Zelda Topic

[Patticus]

The era of the Industrial Revolution, from which the Steampunk style hails, was very often incredibly dirty and grimy. The working classes were filthy, the overcrowded urban landscape covered in soot and other pollutants given off by local industry. Add to this grim picture the view we today have of the period as being rather austere, with browns, greys, dull greens and other dull colors featuring heavily in the common folks' fashion pallet. Add on top of all this the fact that metals like iron, brass and copper were in heavy use during the period, and you've got a picture not dissimilar to the classic Steampunk image of dull golden cogs ticking away inside a new brass pocket watch, steam engines (sometimes painted rather nicely) powering mills, grim and dirty workers heading home down grey cobblestone streets toward their small, tightly packed homes...

 

It's just not a very colorful picture.

 

The countryside was obviously a great deal more colorful, as was life for the (sometimes newly enriched) upper classes who could comfortably isolate themselves from those beneath them, but I'm finding it hard to imagine a Steampunk Zelda game which can ignore the grimy realities of the era from which the style was plucked. That said, it's not necessarily a bad setting. For example, if a couple of small, tightly packed, dirty industrial villages/towns bursting with life could be nestled into a beautiful green landscape of ancient forests, rivers, farms, ruins etc, perhaps competing for space with them, we would have ourselves an intriguing juxtaposition. The old and the "new", side by side. Side plots could potentially include the Zora preparing for war to prevent a dam project from going ahead, mining endangering the Goron young, and the forest folk gearing up to become refugees as land clearances and logging force them away. There is superb potential for progress vs. preservation and man vs nature themes to come through in this setting.

 

As for the main villain, or bosses, I must admit to being initially stumped there. Most likely you'd have steam-powered inventions, transformed by an old dark magic from another age, controlled by something like the last pre-industrial dark magic wielder and his hordes of Steampunk-modified Moblins. A new Ganon figure could play this role; an antagonist to feature in several games. Something like that.

 

 

Of course, I doubt Nintendo will stray much further than the trains of Spirit Tracks.

[VO.SUPER]

This is my fault for not explaining it very well, but when I say colorful, I don't necessarily mean the bright color, but more of a moody odd style of a color similar to the old tones of drawings from that era. Not necessarily the reality of the victorian era, but rather the fantasy of it at the time as the world was embracing the feel of this new technology. After all Zelda is a fantasy. 

 

 

For all we know a Zelda game could take a magical apporach to crude steampunk technology and do something wild and out there with with. After all, Miyazaki has a way with giving those crude machines quite the life to them for all intents and purposes. 

 

 

And even then there are many other different approaches to what can be applied for this era. This was the time when the modern circus came into being; vaudville, and the political cartoon. Machines brought dirty streets and pollution, but they brought a fascination too along with them. 

 

I say that Zelda should be allowed to take it's own step outside of the box with steampunk technology if it ever does it. A very fantastical style that could take heavy inspiration not just from the machinary, but the myths that were birthed during the Victorian era. For starters, what happened to magictek? The idea of magic powering technoglogy, combined with the crudeness of steampunk designs to create a strange and fantastical take on the idea into different forays. And instead of the fantastical creatures from the old world being the ones to cry out against technology, have it so that they're joining in  on the times to help spur the correct usage of it. But the evil of the game isn't technology, it is the misuse of it from the bad guy/Ganon of the game and it's up to you to keep everything together in balance.  

 

I believe Zelda to be first and foremost a fantasy. And the thing is, ever era has a love for a particular fantasy, no matter how grimy and dirty the reality was. And the thing is; that reality has been all we seem to remember that era for when it is so much more. The dark crude world of steampunk has been pretty much the only aspect of the industrial revolution we've taken a shine to in our games and I would like Zelda to show another aspect. 

[JezMM]

I really like the idea of a multi-colour Steampunk town.  I could see a fantasy world where they're invented steam technology AND fluorescent paint why not.

[Candescence]

When I think 'steampunk', the first thing that comes to my mind is the fantastical, colourful madness of Girl Genius (which the authors prefer to call a 'gaslamp fantasy'), rather than the more dreary works that fall into the genre, probably because it's a roaring great read, even if much of it is patently absurd, though that's what happens when mad science is one of the core concepts, but the humor, world, characters and writing are all fantastic (the authors won three Hugo Awards and decided to pull out in the years after to give other webcomics a chance to actually compete). Parts of its aesthetic would certainly work for a Zelda title.

[-Robin-]

Made note of it yesterday, but didn't think to post it here:

Grezzo is hiring for a project planner and and programmer for their next project.

http://www.grezzo.co.jp/jp/recruit_kinkyu/

The tagline asks "Would you like to make a legend with us?"

Looking up Grezzo's game catalog reveals they made four games, two of which are OoT3D and Four Swords Anniversary Edition. Considering Aonuma's recognition of the fanbase's desire for MM3D, the game could be officially under development now.

Or it could be something different entirely. It's still pure assumption, but it's assumption with substance, I believe.

[Marcello]

Hm, I expected MM3D to be far in development right now. If they've already started and this is a straight up-port like OOT3D was, this could still be out before next E3, though.

 

Would be interesting if they made some new dungeons for a Master Quest mode, though.

[Solkia]

I think both grimdark and colorful work for Zelda.

 

Majora's Mask is dark as shit and loved by mostly everyone.

 

Wind Waker is also held in high regard and is colorful as hell.

 

I think both tones work well for Zelda, it doesn't hurt to take both approaches every now and then.

[SuperLink]

I don't expect MM3D to be out until next year earliest, I think Nintendo are aware that 3 Zeldas at once is a bit much. Hyrule Warriors this year, and Zelda U next year.. MM might not be out 'til 2016. Who knows. I have no doubt it's in development on some level though.

[Marcello]

I don't expect MM3D to be out until next year earliest, I think Nintendo are aware that 3 Zeldas at once is a bit much. Hyrule Warriors this year, and Zelda U next year.. MM might not be out 'til 2016. Who knows. I have no doubt it's in development on some level though.

OOT 3D and SS released in the same year, as did ALBW and WW HD, so Nintendo isn't opposed to releasing handheld and console games in the same year.  I seriously doubt it will be out later than next year.

[Solkia]

Speaking of MM, was the 3 day shit really necessary? You can reset the days once you get the right song, so it really has no purpose as a game mechanic.

[TrueBlue]

The 15th anniversary of MM is next year. Now I know Nintendo isn't always fussed about milestones, but it would make some sense.

[Marcello]

Speaking of MM, was the 3 day shit really necessary? You can reset the days once you get the right song, so it really has no purpose as a game mechanic.

It's pretty necessary for the side quests and it makes you have to manage items more than usual. Your whole progress resets when you go back in time, too.

[SuperLink]

Speaking of MM, was the 3 day shit really necessary? You can reset the days once you get the right song, so it really has no purpose as a game mechanic.

It's because of the 3 day system that the NPC schedules are so fascinating. Without the 3 Day system, there's no way that event flags would so drastically affect the NPC's mannerisms and further activities for the 3 Days. Once you think about the 3 Day sytem in terms of how the NPCs behave on each day, it makes far more sense.

 

So yes it was absolutely necessary, it wouldn't have been nearly as powerful a game without it.

[Solkia]

Meh, I just don't like being timed in games.

 

Pikmin I was able to do it because I knew ahead of time where everything was.

 

Guess I could look up a walkthrough or some shit.

[SuperLink]

It's really not that tough once you get the Ocarina and can use the Inverted Song of Time

[VO.SUPER]

I think both grimdark and colorful work for Zelda.

Majora's Mask is dark as shit and loved by mostly everyone.

Wind Waker is also held in high regard and is colorful as hell.

I think both tones work well for Zelda, it doesn't hurt to take both approaches every now and then.

Majora's Mask is very colourful too in it's own way. The swamp is both sickening with poison, but has strange flora with many popping colors. Zora hall is also lovely with it's bright blues, a stark contrast to the very dark ocean area.

MM focuses on colors and darkness, but it uses colors to weird you out and distort the area. Think of it like the world of Alice in Wonderland, a place that is strange and eccentric and full of life, but you can't exactly tell if it's threatening or not.

[JezMM]

Meh, I just don't like being timed in games.

 

Pikmin I was able to do it because I knew ahead of time where everything was.

 

Guess I could look up a walkthrough or some shit.

 

The idea with MM is you learn more about the character's schedules and world as you go through.  While the game doesn't overtly state it, there are a number of "checkpoints" that give you a sense of permanent progress in each area (though there are bonuses for doing an entire area in a single cycle.  So for example, a clear one in any of the 4 areas is once you have gained that area's ocarina song, you have gained access to the temple.  If you so wish, you can reset time to the 1st day and (with the inverted song of time) have around 2-3 hours to beat the dungeon.  However, often NPCs will have extra minigames or things to give you after beating the dungeon and have restored the area, and naturally if you travelled back in time they will not remember you from the stuff that you (now no longer) did before the temple, even though you have the result of it (the song etc).

 

The game doesn't hold your hand much though, but generally speaking, finding a key inventory item or gaining a song is usually a checkpoint which makes it safe to reset the clock if you want more time.

 

Another key thing regarding sidequests is if you replay the opening hide-and-seek game near the start as regular Link, you recieve a notebook - any time you talk to an NPC which has a sidequest, they're added to the notebook and you can see key points in time that they can be interacted with to solve a problem for them (many of which result in new masks), though not necessarily whether you need to do some other quest first for them to be relevant at this time etc.

 

 

Above all else though, while the game only let's you make a temporary save when you quit midway through a 3 day cycle, if you're the only player you can always copy your file whenever you make an owl statue save in order to use it as a backup should you majorly screw up and run out of time.

 

 

 

I'm not sure how I'd rebalance the save system to make it a little more fair.  We can assume the hint videos from OoT 3D will return, though a few additional overt hints from Tatl would be good, or something to signify for new players when it's safe to reset the clock and do a permanent save.

 

For example after leaving the Deku Palace with the song, Tatl pops up and is all "Hey... Even if we used the Song of Time, you'd still be able to remember that song you just learned wouldn't you?  If you want more time for the challenges ahead, you could use the Song of Time.  Of course, that'd mean the Monkey and the Deku King wouldn't remember meeting you even if you saved the Deku Princess, right?  It's up to you, Link!"  Of course her saying something like this EVERY time you got a key item or learned a song might get a bit too on the nose.

 

I'd love a new Master Quest mode too, or some kind of extra, new content that isn't just something lame like Wind Waker's Hero mode.

[Solkia]

Speaking of saving, that really bugged me. I didn't want to chase after those little shits at the beginning of the game so I went to save my game before I quit.

 

There was no option to save. At all. Every Zelda game I've played lets you save at any time you want, so why doesn't MM?

[JezMM]

It's a game where being able to save anywhere at any time would take all the pressure off timed events.

 

If you could save anywhere at any time, and it saved your exact location to the room, it could simply be used to retry a time pressured event with no penalty at all for messing up (when the idea is to do this specific thing at a specific time and if you mess up it causes a different chain of events to happen).

 

And if you could save anywhere but, like OoT, it didn't save your exact location, you could use that to cheat and travel back to the file load start point in literally no in-game time at all.

 

 

 

Granted, nowadays we have more memory at our disposal, and honestly I'm really thinking about it and I can't think of any reason why they shouldn't let us do temporary saves like the owl statues do from the pause menu, as long as it puts us back in the exact room we were in and remembers the current state of the map in terms of puzzle completion to every individual component.  Though I can think of a couple very specific moments where even that level of quicksave would need to be disabled (for example say, Sakon's Hideout).

[Solkia]

But on the downside, it means you have to get to specific points before you can save. This means that ifyou want to go to the menu and save and do something else, well fuck you, keep playing until you get to our shitty scripted save points.

 

IT's not just MM either, a shitload of modern games pull this crap too with that stupid rotating circle they put in the coner of the screen. Just give me a damn save button.

[SuperLink]

I imagine if MM was remade on 3DS it'd be given some kind of tweaked Suspend function, or perhaps the game's tutorial system would give heavy mention to sleep mode instead.

[JezMM]

Hoping for the former really.  While Sleep Mode is certainly going to be very useful for this game, on the flipside, if the save system is left unchanged, it is not a game you'd want to accidentally let the batteries die on.  Hours of progress can be lost by not saving properly, especially your first time through where you are exploring a lot and don't know exactly where to go yet.

 

 

When I think about it, not many time pressure events happen first thing in the morning.  It might not be totally unreasonable for the game to perma-save at the start of each new day.  Hmm.

[Solkia]

3DS carts don't use batteries. No modern game does.

 

The use an SRAM file written to the flash memory in the cart. Usually around 10,000 to 100,000 rewrites.

[Diogenes]

But on the downside, it means you have to get to specific points before you can save. This means that ifyou want to go to the menu and save and do something else, well fuck you, keep playing until you get to our shitty scripted save points.

It's still not the most convenient system, but aside from not being able to save at all in the first cycle, I don't think it's that big a deal. It's not that long in the game until you get the warp song, which takes you to the save points. Even if you're in a dungeon you just have to play it twice (once takes you to the entrance of the dungeon, then again to get to a statue...or just walk, since there's usually a save owl near the entrance anyway).

Though I'm glad we didn't get the save system from the Japanese version, which didn't even let you save at owl statues, only when you reset time...that would've been some serious bullshit.

[JezMM]

3DS carts don't use batteries. No modern game does.

 

The use an SRAM file written to the flash memory in the cart. Usually around 10,000 to 100,000 rewrites.

 

I meant the 3DS itself.  As in, if you use Sleep Mode to suspend your session for later, you really don't want to forget about the 3DS being asleep in your bag or something because if it runs out of battery and you lose your session without saving, you're back to Day 1 of the cycle - if the N64 save system is left unaltered.