Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Gates to Infinity (Nintendo 3DS)

[Cola]

That better not be true. I want to be Charmander, dammit. >=|

I mean possible choices as in they aren't all of them

I probably should've worded it better :V

Edited September 14, 2012 by Cola

[-blank-]

*reads back*

Oh, okay, I see now. My bad.

[Salamander]

Doubtful, since the last Pokemon Mystery Dungeon was 3D as well. It was Japan exclusive though (Wiiware service).

[The Kid]

I seriously doubt the next Pokemon main title would be in full 3D. Just because we get a 3D spin off title (see: Snap, Coliseum, Rumble, Pokepark, Mystery Dungeon, etc.) doesn't mean they'd go retooling the main games next. They seem to really want to keep the main games in the style they've always been. I mean GameFreak refuses to even bring the main games to consoles (they know full well they'd have to make the game in 3D if they brought it to the Wii), trying to keep that compact, portable feel for Pokemon. Yet spin-off titles have no problem heading to consoles or being in 3D.

It is certainly possible, but it just doesn't feel... right. I don't know how to put it exactly.

[Sonictrainer]

Here's a trailer:

Edited September 15, 2012 by Son1ctrainer

[Thigolf]

That looks so AMAZING. I love those graphics, the gameplay of course, and because of those new graphics, the cutscenes seem much more dynamic and stuff

[Autosaver]

This looks awesome to you guys?

So far, it looks like the same old games with new graphics. Those same old games were trashed by the community and critics alike. I played Blue, and played a bit of Sky, and the game itself does get very repetitive. The AI will most likely be retarded (again) with little to no gameplay additions besides "Press A or B".

The series needs to revamp the gameplay. Why are we walking in straight lines through linear caves? Why not add in another move and re-innovate the series? You could easily have a 3D platformer dungeon game if they tried. Imagine crawling through open dungeons with many secrets, areas, exits, etc. Vertical and Horizontal exploration could be possible.

But seriously, the Dungeon games really aren't known for their quality. I guess it has some fans, but they really need to put more effort into the core gameplay to get people to play.

[Blacklightning]

Repetition? Virtually no gameplay changes? Same thing with slightly prettier graphics? You say that almost as if to imply those aren't traits already intrinsic to the Pokemon franchise to begin with.

Pokemon fans are wierd.

You could easily have a 3D platformer dungeon game if they tried. Imagine crawling through open dungeons with many secrets, areas, exits, etc. Vertical and Horizontal exploration could be possible.

In a randomly generated environment? Good fucking luck with that. It's hard enough already to efficiently make an environment that doesn't consist entirely of rooms and corridors - throwing in a z axis, adding platforming to the mix (really, platforming? In a fucking rougelike?) and still ensuring there's a concise, reachable and understandable way to complete objectives every time would be nothing short of a nightmare to program.

[Mega]

...The dungeon games are actually pretty popular, but mostly for their stories, which by far surpass the main games in every single way, if you ask me. Seriously, the story in Sky was excellently crafted, and I really had no qualms with the gameplay either.

So... yeah. I don't really see a problem here. :|a

[Jetronic]

Here's a trailer:

*

So according to this...fun stuff happens when you use this game with the 3DS camera and a soda can.......

more please

Edited September 15, 2012 by Jetronic

[Cola]

Here's a trailer:

And here is some music:

Also looking at the trailer apparently those are the only 5 your partner can be, unless they dropped the quiz. dear god i hope not

Edited September 15, 2012 by Cola

[Xenos]

They might be hiding a lot of info about it..God I hope so. No Totodile and Pikachu combo and I'm a sad, sad person...

But I do like how the game is 3D, and they aren't using those fucking toy Rumble models not-so great models from Rumble.

What I'm worried about is the story, it's going to be totally new this time so I hope they can make it as good as previous ones.

[buba]

They might be hiding a lot of info about it..God I hope so. No Totodile and Pikachu combo and I'm a sad, sad person...

But I do like how the game is 3D, and they aren't using those fucking toy Rumble models not-so great models from Rumble.

What I'm worried about is the story, it's going to be totally new this time so I hope they can make it as good as previous ones.

I bet the story will be good, but will it be better or in the same level as explorers of time/darkness/sky? The ending in those ones really bought a tear to my eye and that is really hard to do.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Tmsp

[-blank-]

I agree, it's going to be quite hard to top Time/Darkness/Sky in terms of story.

[Thigolf]

Time/Darkness/Sky made me cry. >__< That rarely ever happens, I often just feel sad, but a Pokemon game did it. A pokemon game made my cry.

And I hope there will be more Pokemon to select from. I mean, I really like Oshawott, but still... Just for a bit more variety. And please leave the quiz.

[Autosaver]

Repetition? Virtually no gameplay changes? Same thing with slightly prettier graphics? You say that almost as if to imply those aren't traits already intrinsic to the Pokemon franchise to begin with.

Pokemon fans are wierd.

Pokemon doesn't really consist of walking through tiny corridors and mashing two moves over and over again. A lot of strategy goes toward Pokemon battles. Pokemon is very complex and has had major gameplay changes through the series. The introduction of IVs/EVs/etc changed the game quite a bit. Double Battles, Triple Battles, and Rotation Battles even added further to the chaos. Games like Pokemon Black & White do the whole "Repetitive Gameplay" idea much much better. BTW, there ARE complaints about the reptitve nature of B/W to an extent! Anyways, there is a reason why the gameplay in B/W is praised while the Dungeon games are pushed aside.

Really, why are we even comparing the main series with the Dungeon games? At least the main series have tried changing the core gameplay and adding new mechanics with each game. There are even tournaments dedicated to finding the perfect balance on your Pokemon and using the right items. I guess the right word should be that B/W aren't shallow, unlike the Dungeon games. What we should be comparing the games to other superior dungeon crawlers.

It isn't just a problem with the game either, it is a problem with the aging formula. Why aren't games like the old Final Fantasy games as tolerable as Xenoblade Chronicles? The reason is because Xenoblade Chronicles evolves the formula. It completely ditches the classic turn based moves and replaces it with a fun innovative system with huge exploration. It also removes mechanics like losing your items, finding out where to go, side quests that require you to go back and forth, etc. Does Mystery Dungeon still have the "GO UP 99 FLOORS, RESTART WHEN YOU DIE!!" quests? Same with the money, does it still make you lose a ton of crap when you die?

In a randomly generated environment? Good fucking luck with that. It's hard enough already to efficiently make an environment that doesn't consist entirely of rooms and corridors - throwing in a z axis, adding platforming to the mix (really, platforming? In a fucking rougelike?) and still ensuring there's a concise, reachable and understandable way to complete objectives every time would be nothing short of a nightmare to program.

Again, innovate the series. I don't mean take the same formula and add 3D, I mean greatly expanding the game so that it fits in with 3D atmosphere. I also don't mean platforming as in Sonic, I meant platforming elements. See those two rocks? Jump on them to get across, etc (OK, you don't have to add in platforming!). These are just some ideas that could push the series into new territory. What if the developers managed to set a new standard for dungeon crawlers? What if it wasn't the same old formula that we've had for decades? Xenoblade Chronicles tried something new, and succeeded. I'm not a game developer, and I don't have time to think of a clear thought out way to expand the series. Can the developers at the Dungeon team think of something? I'm sure they could. Dungeon 4 is simply a retread of Blue, Sky, Wii, and previous games that used the formula. Think of something new that could put the Dungeon games on a holy grail.

Diablo to TorchLight. Did the developers use the same formula from Diablo? Yes, and No. They completely innovated the genre with many new mechanics made for today's gamers. Both games were praised for what they did with the genre, and both are still well known for what they did with the gameplay formula. TorchLight II is getting a sequel with so many new features. Multiplayer support? I understand that the Dungeon games could be a mess if they added multiplayer, but could you imagine if they beefed up the formula that would support gorgeous environments and 4 players over Nintendo Network. Man, I'd love to be able to play as Chikorita while my friend plays as Snivy.

I understand that the stories of the games are great. That is completely understandable as I loved the story when I played them. I had the same effect of the game getting emotional inside. You really didn't want the game to end, and it is amazing that games can bring this feeling for once. But can the gameplay still evolve with the story remaining the same? It doesn't have to be up on one side and down on the other. Wouldn't you kill for a game that happens to be the "Mario Galaxy" of the dungeon series? I don't know, I just think the series should get with the times and use more modern formulas and ditch the old formula. Or at least, improve the series that it can be placed as one of the best dungeon crawlers ever created.

It kind of reminds me of New Super Mario Brothers 2. Is the formula fine? Yes. Are the levels varied and colorful? Yes. So what is the problem? Well, it uses the same formula as the past 2 games and doesn't bother to be innovative. I know we all play for the gameplay (STILL GREAT!), but can't Nintendo try something new? People always bring up Rayman Origins/Legends and talk about how the series does so much more than Mario. At least NSMB U is trying, right?

Edited September 15, 2012 by Autosaver

[Thigolf]

Pokemon doesn't really consist of walking through tiny corridors and mashing two moves over and over again. A lot of strategy goes toward Pokemon battles. Pokemon is very complex and has had major gameplay changes through the series. The introduction of IVs/EVs/etc changed the game quite a bit. Double Battles, Triple Battles, and Rotation Battles even added further to the chaos. Games like Pokemon Black & White do the whole "Repetitive Gameplay" idea much much better. BTW, there ARE complaints about the reptitve nature of B/W to an extent! Anyways, there is a reason why the gameplay in B/W is praised while the Dungeon games are pushed aside.

Really, I wouldn't call all those changes (besides maybe rotation battles) "major" gameplay changes. Yes, double battles mixed things up quite a bit, but I wouldn't it call it "major". It's the same thing like single battles, you just use more attacks that aid your partner (and even that, I see rarely happening), but that's it, nothing to "wow" about. Triple battles are the same shit as double battles, just with more pokemon, and they are used... twice in Pokemon Black/white? Oh, and the EV crap is the stupidest thing they've added in the series.

Really, why are we even comparing the main series with the Dungeon games? At least the main series have tried changing the core gameplay and adding new mechanics with each game. There are even tournaments dedicated to finding the perfect balance on your Pokemon and using the right items. I guess the right word should be that B/W aren't shallow, unlike the Dungeon games. What we should be comparing the games to other superior dungeon crawlers.

Changing the core gameplay? When? Going from town to town, beating up trainers and Team "insert name here", collecting all the badges... It's always been like this and there was never something that made the games feel different or new. Even if they tried, I don't think they succeeded.

Also, you sound like it isn't important to choose the right amount of Pokemon, the right types, with the right items and attacks, to get through a 99 floor dungeon. Granted, there isn't a tournament for finding the perfect balance, but the 99 floor dungeons alone are enough proof you need to know "Yes, I made the right choice"

It isn't just a problem with the game either, it is a problem with the aging formula. Why aren't games like the old Final Fantasy games as tolerable as Xenoblade Chronicles? The reason is because Xenoblade Chronicles evolves the formula. It completely ditches the classic turn based moves and replaces it with a fun innovative system with huge exploration. It also removes mechanics like losing your items, finding out where to go, side quests that require you to go back and forth, etc. Does Mystery Dungeon still have the "GO UP 99 FLOORS, RESTART WHEN YOU DIE!!" quests? Same with the money, does it still make you lose a ton of crap when you die?

I don't see a problem with losing half your stuff when you die.

Again, innovate the series. I don't mean take the same formula and add 3D, I mean greatly expanding the game so that it fits in with 3D atmosphere. I also don't mean platforming as in Sonic, I meant platforming elements. See those two rocks? Jump on them to get across, etc (OK, you don't have to add in platforming!). These are just some ideas that could push the series into new territory. What if the developers managed to set a new standard for dungeon crawlers? What if it wasn't the same old formula that we've had for decades? Xenoblade Chronicles tried something new, and succeeded. I'm not a game developer, and I don't have time to think of a clear thought out way to expand the series. Can the developers at the Dungeon team think of something? I'm sure they could. Dungeon 4 is simply a retread of Blue, Sky, Wii, and previous games that used the formula. Think of something new that could put the Dungeon games on a holy grail.

I don't see how "Jumping over 2 rocks" is a great, new innovation. But I see your point: I wouldn't mind innovation but at the same time, I'm not tired of the Mystery Dungeon games yet and I wouldn't mind if they keep them the same. I really don't wanna sound like I'm stubborn, but seriously, I can't think of things that would truly evolve the series, an would still make you feel like you're playing a Mystery Dungeon game, you know? Right now, I'm just happy the moved away from the sprite style and use a proper style to make the cutscnes more impressive and stuff, and if that's all the things they change... it's actually fine with me.

I understand that the stories of the games are great. That is completely understandable as I loved the story when I played them. I had the same effect of the game getting emotional inside. You really didn't want the game to end, and it is amazing that games can bring this feeling for once. But can the gameplay still evolve with the story remaining the same? It doesn't have to be up on one side and down on the other. Wouldn't you kill for a game that happens to be the "Mario Galaxy" of the dungeon series? I don't know, I just think the series should get with the times and use more modern formulas and ditch the old formula. Or at least, improve the series that it can be placed as one of the best dungeon crawlers ever created.

Like I said, I'd love that, but I can't think of any gimmicks that would really innovate the series and bring something new to the table. Maybe you got an idea?

It kind of reminds me of New Super Mario Brothers 2. Is the formula fine? Yes. Are the levels varied and colorful? Yes. So what is the problem? Well, it uses the same formula as the past 2 games and doesn't bother to be innovative. I know we all play for the gameplay (STILL GREAT!), but can't Nintendo try something new? People always bring up Rayman Origins/Legends and talk about how the series does so much more than Mario. At least NSMB U is trying, right?

Well, PMD 3DS is at least trying in the graphical department, I expected them to use the sprites once again. And what if they do something new? I mean, right now, we only got a little trailer, and yes, it looks like it's the same stuff all over again, but maybe they'll reveal something new later on? I wouldn't mind it.

[Candescence]

Shallow?

Are you fucking kidding me?

Yes, the main-series battle system has improved over multiple games, but it's still a turn-based affair with four attacks and items. The games boil down to going to places and fighting dudes, and solving some basic puzzles along the way. That's about it!

Mystery Dungeon applies the basic battle system to a grid-based map, dungeon-crawling, and adds a "basic" attack as well as linked attacks. Conservation of PP is much more important, as is item management, hunger, strategy in battle against multiple opponents, and so on.

Oh, and losing half your stuff when you die? That's the game being nice to you. A more hardcore Rougelike would erase your save and force you to start from the beginning of the game. Shiren the Wanderer, from the same developer, doesn't use permadeath, but takes ALL your stuff. The 'start from level 1 and no items' dungeons are basically replications of how Rougelikes usually work. Oh, and Rougelikes, as well, tend to be fucking hard as balls, dying on the very first floor from a goddamn diggle is hardly uncommon. Dark Souls? Pish. That ain't got shit on Nethack.

Pokemon Mystery Dungeon is a Rougelike. Rougelikes are, by their very nature, VERY different games from Diablo and Torchlight, despite having randomly generated dungeons. They are also can be rather complicated affairs. Dungeons of Dredmor, for example, has dozens of potential skill sets, weapon types, items, crafting, alchemy, potion brewing, different kinds of spells... The list goes on. It's not about hacking and slashing. Patience and careful thought about how you proceed are a must, whether it be figuring out whether to stay on a floor to look for items or get moving for some reason or another.

Playing a Rougelike can be a thrilling and tense experience, never knowing what's around the corner, and what kind of challenge the game can throw at you. Running into a monster house will set your nerves alight, where you'll end up right up against a horde of dozens of enemies. In Dungeons of Dredmor, running into one can be fucking terrifying, due to the fact that you're playing a permadeath rougelike and there's literally a monster for every space in the entire goddamn room. It is utterly exhilaration to slaughter them all to the point where there's so many goddamn blood spatters on the floor that the framerate starts dropping.

Rougelikes are inherently unique type of RPG. Many people absolutely adore roguelikes for many reasons, and many people also hate them (probably because they tend to be somewhat complicated and, well, hard as fuck alongside the permadeath). Mystery Dungeon is basically a rather easy rougelike compared to its cousins, and quite frankly, turning it into something like Diablo simply wouldn't do.

[Autosaver]

Yes, the main-series battle system has improved over multiple games, but it's still a turn-based affair with four attacks and items. The games boil down to going to places and fighting dudes, and solving some basic puzzles along the way. That's about it!

Edited September 15, 2012 by Autosaver

[buba]

According to Serebii, they got rid of the personality test, now the Pokémon that you are is determined by a photo taken of your face through the 3DS front camera.

There goes my Charmander and here comes Chikorita, if they are there anyway.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Tmsp

[Blacklightning]

Pokemon doesn't really consist of walking through tiny corridors and mashing two moves over and over again. A lot of strategy goes toward Pokemon battles.

Both games utilize nearly the exact same movesets, so I'm not particularly sure why you're suggesting any semblance of strategy changes significantly between them. You'd have to be lying right through your teeth to suggest that main series PKMN games didn't already consist of trawling through long, virtually linear segments of trainer routes and grinding through with one or two moves there, either.

In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that anything even remotely approaching metagame value doesn't become apparent until everyone has their levels maxed out, at the point you can't win simply by virtue of grinding 10-20 levels higher than the other guy.

Really, why are we even comparing the main series with the Dungeon games?

You brought up repetition and whatnot as a point against MD, when nearly all of the problems you've noted are things that existing PKMN fans have never taken significant issue with, or at least significantly enough to quit grinding their team post-game for the umpteenth time. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind me some more diverse cave generation either but it's pretty clear that they know exactly which target audience to cater for - something I'd say not a whole lot of liscensed spinoffs do particularly well.

It isn't just a problem with the game either, it is a problem with the aging formula. Why aren't games like the old Final Fantasy games as tolerable as Xenoblade Chronicles? The reason is because Xenoblade Chronicles evolves the formula. It completely ditches the classic turn based moves and replaces it with a fun innovative system with huge exploration. It also removes mechanics like losing your items, finding out where to go, side quests that require you to go back and forth, etc. Does Mystery Dungeon still have the "GO UP 99 FLOORS, RESTART WHEN YOU DIE!!" quests? Same with the money, does it still make you lose a ton of crap when you die?

One doesn't accuse another of comparing apples and oranges, then go on to compare two different games that aren't even remotely in the same genre. If you have a good example that's actually a rougelike I'd really like to hear it, though it sounds to me that you're just hating on the staples of the genre at this point - it's kinda like hating on fighting games for having too many QCFs.

Well aware of the hypocricy, btw.

Again, innovate the series. I don't mean take the same formula and add 3D, I mean greatly expanding the game so that it fits in with 3D atmosphere. I also don't mean platforming as in Sonic, I meant platforming elements. See those two rocks? Jump on them to get across, etc (OK, you don't have to add in platforming!). These are just some ideas that could push the series into new territory.

You're completely missing the point. The difficulty isn't in dreaming up ideas that could work conceptually so much as finding out a way to make the game generate a consistently completable floor every single time using all of those things. This isn't like Minecraft where you can just cram blocks all over the landscape with only the most basic rhyme or reason - there are factors that need to be considered every single time, or else risk making the floor completely unwinnable. Factors that include ensuring there's at least one critical path to both the bounty board objectives of the floor and the stairs to the next floor without obstructing them with water, lava, stationary PKMN or daresay, solid blocks. Factors that include balancing the size of rooms with the quantity of mobs to avoid swamping the player beyond hope of progression. Factors that include theming the floor design generation consistently enough that players won't have to guess how they should be scanning through for their objectives. Factors such as these, which you obviously neglected to consider.

And really, ask yourself this - what does any of that actually add to the game, besides acting as a barrier to the game's existing mechanics? Nobody wants their team leader to be knocked what would've otherwise been a single block's length away to fall down a hole and have to waste 5-odd turns making jumps back to the fight while the rest of the team members - stupid team members as you so put (though you probably should be feeding them more gummis) - end up having to fend for themselves in the meantime. It reeks of complexity for the sheer sake of complexity, and given how drawn out the game (hell, the genre) is by nature, pointless complexity is the last thing a game like this needs. Just make the fucking floor generator create more than tunnels and square rooms with pools in between and most fans would be happy with just that.

What if the developers managed to set a new standard for dungeon crawlers?

This is a rougelike, not a dungeon crawler. *facepalm*

Multiplayer support?

...now that you mention it, though, it does make me wonder if they plan on making multiplayer any better this time around. Rescuing another player's team was kinda neat, but I can't help but feel they could stand to gain a lot by allowing two rescue teams tackle a mission simultaneously, or a vs mode that doesn't entail giving the AI control of the other player's team.

[Autosaver]

Both games utilize nearly the exact same movesets, so I'm not particularly sure why you're suggesting any semblance of strategy changes significantly between them. You'd have to be lying right through your teeth to suggest that main series PKMN games didn't already consist of trawling through long, virtually linear segments of trainer routes and grinding through with one or two moves there, either.

Did you read the post? I said that the game can play casual or hardcore depending on the way you prefer. Sure the main game is repetitive (But I've got to disagree that spamming two moves will get you through gyms and trainers), but the core values are so complex when you learn about them. Triple Battles, Double, Rotation, EVs, IVs, Natures, etc all add to the chaos that is of the Pokemon system.

And again, I DID say that Pokemon was repetitive! People ARE getting tired of Pokemon to an extent. But at least it uses a more modern system and isn't nearly as boring as the dungeon games. There IS a reason why Pokemon Black and White aren't harshly received compared to the dungeon games.

You brought up repetition and whatnot as a point against MD, when nearly all of the problems you've noted are things that existing PKMN fans have never taken significant issue with, or at least significantly enough to quit grinding their team post-game for the umpteenth time.

Um.... People bring up the issues with Pokemon being repetitive all the time. It just isn't that bad which makes it easy to play through them. And yes, I do stop playing after the main game. It really isn't that fun anymore since all it does is become a repetitive machine.

One doesn't accuse another of comparing apples and oranges, then go on to compare two different games that aren't even remotely in the same genre. If you have a good example that's actually a rougelike I'd really like to hear it, though it sounds to me that you're just hating on the staples of the genre at this point - it's kinda like hating on fighting games for having too many QCFs.

What...? Final Fantasy and Xenoblade Chronicles ARE in the same genre. They're both JRPGs and their overall system has the same goal. The way they do it is completely different though. Wait.. you mean Torchlight to Mystery Dungeon? While they're not rougelike, they're both dungeon crawlers. TorchLight is just a reimagination of the dungeon crawler.

Yes, I do find the rougelike system annoying. There is a reason I keep stating the the Mystery Dungeon games use an outdated system that many find annoying and old. It really doesn't have the same spark that other RPGs have. It is incredibly boring and I find it one of the most repetitve things on the planet. YES, I find it more repetitive than B&W. I guess B&W just has more of an interaction between you and the Pokemon.

And no, it really isn't comparable to hating fighter games. Fighting games are not stale by any means and they innovate with each new title. Play the first Street Fighter and play the latest one. Many mechanics have changed and it has gotten with the times. Rougelike games feel stale (but some of them are complex from what I heard of an example with having a bunch of stats?)

This is a rougelike, not a dungeon crawler. *facepalm*

"The roguelike is a sub-genre of role-playing video games, characterized by level randomization, permanent death, and turn-based movement. Most roguelikes feature ASCII graphics, with newer ones increasingly offering tile-based graphics. Games are typically dungeon crawls, with many monsters, items, and environmental features."

I get what you mean.

TL;DR - To sum up all my posts --> Rougelike games are very outdated and stale. You have the pokemon franchise, do something innovative with the dungeon crawler formula. Does that mean you have to stick with Rougelike? Absolutely not!

[Blacklightning]

It is hilariously mind boggling that you can so unironically suggest there is even a peceivable difference in the way both games handle combat beyond one being tile-based, let alone either one actually having a perceivable advantage. I see a Squirtle in PKMN Black, I thunderbolt it, I see a Squirtle in MD, I thunderbolt it. I see two pokemon at once in PKMN Black, I send two pokemon back, I see two pokemon at once in MD, I sic my team on them. I spend long amounts of time trawling through dungeons and routes filled with OHKO-able wilds and trainers in PKMN Black, I spend long amounts of time trawling through dungeons filled with OHKO-able pokemon in MD. I wouldn't dream to take on an expected boss fight in PKMN Black without either a type advantage or a sizeable stock of potions and revives, and I wouldn't dream to take on an expected boss in MD without either a type advantage or a sizeable stock of oran berries, revive seeds and X-Eye seeds. It's just plain silly.

And normally I wouldn't make such a big deal about it, but this time it's only because the majority of your arguments are interchangeable to the point of absolute fucking retardation.

the game can play casual or hardcore depending on the way you prefer.

Sure the main game is repetitive

but the core values are so complex when you learn about them

Moving on.

But at least it uses a more modern system and isn't nearly as boring as the dungeon games.

If by more modern you mean "add a bunch of extra ambigous stats that make breeding an incredibly massive chore and a pointless hurdle for metagaming", then sure. See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You're discussing mechanics that serve to add complexity simply for the sake of it, and in many case act as a barrier to the mechanics the game was already built off of. Does... anybody actually want these? Serious question, guys.

Yes, I do find the rougelike system annoying.

THIS JUST IN - PERSON WHO DOES NOT LIKE ROUGELIKES HATES A ROUGELIKE. FILM AT 11.

You might as well just go home now then, if you were never in the target audience to begin with. There's absolutely no reason the games should arbitarily have to butcher themselves at their core just to appease people they were never aiming at.

I guess B&W just has more of an interaction between you and the Pokemon.

Pikachu used THUNDERBOLT!

Team leader used THUNDERBOLT!

...and the difference in interaction is what, exactly?

[-blank-]

According to Serebii, they got rid of the personality test, now the Pokémon that you are is determined by a photo taken of your face through the 3DS front camera.

What? D= No, no, no. At least with the quiz I could change my answers around so I got the Pokemon I want. This photo thing however...something tells me I'm going to be stuck with something I don't want...

[Autosaver]

Why do you continually ignore my points about Pokemon B&W adding a huge level of complexity when dealing with Natures, IVs, EVs, etc? Watch some Pokemon tournament, they can get really destructive with the amount of strategy needed to move on. You're completely brushing the point like it doesn't even exist (or you don't understand it?)

Again, I have already stated the main game is repetitive. But what exactly is complex about B&W? The amount of sheer complexity added in championships that many may not realize. Most people do not realize how exactly EVs add to the game. It is obvious you have no idea as you keep bringing up irrelevant points while focusing on the little that really wasn't supposed to be focused on. You focus on everything except my point? Why?

Seriously, the way you brush off the idea of B&W being complex or casual depending on the way you play is completely ridiculous. You call my arguments retarded, but please try to step into Serebii.net and proudly exclaim that the game is very basic. You'll instantly be rebounded with how Pokemon has a much deeper level that many fail to realize. Do you even know what EVs are? IVs? Natures? ...Do you even understand how they impact the game?

Like really, your post comes off as extremely ignorant when you go "This is retarded/doesn't make sense!" when it actually does make sense when you do your research. Unfortunately, I'm not going to retort with gifs and witty responses, but you can if you want to. If it makes you feel better, then continue to do so.

If by more modern you mean "add a bunch of extra ambigous stats that make breeding an incredibly massive chore and a pointless hurdle for metagaming", then sure. See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You're discussing mechanics that serve to add complexity simply for the sake of it, and in many case act as a barrier to the mechanics the game was already built off of. Does... anybody actually want these? Serious question, guys.

Is it chore? Maybe, but many love the fact that you can find certain pokemon to train your stats up a certain way. People take advantage of this to exploit the Pokemon or build up their team the way they want. I highly doubt it was added for the sake of it, and no one really takes it as a "barrier". You gain these bonus stats without doing specific training, you just want get the exact stats in the places you want. Yes, people actually like EVs because it adds a huge level of complexity to tournaments and championships. Do I train this Pokemon to MAX Atk and counter with Low Def? Do I want to balance out this Pokemon? Should I make this Pokemon a speed based with attacks that kill quickly? Or should I just have high defense so I can last long in battle? Now, how do I use items to make my pokemon better? Do I use this berry to recover HP in battle or should I just stick with the water amulet for bonus ATK pts? Triple battle? Should I use surf to hit all 3 and hurt my own team mates? Is it worth the risk? Should I make all my Pokemon go for the flying Pokemon? Or will the Pokemon fly out of the way before I have time to do so?

THIS JUST IN - PERSON WHO DOES NOT LIKE ROUGELIKES HATES A ROUGELIKE. FILM AT 11.

You might as well just go home now then, if you were never in the target audience to begin with. There's absolutely no reason the games should arbitarily have to butcher themselves at their core just to appease people they were never aiming at.

It just isn't me that doesn't like the game. I found it fun the first time around, but it really lost the charm after a while. First game, then second, then an enhanced version, and now a 3rd game? Meh, does it add anything new besides 3D graphics?

What if Mystery Dungeon 3D took a completely different route? What if the mechanics were changed completely? What if it dropped the rougelike genre and took on a TorchLight innovative genre? How about multiplayer support? Am I paying $40 for a 3D version of randomly generated dungeons? Roguelike games overall just have problems with them, considering the fact that games that use the same formula (Shiren the Wanderer) also have been panned for similar issues. Except, those games are much more exciting due to the high fear factor of harsh difficulty. Good or Bad can be viewed.

The animation sucks compared to the main series. Previous games have had very stale graphics and music. The graphics in the latest game don't look good either, and I'm sure the animation isn't really going to be updated either. It looks incredibly meh. Again, it is an old school type of gameplay. Games with randomly generated dungeons have the limit of quality between dungeons. They end up all feeling the same. I honestly wouldn't be surprise if the menus are still crap. The game moves awkwardly slow too, not very fun. Like I said, I'm not the only one that has a dislike toward the games mechanics. Friends, Family, Online Users, Critics, Reviewers, Magazine previews, etc.

If innovating the series to reach a broader audience is "butchering" the series, then OK. Hopefully the 3D version makes the AI turn into something that doesn't make me cry?

Things I didn't like about the Dungeon series

- The game moves too slow at normal speed, and at fast speed - your AI becomes retarded and gets "stuck"

- The inability to switch between party members removes strategic elements of taking advantage of certain types of pokemon. This is unlike the main series game, which allow you to freely swap between Pokemon. Now, can you say "Thundershock" is the same in both games, but you can't say you strategize with TM types by swapping. This adds another level of being involved in the game and reduces repetition.

- When Pokemon AI becomes retarded in a battle, you get stuck and move at a slow pace. Yay!

- When you DO want to strategize with attacks, it is very hard to move your party members to the front of the line, and when they do get to the front, you can't be certain they will use X move.

- I guess my point about it taking away items wasn't really a good point, and redundent because I've learned this is what causes the amount of danger in rougelike games. You WANT to have the sense of thrill because the game becomes less frightening and more grind like feeling when it doesn't penalize you enough. Games like Shiren the Wanderer make you feel good because you didn't lose everything. I was missing the point when I said that losing some items was dumb.

- Again with the "Randomly Generated" complaint - this means levels will vary in quality by being the same or just having stupid design.

- The combat is pretty awkward, it just doesn't feel right with the fact that it takes the classic Pokemon style and makes it feel real time. Eh, I guess this one is a stretch but yeah.

- The game isn't that challenging, and the move progression isn't that great. You may end up with the same 4 moves forever (OR LESS IF YOU TRY TO DOUBLE YOUR PP!) which does make it slightly stale.

Meh, MD seems like a "Love it or Hate it!" type of game. You can say that I'm extremely disappointed that the game didn't try a different dungeon crawler genre, but some of you are happy. I'm sure the game will be OK, but nothing more than that. I'll be waiting patiently for a dream come true.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Autosaver