Sonic and the Children

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

(images spoilered to reduce size)

Lion King

Avatar: The Last Airbender

Sequel Series Legend of Korra

Pokemon

(Yeah, I know I'm using the movie)

The Incredibles

Gargoyles

What do all these shows, games, and movies have in common? Why they're for children! (yes, even Gargoyles as if it being shown on Disney wasn't an indicator)

What else do they have in common? Many of them are rather lighthearted, sometimes downright goofy before they become very serious as they reach their climaxes in the end. Others are mixed and flipflop between lighthearted and serious.

What does any of this have to do what Sonic? Well remember the OP of that Shadow topic we had recently? This is what caught me:

Especially after SA2 where he was supposedly dead, just came back and continued his overpowered angsty recolor role for over 6 games doing nothing but complicate a childrens game even more adding more gimmicks that have nothing to do with Sonic or his vast and colorful yet simple and casual world of speed, adventure and rock music.

And then I went on a trip around the forums and the internet on the series and I've been hearing similar sentiments.

Time after time, when it comes to certain elements we have in the series such as having grim scenes, intricate plots, darker characters or characterization, there's always these common rebuttal: "This is a children's series" or it's variations "It's not for children", "Kids don't know anything about this", "Children can't handle serious things."

Yes, please think about the children. Except...

Children are routinely exposed to this in other games and shows. And what's more? Some of them are aimed directly at them. Such as the case with the examples I listed above. Children see a father figure killed right in front of them as he falls from a cliff before seeing a child running for his life in the Lion King, a movie which could be described as "Shakespear with talking Animals" (and some of you would probably believe children can't handle Shakespear). Children learn about the genocide of an entire race and culture of people, all while a war is being waged that cost the lives of many people in the world in shows such as Avatar the Last Airbender; to go even further, these kids also see straight up terrorism and an underground army that's preping for war against a city in it's sequel series of Legend of Korra. If Team Rocket, Aqua and Magma, Galactic, and Plasma aren't terrorist organizations in definition for a children's show I don't know what is, and even more, this same series manages to become darker and edgier of The First Movie: Mewtwo Strikes Back is any indicator.

The Incredibles? You see adult men, aiming real guns at children who are on a private island and are hunting them down. And don't get me started on Gargoyles, which is potentially the darkest television show aired for children. And this is just a small fraction of the examples I could have mentioned. I have a really large list. There's Megaman, Hunchback of Notre Dame (Disney's DARKEST movie), Dragonball Z, Naruto, heck we could put in DC and Marvel Comics when it comes to their animated works like Batman and the Justice League series, GI Joe, we could go all day with making a list here.

Heck, Kirby of all series has THIS of all things:

And it still passes with an E rating?!

After all this time of hearing from people how some of these things are not for children, like dark characters, more complex plots, and grim scenes I've come to a conclusion for those very people: You don't know jackshit about children.Crude and blunt, but really, you don't. Children aren't all brain-dead, stupid, or senstive as some of you imply to where they can't handle this kind of stuff being thrown at them.

And what's more is that this sentiment is flat out hypocritical, because many of these very people who say or believe that (and you know who you are) have been exposed to those things as children yourself. I doubt there is anyone here who hasn't been exposed to The Lion King (maybe a small number of people, and even that's a stretch). And everyone of you here know what Pokemon is, and while Avatar the Last Airbender may not be as famous as the previous two I'm sure you know about it as well.

So how does Sonic fit into this topic? Well basically, I don't think that such scenes that are "not for children to see" are anywhere as inappropriate as some would make them out to be. Okay, to be frank, I'd be retarded to say that the guns, tone, and the language used in ShTH were appropriate but even then, with the exception of the language, that has to do with how it was handled (and it was handled very shitty, that much can't be denied). But does that mean Sonic shouldn't have anything dark and edgy, like seeing a city that's set on fire or nuked? That depends. What about military organizations, conspiracy, and terrorism in the Sonic series? Well if a series about a bunch of mutant multicolored animals and plants fighting each other for fun can have it, why can't a series with a talking hedgehog and his multicolored friends?

Words of wisdom from SSMB member Nepenthe:

While this doesn't mean the Sonic franchise should try to go darker and edgier to compete with series like CoD, Halo, GTA, Mass Effect, or any other series you can think of, that doesn't mean it can't try it's hand at the some of the elements they do. And honestly, I consider very few things out of bounds for this series from any perspective. Okay, killing people because you feel like it is a no-no; hijacking people out of their cars is a no-no; blood is a arguable no-no; cussing is a no-no; blatant sex is a no-no (sex appeal is a different and arguable story). But things like war, violence, terrorism, military organizations, or heck influence from things like say the Nazis aren't out of bounds considering that there are other children series that do it and do a good job at it.

I've been hearing people call these things stupid and inappropriate and the likes, but I believe it's done out of spite than it is inappropriate. It's one thing to think of something as inappropriate, but using children as an excuse for why is completely ignorant to the fact that it has been done before. I'm not saying that the series should become very serious, no. But I am saying that it shouldn't be afraid or prevented from having serious elements to them.

So really, what IS out of bounds for the Sonic series. What is it that children shouldn't be exposed to in this series besides the obvious? Or is the obvious the main answer?

Edited September 25, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Soniman]

So really, what IS out of bounds for the Sonic series.

Pretty much everything that was done in Shadow the Hedgehog, honestly.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Pretty much everything that was done in Shadow the Hedgehog, honestly.

Specifically?

Because while Shadow had Guns, Cussing, and an overly dark tone, it also had a military, aliens, end of the world stuff, and various other things that one could say isn't too far out of any series grasp. A lot of which is stuff that has been done before in more than just Sonic alone.

Edited September 25, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Specifically?

Because while Shadow had Guns, Cussing, and an overly dark tone, it also had a military, aliens, end of the world stuff, and various other things that one could say isn't too far out of any series grasp. A lot of which is stuff that has been done before in more than just Sonic alone.

If I had to say something, I'd say just about anything is fair game for Sonic to attempt to some degree. The only problem is that the people who are attempting it have difficulty even writing a basic story decently the good majority of the time, or are too scared to do so for fear of the backlash.

Basically put, Sonic Team needs good writers and a thicker spine, or this junk is going to keep on going until we're all 6 feet below ground.

[Multikaris]

I actually think the series should go back to a darker tone much like in SA2, Shadow, and even 06. Most fans out there in fact prefer a darker tone. Have you seen the dozens of sad Sonic tributes? Or the fanfics which kill Robotnik? Also, mainstream gamers like dark so double score.

Edited September 25, 2012 by miru

[The drunkard from space!]

The making out with corpses part seems like a "no-no" in my book.

[Dr. Crusher]

For me, it's not about the subjects in themselves, but simply how they go about it.

Things like alien invasions, mysteries, armageddon and all that aren't the problem. The problem is making them every bit as - to put it bluntly - "real" as they would be in reality. That's not an entirely accurate or even correct way of putting it, but hopefully you get what I mean.

[sonfan1984]

I actually think the series should go back to a darker tone much like in SA2, Shadow, and even 06. Most fans out there in fact prefer a darker tone. Have you seen the dozens of sad Sonic tributes? Or the fanfics which kill Robotnik? Also, mainstream gamers like dark so double score.

Why is that consider a good thing?

[Jack / Joker]

No sex or relationship crap. That's all really. I think Sonic's current level of storytelling doesn't do him justice. Maybe not Batman levels of dark, or South Park levels of "maturity", but at least just man up and accept Sonic and silly-willy, non-existent stories a good idea does not make. I'm not saying Eggman should stab Tails or anything, but god, the series needs to grow up not only past childishness but past weird-as-hell grimdark... Find the friggin' medium...

[Wraith]

Legend of Korra? Children? Ha. haha.

I think Sonic should just stick to the Unleashed style plots. Not the overdramatic 06 bullshit, but not the nobody gives a fuck about anything Sonic Colors style either. It should have actual steaks, but not to the point of 06 or SA2. It should be accessible for all ages but it shouldn't treat everyone like 3 year olds.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

I actually think the series should go back to a darker tone much like in SA2, Shadow, and even 06. Most fans out there in fact prefer a darker tone. Have you seen the dozens of sad Sonic tributes? Or the fanfics which kill Robotnik? Also, mainstream gamers like dark so double score.

...You know, I am almost convinced by this point that you are deliberately trolling everyone with your posts.

Also,"most fans" doesn't really exist as far as I'm concerned, because we all have different views on how Sonic should be approached.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Forten Neintiinain

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Legend of Korra? Children? Ha. haha.

Well since it's on Nickelodeon on a time slot where children usually up watching cartoon, uh yeah? It's not like teenagers and adults can't watch it, but children watch it too if that wasn't obvious enough.

Well, most of the ones I see on the Internet seem to be.

I've encountered grown ass men who are dumber.

Edited September 25, 2012 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Ferno]

I actually think the series should go back to a darker tone much like in SA2, Shadow, and even 06. Most fans out there in fact prefer a darker tone. Have you seen the dozens of sad Sonic tributes? Or the fanfics which kill Robotnik? Also, mainstream gamers like dark so double score.

This is why people look down on those of us who just want their Sonic games a little more "urgent." I don't want "dark" games for the sake of being 'grimdark' or not feeling embarrassed, I just want a game that makes me feel like I should care about it's plot. And all the people who make those "sad" windows movie maker tributes and those loleggmanwaskilled fanfics are probably within that 12-15 year old range or so where life sux ever so hard so they need to take out their sorrows in their half-baked violent stories to make themselves feel better since they can't harm people in real life. Also, Sonic hasn't been "mainstream" in like, forever, so it really shouldn't matter what "mainstreamers" think considering they don't buy the games and support the series at all.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Inferno

[WarioBone]

It should have actual steaks,

Sonic could definitely use more REAL cooked meat products in his games. All those chili dogs can't be good for him.

[Nepenthe]

One thing I think people don't keep in mind when discussing this kind of thing is that there's no hard rule that demographics can't overlap in a single work. There's more to audiences than "kids" and "teens/adults." To me, a lot of the works you named are not "for children" in the sense that they cater exclusively to them, thus meaning teens and adults must throw away their preconceived notions of maturity to enjoy them; I'd reserve such a label for something like Barney, Dora the Explorer, or Mickey's Clubhouse.

Instead, for more mainstream works like Disney films and Avatar, children are a sort of a foundational demographic, but they don't dictate the extent of graphic content you can show, especially since- as you said, CSS- children can handle a lot more than we give them credit for anyway. I tend to throw these kinds of shows and films in the "family entertainment" category; there's something for everyone in them. They're much broader in appeal, juggling both brightly-colored musical numbers along with some fratricide.

But you can break that label down even further. Some works in the above, like The Incredibles, I'd even say aren't so much for children as others due to the way they handle their pacing and subject matter. Grated, I don't think a child can't emotionally handle the Incredibles, but I think they're more likely to miss a lot of the conflict and dynamics of the work and be put off by the long-running time and character development. It's still a family movie, but not as easy to jump into as, say, The Lion King.

I could continue, but all of this is to preface the idea that the more one thinks about it the more one realizes just how much labels fucking blow. Art appeals more to a near-endless spectrum of qualities than some arbitrary checklist of things. You can have a cartoon that's photo-realistic (Tintin) or one that's just completely abstract shapes (Dot and the Line). You can have a cartoon character that looks silly but handles some really mature themes (every Pixar movie ever) or you can have a semi-realistic or somewhat-stylized human cartoon character involved in some really wacky shit (slice-of-life anime). Anything's possible; that's the awesome thing about cartoons.

My ultimate point here is that there's little to nothing inherently out of bounds for Sonic to explore based upon any design qualities of the series, especially since it's always been an inherently dark and violent little beast at times anyway. At best, you can say that the series can't get away with anything outright explicit like full-on intercourse or a Final Destination-like bloodbath, and you can also make an argument about the tact in handling some things, (e.g., you can easily argue that the swearing in ShtH was stupid), but being against real guns, swearing, and murder in general? Oh please. If it's in a Disney film there's no reason it can't be in a Sonic game. People who get their knickers in a twist about the poor children Sega didn't think about just come across as fucking Puritans to me. xP

[Multikaris]

Okay, the series should not be as grim as those fanfics with Robotnik being killed in horrible ways, but still more urgent than Generations.

[Diogenes]

I think the boundaries for the series have less to do with what's okay for children and more to do with sticking to the kind of themes and elements that it was designed around. People want the series to stick with the things that attracted them to it in the first place, or at least to evolve logically from them, not veer off into whatever has caught the developers' interest or whatever they think will be popular and sell well. Is it possible to do something like ShtH and do it right? To make this grim and gritty anthropomorphic antihero who fights off both the military and invading aliens into a viable story? Probably. Honestly from what I've heard of it it's not much more (and maybe less) of a stretch than the original TMNT.

But that's not the kind of thing the series was designed to be. The series isn't toothless, but its edge was lighter, its tone more optimistic. Sonic was a bright-eyed little punk, Eggman was an over-the-top mad scientist with silly robots and machines. They made references to DBZ and Star Wars into plot elements. I'm not saying they're limited to this and only this, but these things form the guidelines that the rest of the series should flow from.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I think it's more guiding into newer elements than adhering to a guideline. Not to say you should betray what the series is designed to be, but if you wanted to try something that caught your interest, you should - as you said Dio - evolve logically from these sorts of things.

And I love how you brought up the original TMNT as an example, because it's really not too far off. But might I offer another example? It's a bit obvious considering that I use it a lot due to the similarities, but there's also the Megaman franchise. You start off as a cute robot who defends the world from an ego manical scientist who wants to rule everything in the classic series, which in turn evolves into a more mature robot who protects humanity from aberrant robots who are hellbent on wiping humanity off the face of the earth because of the previous series villain still holding a grudge, and this ends up corrupting a heroic robot who once fought for humanity into one who's leading the genocide against humans while the one originally designed to cause chaos and destruction in the world is actually fighting on humanities behalf along side the main hero. The fruits of that effort, however, ends up leading to a post apocalyptic world which is stated in the backstory to be caused by a mad scientist who felt that robots were inferior to humans and should pay for the crimes they committed in the previous series. This causes the most destructive war ever and leads to the world as it currently is at the time where the only living settlement has become fascistic in exterminating innocent robots because of an energy crisis. After that is a world where humans and reploids have become one as the lines between biological lifeforms and mechanical ones have been blurred, but even then there are problems as an ancient threat from the previous series is still causing trouble in this new world that has recovered long since.

In Sonic's case, it's not being handled in an episodic manner like TMNT or Megaman because it's threats aren't very interconnected by comparison. When it comes to such threats, Sonic beats them in one game then moves on to a completely new and unrelated threat in another. Sure, there's a degree of chronology here, but it's a lot more disjointed. Sonic 2 and 3&K are easily connected because of the Death Egg, but Sonic Adventure 1 is a whole new beginning. Sonic Adventure 2 is slightly connected to SA1, but it's still it's own self contained plot with very little connection to the previous game before it. Heroes follows suit in that the only connection from the previous game is Shadow still being around, and ShTH is only connected to Heroes because of Shadow being around back then. I could go on and on, but understand my case.

[batson]

I honestly feel that the bounds of the Sonic series isnt so much based on what is "to dark" or "to mature" for children, but more on what the series can and cant do without coming of as ridiculous and laughable to older audiences. Take Shadow the Hedgehog for instance. I really dont think it crosses any lines regarding what a child audince can stand in terms of mature content. The average 7 year old would probably just find the whole game incredibly cool, and not in the least disturbing. The game still steps outside the bounds of what kind of content a Sonic game should contain though, because for anyone over a certain age, the whole game comes of as a giant, unintenional joke.

But for sure, this has more to do with execution than with the basic story ideas. You could definitely have killings, weapons and probably even cursing in Sonic game, but you sure as hell cant have a whole game in the series be designed in every relevant aspect to look like a super-serious, grim-dark action movie from the 1980s.

[Stritix]

I was 8-9 years old when Shadow the Hedgehog came out, and I enjoyed the story, and preferred it much more than the light hearted stories at the time. I'm not saying it's a good story, but I'm saying kids can handle and prefer deeper and darker stories as well as a lot of adults can.

[Kuzu]

How about instead of labeling things with such black and white terms like "Childish" or "Adult" we opt for family orientated games? Those shows/movies in the OP are mostly labeled as "family" movies, and most of the games are "Rated E for EVERYONE" so I don't know why people mistake Everyone for anyone the age of 10.

[Alluusio]

Yeah. People often underestimate children. I remember back when my parents didn't even let me watch Pokemon because it was apparently too violent. But I don't think Sonic has ever crossed the line of not being child friendly. I first played Shadow the Hedgehog at the age of 12 and I already found the writing ridiculous back then. Granted, I was never a fan of shooters or "mature" games but even my friend who mostly played mature games found the entire game absolutely ludicrous. Seriously, I think SEGA intentionally tried to make it appeal to 8-10-old kids. Maybe if I had played it at that age I could have found it cool, but to think that teens would fall for that sort of crap, you'd have to be pretty darn dense. Then again I had a friend who saw it in a shop and immediately stated that he thought it looked cool so go figure.

I don't think the game had too mature themes. They were just poorly handled. And since when was Sonic a series specifically directed at children in the first place? I think the games should be suitable for everyone to play, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are designed with only children in mind. I thought that the target audience was always teens.

[#Based]

It's not the series as a whole and independent stories in every game for itself, it's the atmosphere that goes along with the story.

Like Unleashed and ShTH: They both had practically the same ideas, the world ending. Unleashed had a reasonable amount of seriousness without being a super dark game though, ShTH just blew it way out of proportion for obvious reasons.

Edited September 26, 2012 by #Based

[Kuzu]

I think it's because Shadow was just a terribly written game that people are just turned off by a darker atmosphere, and would blame the tone rather than the writing. If Shadow was actually written competently, I doubt people would be so hesitant about a darker game.

People tend to associate "Darker & Edgier" with "GUNS, CURSING, ALIENS, DEATH, and NECROPHOLIA" and are understandably skeptical. Like Dio said, you can do a darker game without losing the spirit of the series, something I think the Adventure and Storybook games tend to be overlooked on in this case. In both games, Sonic is still Sonic, he cracks jokes, taunts his foes, and both games have plenty of light and comical moments, but all four games seem to deal with pretty heavy subjects; War and conquest in the case of Sa1, Revenge, despair induced insanity, and government conspiracies in Sa2, abusive relationships in Secret Rings, and immortality in the case of Black Knight.

Honestly, I think people tend to exaggerate how bad Shadow was storywise, I mean yeah, it's pretty bad and is terribly written, but people seem to point to that game to justify Sonic never having any story beyond "Sonic fights some robots, and runs fast" I think it's pretty stupid to use one or two games to say "lolsawnik stories suk cuz shado"

[Dr. Crusher]

I reckon the bajillion fanfics also might have something to do with it.