Zelda Topic

[Salamander]

I haven't played Majora's Mask, and I have to say that not being able to save for long periods of time sounds incredibly obstructive.  If MM gets a remake, 3DS or otherwise, then I'm sure they'll include some kind of quicksave feature.

[JezMM]

I haven't played Majora's Mask, and I have to say that not being able to save for long periods of time sounds incredibly obstructive.  If MM gets a remake, 3DS or otherwise, then I'm sure they'll include some kind of quicksave feature.

 

There was a quicksave feature, you just had to go to statues to activate it.  No statue was ever more than a couple of minutes away though, especially if you used warp songs.  The game rarely demanded you play anymore than say, OoT does in terms of convenient saving.  Using the owl statues was not really any worse a burden than starting from the Temple of Time each session when you quit on the overworld.

 

 

The only part that confuses a lot of people is that you can't save for the first hour of gameplay - something they might fix in a remake, I don't really see any reason why they shouldn't let you use the single owl statue in clock town on your first cycle...

[Endy]

Speaking of MM, was the 3 day shit really necessary? You can reset the days once you get the right song, so it really has no purpose as a game mechanic.

 

The three day limit is the core mechanic of the game, the entire experience wouldn't be nearly as interesting without it. Nearly every single NPC has a daily schedule and most side quests require you to manipulate time to complete them. And Its also cool (but sad) to see how all of Termina reacts to its impending doom on the third day.

 

Its not that annoying when you get the reversed song of time anyways.

[Jolt_TH]

Im ashamed to say that I have never actually played MM, I tried once on an emulator but I didnt get far and my computer stopped working. I have always wanted to play so a remake would be so good! always a bit nervous about the time thing though, like If you don't complete the whole area in the three days is there some stuff you cant get? even if you reset once?

 

Also I don't know HOW it would work, but what if they included a mode like Hero mode (throw that in too) where you can play the game without the time limit as an unlockable after completing the game once? might give some players the chance to experience everything the game has to offer without the pressure of the time limit?

Sure they would have to put people on a three day loop anyway but leave it with just the people interactions rather than the moon thing.

 

Heck what if they did it like Pokemon DPP where the time goes in real time? and you can only get things at certain times of day, again I don;t know how that would work save wise, but ya know...cool idea

[Endy]

always a bit nervous about the time thing though, like If you don't complete the whole area in the three days is there some stuff you cant get? even if you reset once?

 

I don't think theres anything you can miss because of the time travel. However you do lose all your money all some of your item stock when you go back to day one. (I also think you're transported out of dungeons but I don't remember). But luckily theres a time-proof bank that saves up all your rupees.

 

They could include an easy mode where you don't lose your stuff when time traveling to make it easier for new players. Its an easy way for new players to get in without removing what makes Majora's Mask...Majora's Mask.

[Jolt_TH]

I don't think theres anything you can miss because of the time travel. However you do lose all your money all some of your item stock when you go back to day one. (I also think you're transported out of dungeons but I don't remember). But luckily theres a time-proof bank that saves up all your rupees.

 

Yeah I always knew WHY the bank was there, but I NEVER understood how it worked I mean Link isnt even a Terminian(?) so he shouldnt have a bank account

[JaidynReiman]

Yeah I always knew WHY the bank was there, but I NEVER understood how it worked I mean Link isnt even a Terminian(?) so he shouldnt have a bank account

For the bank, I think the banker supposedly draws something on Link to indicate his balance. He checks that and sees how much Link's balance is ever time. So in reality, Link is actually getting other people's money after time-traveling.

[JezMM]

An unlockable mode with no time limit would be completely non-sensical.  Trust me, there is more than enough time for general exploration in a 3-day cycle.  Nothing demands that you complete an area on every single cycle, you can just spend a whole cycle messing around if you want to.

 

 

If I had to suggest an idea for an easy mode... maybe make it so time freezes when you're inside a dungeon?  Or add a song that can freeze time inside dungeons if you so choose.

 

 

 

Oh, btw, in terms of what you lose when you go back in time, you lose any item which has a variable element to it.  I.e. You don't lose your bow, but you lose all the arrows you were carrying.  You lose any rupees you haven't stored in the bank, and your bottles are emptied.

 

You also lose some small, particular things - for example, Chateau Romani, the luxury milk drink, gives you infinite magic for the remainder of the 3 day cycle, but is lost when you go back in time.

[JaidynReiman]

An unlockable mode with no time limit would be completely non-sensical.  Trust me, there is more than enough time for general exploration in a 3-day cycle.  Nothing demands that you complete an area on every single cycle, you can just spend a whole cycle messing around if you want to.

 

 

If I had to suggest an idea for an easy mode... maybe make it so time freezes when you're inside a dungeon?  Or add a song that can freeze time inside dungeons if you so choose.

 

 

 

Oh, btw, in terms of what you lose when you go back in time, you lose any item which has a variable element to it.  I.e. You don't lose your bow, but you lose all the arrows you were carrying.  You lose any rupees you haven't stored in the bank, and your bottles are emptied.

 

You also lose some small, particular things - for example, Chateau Romani, the luxury milk drink, gives you infinite magic for the remainder of the 3 day cycle, but is lost when you go back in time.

Well, that goes under "you lose all items in bottles."

[Jolt_TH]

Oh I know that, it was just an idea for an extra unlockable mode, sorta like "congrats for beating the game, now here just go and mess around", youd still have to actually complete the game first.

 

I think I might give playing it another go, its the one 3D zelda I havent completed

[JezMM]

Well, that goes under "you lose all items in bottles."

 

Yeah but it's not an item in a bottle at that point, it's something that's physically affecting you.

 

Oh I know that, it was just an idea for an extra unlockable mode, sorta like "congrats for beating the game, now here just go and mess around", youd still have to actually complete the game first.

 

It just really really just wouldn't add anything though.  There is no activity in the game enthralling enough that you would want or need more than 72 in-game hours to do it really, even for just messing around, the reversed song of time gives you like 3 hours before you'd have to use the song of time.

 

 

 

 

Though if we're talking messing around... you know what would be a sweet 100% reward?  Fierce Diety Link anywhere.  I mean I'd barely use it but that's the kind of fanservice people would loooove and would be a cute throwback/acknowledgement of how the playerbase went crazy when it was found out you could do it with a glitch on certain N64 versions.

[VO.SUPER]

At E3 this year, I had the privilege to sit down with Eiji Aonuma and the development team for Hyrule Warriors. Having run Zelda Dungeon for nearly 13 years, this was the pinnacle of my journey. A chance to talk directly with producer of my favorite franchise. We got to talk about a wide range of topics including Hyrule Warriors, Zelda Wii U, and the development process of the Zelda series. I was joined in the interview by Ben Lamoreux, a senior editor from our sister websiteGenGAME. You can read the full interview after the jump.

 

Mases Hagopian: Shigeru Miyamoto is the father of the Zelda series but nowadays he seems to have stepped away from the series a little bit. Can you talk about his involvement with the series and in particular with the upcoming Zelda for the Wii U.

Eiji Aonuma: So with the new Wii U Zelda that we are working on, I work really closely with the director day to day on developing it and then we meet with Mr. Miyamoto once a month and present to him kind of where we are, and kind of what are next steps are. At that time we get his feedback, his thoughts on what we should do or what we should change. Just his feelings on how things are going. That process hasn’t changed.

----

Ben Lamoreux: We know that Zelda Wii U has been in development for some time and you’ve mentioned that you were close to showing it at a few past events but you couldn’t because you had other priorities. How long has it been in development for and what are some of the ideas and themes that formed the starting point for the games development?

Aonuma: During the digital event, I talked about how this was open world and we really wanted to provide fans of the series a new way of playing and experiencing the Zelda universe. In order for us to get it to a place where we can show something to the public, it just took a lot of time for us to develop the game because there is so much content that needed to be in place first.

What you saw in the digital event wasn’t cinematic. It was actually in-game footage. So you saw, when I was sitting there with the mountains in the back. If Link gets on his horse, he can actually travel to those distant mountains.

------

Mases: You mentioned Link. His character looks a bit different from what his character has looked like in the past. Is this the same character of Link that we’ve seen before?

(Room erupts in laughter)

Aonuma: When I say Link, it’s not one specific character. It is the protagonist in the Zelda game. Please understand.

------

Mases: So with A Link Between Worlds that came out, you aimed to change the conventions of Zelda a lot. Such as getting the items in different order, or playing the dungeons in a different order. Is this something we should expect to see carrying over in the upcoming Zelda game for the Wii U.

Aonuma: Yes (laughs)

------

Ben: Majora’s Mask has always been one of my favorite Zelda games and one of my favorite games overall. One of the things I liked so much about it is that more so than other Zelda game and a lot of games at the time, your actions can directly influence the events of the story and can change how the characters around you act. Can we see something like that return on a larger scale in Zelda Wii U or future Zelda titles?

Aonuma: The impact of the player character on the environment is something that has been, and really, having the player experience that impact, is something that is consistent through all versions of the Zelda games, but I want to continue to have the players experience that and even build upon that experience. In traditional Zelda games there is kind of an order in which you do things. You can’t do 3 until you do 1 and 2 for example. But with the new Zelda game, I really want to open the opportunities up for players to really make an impact on their environment and to give them a little more freedom to choose their path that the story takes.

I’d like to also talk about Hyrule Warriors.

-------------

Mases: Of course! Hyrule Warriors is sort of a spin-off, not part of the main series. Does it have any connection directly with the story with other games from the series?

Yosuke Hayachi: Even more than a spin-off, some might consider Majora’s Mask kind of a spin-off of the series. Hyrule Warriors to us, it doesn’t belong as part of the Zelda Timeline that most speak about. We consider it a celebration of the history of Zelda. What we’re trying to achieve is giving players an experience that is something that they’ve always wanted to do with the Zelda characters that they’ve come to know and love, and within that, also include a story as well.

--------------

Mases: I got to play the game. I got to play as Zelda and Link, but we also saw Midna and Impa. Is there any plan to perhaps introduce characters that are not part of the Zelda world. Perhaps something from the Dynasty Warriors games. A crossover character?

Hayachi: So in Hyrule Warriors, there is inevitably going to be a connection to the Legend of Zelda world. So because of that connection we have characters like Midna that appear, and Link, and Princess Zelda. As part of this world, there are also original characters that will be introduced soon. I’m hoping everybody is looking forward to seeing them.

---------------

Mases: I grew up playing the original Nintendo and the original Legend of Zelda. One of the things I enjoyed about the games in the late 80s and early 90s is that they were much more difficult than the more modern games. Even with Zelda nowadays, there is the hero mode for more advanced players during a second time through, but the first time through has been easier for veteran gamers like myself. The balance, is that something you think about while developing the games, and is it a hard medium to reach?

Aonuma: Yes, and I mean that by not specifically making enemies harder or easier to take down. As developers we certainly have to think about context in which people are playing and the lifestyle that most people live. I think now it’s harder for people to carve out large chunks of time to sit and play a game for hour-long stretches. I think we always think about the playability of a game, and when I say playability, I don’t mean the difficulty level necessarily, but just the amount of time they invest in one sitting, or how easy it is to pick up and then put down and then continue later. I’m always thinking about, again not specifically about difficulty, but also about making it possible for players to continue playing, given the demands of their day.

----------------

Hisashi Koinuma: As a developer of the Dynasty Warriors games, we certainly do take into consideration the different lifestyles that people have. That’s why we include things like difficulty settings so that there are certainly options for people who want to really get into the game and deep dive, and spend significant periods of time playing, but we also need an entry point that is more accessible to casual users. So when we developed the game we certainly tried to put those in place.

------

Ben: The trailer shown off for Zelda Wii U during the Nintendo digital event was very impressive and very intriguing, especially because there seemed to be a theme of technology with the monster with the mechanical arms and the lasers, and then the high-tech arrow at the end. What can you tell us about the theme or prevalence of technology in the upcoming Zelda?

Aonuma: It’s not as though this environment is more high tech than past Zeldas. If you remember, we’ve had statues in the past that had beams that shoot out of their eyes. The hookshot is something that is actually really really high tech. We probably couldn’t even make one now if we wanted to. So I wouldn’t say this new Zelda is going to take place in the more distant-future, or even the near-future for that matter. But one thing we have to do as developers, you might be thinking ‘but then you are not rethinking the conventions of Zelda’, but I am rethinking the conventions, and as a part of that, we have to continue to have these items evolve and change their presentation and make sure that it’s still new experience.

----------------

Mases: Two years ago you showed the tech-demo for Zelda. It had more of a Twilight Princess look and Hyrule Warriors has somewhat carried that same design. Twilight Princess though was one of the most traditional games, but it was also one of the most successful games. Does a games success, in terms of sales numbers, does that affect the type of Zelda game that you personally like to create?

Aonuma: I don’t look back. (Laughs)

I always want to create something unique, and the reason for that is not just because it makes for a more fun game experience once the game is completed, but as a creator it also makes things more interesting for my team and myself. Images and expressions and all of those things, in order to make those unique, we don’t start with a plan that is set in stone from the beginning, it’s definitely an evolution. We may have a basic concept in the beginning, but as we are working through those concepts, they are going to evolve, they are going to change. So that’s how that particular tech demo that you saw early on has evolved to what you saw in the trailer.

----

Mases: So Tingle… (laughs)… Can we see Tingle in Hyrule Warriors?

 

Hayachi: I really like Tingle. I’ve played all of the Tingle games.

 

Aonuma: Do you like Tingle?

 

Ben: Of course!

 

Mases: Yes! I played Freshly Picked Tingle’s… the one that was in English, but the others were only in Japanese.

 

Aonuma: I heard a lot recently that American’s don’t like Tingle.

 

Mases: They don’t. I’m the exception I guess.

 

(Room erupts in laughter)

 

Aonuma: (To Ben) – Do you not like Tingle?

 

Ben: Oh no I like Tingle, I think he’s great.

----

Ben: We know from the playable demo and the trailers that we’ve seen that there is going to be a lot of different items in Hyrule Warriors. We’ve seen the bombs and fire rod. Will we see any of the more legendary items from the Zelda mythos, like the Master Sword or Sacred arrows, or anything like that. Can we expect to see prominent items from Zelda lore in Hyrule Warriors?

Koinuma: Hyrule Warriors is a celebration of the Zelda franchise so we will definately see some of the more traditional items from the series.

-----

Mases: Hyrule Warriors is now just a few months away and I imagine things are wrapping up with the development. Are there ideas that you’ve come up with in which you’ve run out of time and cannot finish to put them into the game. Things that you might want to do sometime in the future, perhaps in a future collaboration?

Hayachi: Zelda has a long story, its got a long history. There is certainly many many things that we could have put into the game. As I’ve mentioned before, the team is full of Zelda fans that all have ideas of what should be included. I don’t have any specific instances, but I’m sure that among the team members there are great ideas that we couldn’t bring to fruition.

 

Aonuma: Early on, there was actually a version that had a dungeon in it that had more traditional Zelda like puzzle solving elements to it. After looking at that piece and that stage, and realizing that it was so far away from what a Dynasty Warriors game is, they decided to eliminate that.

 

Ben: Princess Zelda herself will be playable in this game. How was that decision reached and did fans influence the decision at all?

Hayachi: One of the main basic concepts of the Dynasty Warriors series is that you have a large roster of players to play as. The same is true with Hyrule Warriors. Initially our thoughts were that Link and Zelda had to be playable characters. From there, again, Zelda has such a long history, there are so many vibrant characters in the Zelda universe that we could have chosen from. So we took ideas from the team and we listened to opinions of fans. We definitely did our research. Another thing that we thought about was is which player would be fun to play as. You probably saw on the show floor, the roster. There are many many open spaces. Those will be filled in and we’re hoping that you are looking forward to see them. I think there will be some in there that you will be surprised.

 

Mases: Tingle!

(Room erupts in laughter again)

-----

Mases: Thank you for your time. We got through almost all of our questions. We had more to talk about Zelda Wii U, but I know you can’t talk too much about it.

Aonuma: Next year. (laughs)

Mases: Yes, next year.

 

 

 

Full Zelda Dungeon Interview: http://www.zeldadungeon.net/2014/06/zelda-dungeon-interviews-eiji-aonuma-and-the-hyrule-warriors-team/#disqus_thread

[Salamander]

Nintendo developers sure do laugh a lot.

[JayRaR]

People sure like bringing up Tingle too. :\ 

[JezMM]

So since both upcoming Zelda games have their own threads, this topic feels like this is a suitable enough place to talk about Egoraptor's new Sequelitis episode (since I don't think it deserves a topic in of itself and discussion will prolly spiral away into general ideas and opinions over direct response to Ego's stuff).

 

 

 

 

My thoughts:

 

The new sequelitis was interesting and I was impressed that I actually ended up agreeing with a lot of his points about OoT despite loathing ALTTP.

 

The main thing I don’t see eye to eye with Egoraptor on is that he seems to have no appreciation to the value of non-interactive elements in video games.  He needs everything to be “on” all the time.  It’d be like a… I dunno, a film score enthusiast who complains every time a movie has a scene with no music.  And when you say “this scene is stronger for not having music” he says “if they made the music RIGHT it wouldn’t be”.

 

For example, yes, his example of running across the broken bridge in the lava room in OoT’s Fire Temple is just “holding up”, but if it was over complex then it’d ruin the fact that this is supposed to be a room that you’re invited to explore in multiple directions more than one time - that room has five other rooms connected to it, you will be visiting it multiple times.  If it had a puzzle or combat element that had to be overcome every time you did it would get annoying.

 

I think there’s only so many things you can say “well if it wouldn’t work my way they should axe it entirely and do a different thing that would fit what I want”.

 

My other issue was namely that a lot of his criticisms he levelled at OoT could easily be applied to ALTTP too.  Like he complains that “finding a switch in a room isn’t a puzzle” and yet the room that made me ragequit ALTTP and never play it again was a room with about 20 blocks joined in an upside down U shape seemingly to protect me from a Beamos in the middle of them.  The solution?  Push one of those blocks to the left.  A specific one.  In a specific direction.  And it opened the door.  Even when I beat that puzzle I had long lost interest in playing further.  I was of the mindset of “well if it’s making me do this like 3-4 dungeons in, fuck the rest of the game it’ll prolly just get worse from here”.

I think as well when all these issues he mentions with OoT are compressed together into a 30 minute video they seem worse than they are.  Even if you dislike these elements, they’re VERY paced out in the actual game.  He also complains about the lack of full disclosure in 3D then complains about the cut-scenes that occur when you push a switch to show what it just did and give you that disclosure.

On the flipside though I really dig his comments about the waiting in OoT’s combat and how separated from the environment it is, and how the Iron Knuckles are the best fights in the game for not having that aspect.  I never thought about it before but he’s absolutely right.

 

But yeah, mainly I think his complete zero tolerance opinion of non-interactive game elements is something you can’t really argue against in the sense that… you either like them or you don’t.  And I don’t think just because Zelda started out as being 80% non-linear means it must do that forever or that going for a more focused experience automatically means it will never be as exciting as a less focused user-created experience.

 

Considering I love OoT and hate ALTTP - yet am loving ALBW from what I’ve played so far of it - makes me curious and excited to see if they can translate ALBW’s innovation in combining the sandbox and linear Zelda styles into the next 3D Zelda without losing the cinematic elements I love out of the more linear Zelda games.

[Sami]

The main thing I took away from that video, despite not agreeing with everything he said, is that Dark Souls fulfills almost all criteria he puts forth for a good 3D Zelda game.

 

That's something I can get behind.

[Soniman]

Eh, a lot of Egoraptor's complaints to me come down to the fact that he seems to want instant gratification for everything and hates any type of waiting and comes off as a very impatient gamer with no real love of build up or theming or anything like that. It may sound like an exaggeration, but when he starts complaining about things that last less then 3 seconds like door opening and Link being knocked back and getting up I can't help but feel that way.

 

And my own personal thing, a lot of his ragging on Skyward Sword just made me kinda roll my eyes, I can't really argue it since it's his opinon but I just thought it was kinda unneeded.

 

I dunno, I just...disagree with most of it unfortunately, though this is expected since it kinda happens a lot with me and Ego. I wont deny that he presents his arguments well and the video is nicley presented

[JezMM]

Mollfie actually brought up an interesting point that Ego has said that he has ADHD.  That doesn't in anyway make his opinion less valid or unjustified, but it does go hand in hand with his need to always be doing something, and explain why he didn't seem to be able to "grow up" when it came to his tastes in video games, always preferring the constant action of retro games.

[Red Cap]

And my own personal thing, a lot of his ragging on Skyward Sword just made me kinda roll my eyes, I can't really argue it since it's his opinon but I just thought it was kinda uneeded.

 

This. The sections where he ragged on SS and TP weren't even remotely funny, especially the part at 14:30. The video would've been way better if he just left those bits out.

 

Anyways, I can't say I agree with him much. I felt that the way OoT handled it's puzzles and story was fine and I can't even fathom why he was so bothered about the mini-cutscenes in the game. They only last a couple of seconds and they aren't that frequent in the actual game. I nearly lost it when he complained about being knocked down.

[JezMM]

I nearly lost it when he complained about being knocked down.

 

In his defense, there is a significant difference in how taking damage compares between 2D and 3D Zelda.

[Soniman]

In his defense, there is a significant difference in how taking damage compares between 2D and 3D Zelda.

 

Well if we're directly making comparisns to OoT only, taking damage for the most part is like how it works in 2D Zeldas (no notable physical reaction aside from blinking) I think it was only with BIG hits that Link was knocked back

[JezMM]

Yeah that's true actually.  Another example of the video bigging up problems by focusing on them individually rather considering the context in which they happen.

[Red Cap]

In his defense, there is a significant difference in how taking damage compares between 2D and 3D Zelda.

 

Well yeah, but what 3D game doesn't have knock down? 3D Mario games have it, Monster Hunter has it, Dark Souls has it... it's not bad game design and it's only really used for heavy attacks, like getting hit by Iron Knuckles or the various bosses.

[Sir Tynen]

First, I wanna say that I enjoyed this new Sequelitis, and several good points were brought up throughout the video. But there are something's that rubbed me the wrong way here.

 

My biggest gripe with this video was when he talked about the waiting. Okay, I get it, waiting for things can be a tedious process, but when it's seriously arguing about the opening of chests, doors, or getting knocked down, that just comes off as nitpicking. Heck, he didn't even use King Zora as example when he complained about this!

Another bugging moment was when he complained about the NPCs and how they don't matter. Well gee, it's great to know that having a bit of freaking context and characterization (something that Majora's Mask has been praised for to this day) in an adventure game is bad. And while Ocarina's NPCs aren't anything to write home about, it still gave a feeling of an inhabiting world within the game. 

Also, the rant on Skyward Sword, while having merit, was still kinda overblown. I get that he hates the game, but saying that people like it just because it has the name Zelda on it, is really not fair judgement towards the game.

 

The main thing I took away from that video, despite not agreeing with everything he said, is that Dark Souls fulfills almost all criteria he puts forth for a good 3D Zelda game.

 

That's something I can get behind.

 

Well that'd be you, Discoid, because Arin would probably be quite the opposite on that, since Dark Souls is a methodical game that requires patience in pretty much every aspect of it, something that he does not posses.

[Captain Fun]

Also, the rant on Skyward Sword, while having merit, was still kinda overblown. I get that he hates the game, but saying that people like it just because it has the name Zelda on it, is really not fair judgement towards the game.

Yep, it's almost like saying people will just lap this video up because it has the name Sequelitis on it. 

 

Video made me cringe, but some of the stuff in it was sorta funny. Maybe I'm biased against it because I've seen Arin reach DarkSydePhil levels of shitness-at-games.