in the series. The plot disappointed me a bit, and many of the enemies look absolutely ridiculous. But overall I think it has some good gameplay. Unfortunately it appears that gameplay probably isn't coming back, which is a shame.

 

I still like Twilight Princess better than Skyward Sword regardless, though. And I like A Link to the Past even more. But despite LTTP STILL being my favorite game in the series, I'm not hyped for LTTP 2 because it doesn't really look like a sequel, it looks like a glorified remake. So far, anyway; that might change as more is revealed about it.

[JezMM]

I think for Wind Waker, the changes I'd make are:

 

- More save slots for convenient second-quest-ing, or at the very least a seperate set of saves for each user profile.

- More photo slots for the pictograph box.

- Cut-scene skip feature.

- Bring back sword swinging while running like in TP c'moooon.

- Instant compose shortcuts, like in Ocarina of Time 3D - when composing using these it goes straight to the cut-scene version of the composition, no doing it once in gameplay-vision then again in flowing cut-scene vision.

- Again, like in OoT 3D, virtual "I", "II" "III" etc touch screen slots for items near the ABXY buttons.

- Tingle Tuner gameplay applied to either Gamepad + Pro Controller play or 3DS connectivity.

- As in OoT 3D and Skyward Sword, Hint Movie System added.  An example of something that could use a hint movie I think is the final maze area, have a hint movie focus on Phantom Ganon's sword falling, with the camera panning ever so subtley to hint that its direction it falls is important.

 

 

Then, if such a thing is possible, I'd seperate these following changes into a seperate, optional "New Mode":

 

- Fire Mountain and Ice Ring Isle extended into longer, if not full dungeons.

- Tingle is completely optional.  Perhaps make finding the IN-Credible chart something you must do yourself in some new gameplay area.

- Instead of Triforce Charts, Triforce Shards are found directly in the mini-dungeons where you found Charts in the original game.

- In the Second Quest, increase the difficulty of the game, and perhaps add a bonus attack pattern to each boss, especially the final one.  This is a personal request on the basis that I hate when a remake adds gameplay to a game - and then once you've done that new gameplay it's the same for the rest of the playthrough.  I like the idea of the final bit of gameplay being something new to look forward to the whole time.

 

 

Finally, beating the game on EITHER original or new mode lets you customise new mode.  So, for example, if like me you had no qualms with the Triforce Chart hunting and enjoy exploring the ocean as part of the mandatory story gameplay, you can still play the new dungeons without any other "fixes" to stuff criticised in the original.

 

 

 

 

All these ideas range from realistic to "no way they'll do that" but I'm bored and felt like brainstorming with myself lol.

[Patticus]

There's already a fiery dungeon on Dragonroost Island, but the ice island could really use a dungeon.

 

It would sure be nice if they could liven up that Triforce quest some, though. They could add a single bonus dungeon, split it into a dozen mini dungeons across the sea (two or three rooms apiece), and hide each bit in each one, or something.

[Speederino]

One thing I hope they change in the Wind Waker remake: give the player an actual reward for going through the figurine collecta-thon sidequest. That, to me, is one of the biggest examples of pointless bullcrap in a gaming history. So give us something truly amazing for our hard efforts!

 

...Admittedly I have no idea what, though.

 

Well at least let us hold more than three pictures at a time. 

[JezMM]

There's already a fiery dungeon on Dragonroost Island, but the ice island could really use a dungeon.

 

In my mind I imagine it having something wildly different inside.  Not sure what but yeah.  We'd still go through the volcano, but the dungeon entrance would be where the chest is.  You get the Power Bracelet so... I guess it could be rock themed?

 

Dunno what trope they could do though... can't be anything TOO abstract or else it'd overshadow the Earth and Wind Temples being rather unique in terms of the rest of the game's pretty standard fire/forest/water themes.

 

 

The tricky thing mind you would be if they added extra dungeons at those points, they either make them generic dungeons that use the fire/ice arrows more to REACH the treasure, which of course would be behind a boss fight, or they give you the treasure halfway through in traditional dungeon style... but then would need something to justify why you finish the dungeon instead of just leaving and going to Earth/Wind Temple entrance.  Maybe they contain a missing fragment of the stone artifacts with the songs on that awaken Medli and Fado.  But THEN of course they'd need to at least slightly justify why these fragments were missing, etc etc...

 

 

One thing I hope they change in the Wind Waker remake: give the player an actual reward for going through the figurine collecta-thon sidequest. That, to me, is one of the biggest examples of pointless bullcrap in a gaming history. So give us something truly amazing for our hard efforts!

 

...Admittedly I have no idea what, though.

 

Well at least let us hold more than three pictures at a time. 

 

Tricky thing here is it needs to be a reward good enough to justify all the effort it takes, but not so good that a lot of effort goes into a reward probably 1% of the player-base will see, if even that.

Edited May 30, 2013 by JezMM

[Speederino]

Tricky thing here is it needs to be a reward good enough to justify all the effort it takes, but not so good that a lot of effort goes into a reward probably 1% of the player-base will see, if even that.

 

True. It would need to be good enough to even PERSUADE more than 1% of the player-base to go through with the quest. Maybe you could unlock something like...Wind Waker Master Quest?  /completely unrealistic and wishful thinking

[Patticus]

Crazy wild impossible idea to make a "TWW Master Quest" better: They could link the fire isle and ice isle dungeons beneath the sea; go in one end and come out the other, so you've got a fire/ice thing going on. That gives you a much more explosive dungeon, and given the temperature extremes to which it'd be subjected (assuming I know how this shit works), it'd probably end up creating some really heavy winds, necessitating the iron boots. So you go in the ice end, it's all sparkly and icy, but really windy too. A quarter of the way in you get the boots, half way through you get the fire/ice arrows. Maybe you need to melt walls of ice with dem arrows to get into rooms, while you need to 'extend' ice walls/bridges with the ice arrows to navigate others. And maybe sometimes when you melt away a wall of ice, it splodes, letting some lava pour through into the melt water, which hardens it, giving you some middle grounds with general water temple type puzzles too.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Patticus
Made my idea more kickass :D

[JezMM]

True. It would need to be good enough to even PERSUADE more than 1% of the player-base to go through with the quest. Maybe you could unlock something like...Wind Waker Master Quest?  /completely unrealistic and wishful thinking

 

Yeah haha I think that would be WAY too big a reward for such a uniquely seperate kind of gameplay from regular playing.

 

Remember as well that the real point of gameplay is to be fun as it is.  It's bad design when you are playing something JUST for a reward, not because it's fun in itself.  I honestly do not care for the Pictograph quest and would HATE if a huge portion of fun gameplay was locked behind it.

 

Crazy wild impossible idea: They could link the fire and ice dungeons beneath the sea; go in one end and come out the other, so you've got a fire/ice thing going on. That gives you a much more explosive dungeon, and given the temperature extremes to which it'd be subjected (assuming I know how this shit works), it'd probably end up creating some really heavy winds, necessitating the iron boots. So you go in the ice end, it's all sparkly and icy, but really windy too. A quarter of the way in you get the boots, half way through you get the fire/ice arrows. Maybe you need to melt walls of ice to get into rooms, but that lets lava pour through and you get these middle grounds with general water temple type puzzles too.

 

This would be especially awesome if they retweaked it so you take the boat in with you and the dungeon is LITERALLY as big as the gap between these two islands, with the majority of distance coverage being done in underwater channels - possibly some created by you with that whole ice melting gimmick.  =D

[Patticus]

Well, there'd be plenty of disc space for a huge dungeon like that, but if I know games, the dungeon couldn't possibly literally be that big, it'd just feel it.

[JezMM]

Well, there'd be plenty of disc space for a huge dungeon like that, but if I know games, the dungeon couldn't possibly literally be that big, it'd just feel it.

 

Well when I say the majority of distance I'm literally talking like 95% of the distance haha.  I like the idea of having some more preset boat navigation gameplay, since I enjoy the barrel rupee collecting etc when travelling at sea, but obviously it's randomised and very simple.  I'd love something more testing, covering say an "acre"'s length of sea as an underground obstacle course, then some more dungeon-ish gameplay to get the next channel opened up, and then another "acre"s worth.  I think that's about the distance between the two islands, diagonally speaking.

Edited May 30, 2013 by JezMM

[Patticus]

It would be pretty neat to have Link, in the icy end of the dungeon, break a wall of ice damming up an empty old lava tube system, leading to a great boat (or ice slab ride a la TP?) ride in the ensuing flood. I just don't know how I would reconcile that with the ideas I already put forward, which have the two 'sides' of the dungeon smooshed all up against each other.

[PSI Wind]

So.......the Oracle games are out on the eShop. Already bought both of them. They'll be $5 or 5 in whatever currency you use until June 20th.

[-Robin-]

I intend to get the Oracle games, but I still have Link's Awakening to beat, lol.

$10 for both is not a bad deal though. I might get them tonight.

[Thirsty Pocket]

Picked up the Oracle games this morning, currently finished with the second dungeon of Seasons. It's the first time I've ever played them, which leaves Minish Cap as the only Zelda I don't have.

 

I'm absolutely loving all the Zelda 1 throwbacks.