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Anyone else tired of waiting for the Spin Dash to come back in 3D?


GenesisCodeX

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Anything will naturally feel different when translated between different dimensions and mediums, or even just when time passes. At the same time, I don't see Sega doing anything particularly novel or interesting with the style beyond a mere 3D translation (which we already saw to some degree with SA1 anyway) to call such a game wholly and utterly unique from the classics and not a retread, either because I see them not being particularly ambitious or they're going to be railroaded by gamer expectation of sticking as close to the original math and simplicity of the style as possible.

 

For example, remember when people pitched a fit that the Homing Attack existed in Sonic 4? It wasn't even that it ended up bad; it was that it merely existed, and this is even regardless of the fact that a fan game or hack put it in an 2D classic styled game to actual success! You can't even add a new move to the classic style without a significant number of people crying that such a move is "ruining" the whole party. Couple this rabid defensiveness with the fact that the style never really evolved to a significant degree even in Sonic Team's heyday, as well as all of the ports and fangames that only seek to emulate the style, and Classic Sonic gameplay carries with itself a kind of permanence that's as novel as it is uninteresting.

 

I personally don't see it with significantly more room to grow, same as some people here don't see Modern Sonic gameplay with any room to grow. I want something entirely divorced from either playstyle to be honest, but I want something that values speed as a tool instead of a reward, and acrobatic maneuvering available at your fingertips versus merely pressing the duck button on a hill. I'm not even saying such a game wouldn't be good. I'm just all Classic Sonic'd out. I can't take it anymore.

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Both Spin Dash and the basic roll NEED to return to Sonic. Nerf the Boost into a non-attack that will only send Sonic flying back onto his butt if he hits most enemies (without damage, just a comical animation) unless the enemy is spikes, a blast, fire, electricity, or whatever else causes instant damage. The basic roll happens when Sonic is running too fast to go into a Spin Dash but the Spin Dash / duck button is pressed. Spin Dash builds when Sonic is in a complete stop or moving at a slower pace and is able to stop instantly and blasts him off at the speed of Boost but in a rolling attack that is not as easily steerable (no use of quick step or drift while rolling). Hitting enemies while rolling does not alter Sonic's speed and slow him down as much as the Homing attack (basically how the current Boost acts).

Also while nerfing Boost into a non-attack, link it to Sonic's momentum: as Sonic gains or holds a high speed his Boost meter builds - the meter itself is segmented like in Unleashed for Wii, it requires one full segment to use Boost and one use of Boost will instantly use one full segment though if more segments have energy, the button can be held down to Boost longer (in a drain that is faster than what it currently is) - once Boost ends Sonic can hold Boost-like momentum depending on the skill of the player in the momentum based physics. Bring back Peel Out to build up Boost in a similar way as it used to build Sonic's speed (except it builds the Boost meter while standing still). And don't forget the ball physics for Sonic's rolling.

Edited by Darth InVaders
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I really don't need the Spin Dash to come back, or rolling for that matter, unless they're going to serve to be used in far more novel ways than simply the same exact, untouchable Holy classic mechanics we saw five times in a row, seven if you think Sonic N and Advance are good for anything.

N was just a port of Advance, wasn't it? That hardly counts. Plus 3 and &K are really more like one game...

I'm just not all that fundamentally impressed anymore with the thought that the ground should be used to dictate Sonic's speed of which rolling in all its forms is essential, especially when you consider that sticking to the ground is indeed at some fundamental odds with the platforming genre in the first place

How does that make any sense? Sticking to the ground is what all platforming characters do when they aren't jumping; it's the essential counterpart to being in the air. Plus there's always been gimmicks like ice physics and conveyor belts. Yeah, Sonic can go on walls and ceilings too under the right circumstances, but that gives him more options.

For example, remember when people pitched a fit that the Homing Attack existed in Sonic 4? It wasn't even that it ended up bad; it was that it merely existed,

But it did turn out bad. And I think most people (that like to dig their fingers into game design, anyway) could guess why it'd be bad before even playing the game; because it's a move that existed to simplify attacking in 3D, so it wasn't necessary in 2D, and because it creates really rigid and repetitive gameplay no matter how many dimensions it's in. It's not just "oh hurf messin with my classix!" fanboy rage, there's damn good reasoning for why the homing attack in Sonic 4 was a bad idea.

and this is even regardless of the fact that a fan game or hack put it in an 2D classic styled game to actual success!

I can't think of any hack or fan game that I've seen that does anything interesting with the homing attack in 2D (or 3D, for what it's worth). It may not have caused the game to instantly suck, but I doubt it did much more than trivialize the already fairly unthreatening cast of enemies.

Couple this rabid defensiveness with the fact that the style never really evolved to a significant degree even in Sonic Team's heyday,

They really didn't get much chance to try, with the whole post-Genesis clusterfuck.

I want ... acrobatic maneuvering available at your fingertips versus merely pressing the duck button on a hill.

The falsest of false dichotomies.
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N was just a port of Advance, wasn't it? That hardly counts. Plus 3 and &K are really more like one game...

 

I have no idea about Sonic N; I thought it was a different game. xP Regardless, the ability to play 3 and &K separately on account of the split pretty much counts them as two titles.

 

How does that make any sense? Sticking to the ground is what all platforming characters do when they aren't jumping; it's the essential counterpart to being in the air. Plus there's always been gimmicks like ice physics and conveyor belts. Yeah, Sonic can go on walls and ceilings too under the right circumstances, but that gives him more options.

Being on the ground is an essential component of most genres. But jumping and other maneuvers beyond that like say gliding or rebounding or mid-air dashing or what have you- the actual ability to get away from the ground- are just as essential if not more so towards actually defining the genre of platforming. If nothing else, aerial and vertical maneuvering are the things that make pure platforming the most fun, so I'm not enamored by the idea that to get the most bang for your buck, to get the most speed from a character that is said to have a natural affinity for it, you are pretty much completely subservient to the slope angle of the land instead of your own physical prowess. It seems weird to me in that respect. 

 

I can't think of any hack or fan game that I've seen that does anything interesting with the homing attack in 2D (or 3D, for what it's worth). It may not have caused the game to instantly suck, but I doubt it did much more than trivialize the already fairly unthreatening cast of enemies.

There was a fangame-Megamix, I believe- wherein I specifically remember people mentioning the Homing Attack's inclusion in a positive light, either because it didn't break anything or it was tweaked with classic physics or given additional utility that did indeed improve the game.

 

They really didn't get much chance to try, with the whole post-Genesis clusterfuck.

They had three chances during the actual era in which the games are made, between 1 and 3&K, and all of the games are pretty much complete retreads of one another.

 

The falsest of false dichotomies.

I don't deny that, but I'm bored enough of classic gameplay and theory as it exists to bother characterizing it or the situation beyond that, similar to how people happily trot out Boost2Win whenever they want to.

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Regardless, the ability to play 3 and &K separately on account of the split pretty much counts them as two titles.

Eh, I'm going to have to disagree. S3&K was always meant to be one experience; I can't see it counting as two just because it end up being physically split.

Being on the ground is an essential component of most genres. But jumping and other maneuvers beyond that like say gliding or rebounding or mid-air dashing or what have you- the actual ability to get away from the ground- are just as essential if not more so towards actually defining the genre of platforming.

And I don't disagree with that, I just think you're underestimating the importance of the ground. Jumping (or some temporary defiance of gravity) is what defines platformers apart from other genres, but in practice the ground has always been important, because your jump is only temporary. If a game had limitless flight, I'd hardly call it a platformer.

If nothing else, aerial and vertical maneuvering are the things that make pure platforming the most fun,

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think you need the interplay with the ground; running and jumping between platforms is more interesting than just jumping.

so I'm not enamored by the idea that to get the most bang for your buck, to get the most speed from a character that is said to have a natural affinity for it, you are pretty much completely subservient to the slope angle of the land instead of your own physical prowess. It seems weird to me in that respect.

Even Mario "Jumpman" Mario needs to use the environment to his advantage to reach the highest points. He can't jump the highest jump that was ever jumped just by standing in place; he needs to run to triple jump, he needs walls to wall jump, he needs springboards and enemies to bounce off and powerups that let him fly and cannons that shoot him into the air and dinosaurs to double jump off of...if Mario, the Jumpman, famous in universe and out for his jumping, still needs effort and outside elements for maximum upward movement, why is it so terrible for Sonic to be likewise for speed?

There was a fangame-Megamix, I believe- wherein I specifically remember people mentioning the Homing Attack's inclusion in a positive light, either because it didn't break anything or it was tweaked with classic physics or given additional utility that did indeed improve the game.

I didn't play much of Megamix (wasn't all that fond of it actually), but from what I've seen it's like I said before; the homing attack doesn't ruin the game, but it doesn't really make it any better.

They had three chances during the actual era in which the games are made, between 1 and 3&K, and all of the games are pretty much complete retreads of one another.

Do they need to reinvent the wheel every single game? Aside from the scale of the games Mario didn't change all that radically between SMB and SMB3 but that neither stopped that formula from being valid nor stop them from expanding on it with future games.

I don't deny that, but I'm bored enough of classic gameplay and theory as it exists to bother characterizing it or the situation beyond that, similar to how people happily trot out Boost2Win whenever they want to.

Hey, I don't bash the modern gameplay just because I'm bored of it. I've looked at these games in as much detail as I can and I've found the gameplay to be fundamentally shallow and limited. I've put all reasonable effort into figuring it out, but no matter how I look at it it just doesn't work.
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Even Mario "Jumpman" Mario needs to use the environment to his advantage to reach the highest points. He can't jump the highest jump that was ever jumped just by standing in place; he needs to run to triple jump, he needs walls to wall jump, he needs springboards and enemies to bounce off and powerups that let him fly and cannons that shoot him into the air and dinosaurs to double jump off of...if Mario, the Jumpman, famous in universe and out for his jumping, still needs effort and outside elements for maximum upward movement, why is it so terrible for Sonic to be likewise for speed?

I don't think that jumping and speed are equatable, because jumping is an ability to be manually activated by the player while Classic speed is not; it's merely a consequence, or as it's more popularly denoted around here, a "reward." While Mario's jumps are indeed augmented by the environment, I can still jump on perfectly flat ground whenever I please and however long I please. Jumping as an ability is automatically available to me all the time regardless of if there are walls or power-ups around to change the maneuver's context, which I feel makes for a character that's more interesting to play as and one that's more powerful. On the other hand, if I want to attain a noticeably high speed on flat ground and maintain it for however long I please under a Classic system, I cannot because this would destroy the purpose of slopes and hills, the very foundation Classic level design, and thus impact the necessity of rolling itself. As a result, attaining speed- something I believe should be a manually-activated tool like Mario's jump- much less using it for anything other than a cheap thrill is entirely context-sensitive. Take away the right environmental cues in a Classic Sonic game and you essentially get Marble Zone, which we all know is boring as fuck and is level design we should never ever see again. Ever.

 

I didn't play much of Megamix (wasn't all that fond of it actually), but from what I've seen it's like I said before; the homing attack doesn't ruin the game, but it doesn't really make it any better.

I feel the same about the Spin Dash and elemental shields; nice to have but fine to go without. However, making the game better wasn't necessarily my point so much as noting the pervading belief that a Classic game is a highly specific "thing" with numerous articles, debates, and math backing up with that "thing" specifically is, and that adding anything to it particularly outside of that bounds is at high risk of "breaking" or "ruining" it, whether or not it actually does at the end of the day. That along with other things doesn't speak to me of an adaptable game design.

 

Do they need to reinvent the wheel every single game? Aside from the scale of the games Mario didn't change all that radically between SMB and SMB3 but that neither stopped that formula from being valid nor stop them from expanding on it with future games.

Talk about false dichotomies yourself. Wheel reinvention isn't necessary for every single installment, but at the same time I don't look back at the Classic or Classic-esque games and see the gameplay actually evolving in a notable fashion (and if anything, CD worsened it). At best, it was tweaked and we got bigger stages, which is as much a testament to its quality as it is the rigidness in its design. As people around here view the Modern games, I feel Classic gameplay is a fairly one-trick pony. Everything notable we're ever going to get out of it has already been accomplished by S3&K, and at this point continuations are going to be a futile effort to outdo that game without breaking out of the confines to do something more interesting but not actually "Classic." This isn't a particularly bad thing, I think, but on top of being sick of it from burnout and the decades' long echo chamber about how amazing it is, I don't see it as all that adaptable in the first place. No one has proven it to me, not Sonic Team at their best nor the fan community, so I don't take stock in the idea that if we convert it into 3D it will actually be new and fresh and hip or whatever. It's on par with SA3 at this point; a veritable pipe dream.

 

Hey, I don't bash the modern gameplay just because I'm bored of it. I've looked at these games in as much detail as I can and I've found the gameplay to be fundamentally shallow and limited. I've put all reasonable effort into figuring it out, but no matter how I look at it it just doesn't work.

And I've not really seen anything- either through argument or actual practice- proving to me that classic gameplay has significantly untapped potential that can be further exploited, and I honestly feel that's because there's only so much you can do with rolling mechanics and curves. Hence, I feel Sonic basically needs to become a Parkour expert; I feel the ceiling's a lot higher when you've got a character that can attack terrain in multiple ways from multiple angles on his own terms, not just relying on boosting and not just relying on rolling.

 

It also wouldn't hurt to return to contextual activities peppered around the world. Mario's 3D games are made all the more richer by a multitude of activities: swimming, flying, skating, racing NPCs, cheap mini-games or whatever else is appropriate for the time. Having a pinball machine or go-kart track wouldn't devalue or subvert the main game.

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Super Mario 64 took Mario's trademark jumping ability by having much of the game design revolve around him interacting with this entirely new dimension in the fullest extent possible. Sonic's thing from the very beginning was to roll into a ball to gain speed at a much more efficient rate than he would by simply running, and I think if they were to exploit and expand that in a 3D game much like Nintendo did with Mario, there's a lot of possibilities they can explore that the Genesis games weren't able to. I don't think rolling physics and fancy acrobatics have to be mutually exclusive; I always think of how awesome it would be if Sega just took some cues from TrackMania, which combines momentum with extremely flashy stunts and impressive maneuvers.

 

A 3D game that emulates the Genesis games to a T would be pretty boring, but it's certainly possible to take elements from them to new heights if Mario was able to.

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I don't think that jumping and speed are equatable, because jumping is an ability to be manually activated by the player while Classic speed is not; it's merely a consequence, or as it's more popularly denoted around here, a "reward." While Mario's jumps are indeed augmented by the environment, I can still jump on perfectly flat ground whenever I please and however long I please.

Likewise, you can have Sonic run in circles all day on an infinite featureless plain. You don't get to go as fast as possible, but neither can Mario jump as high as possible.

Take away the right environmental cues in a Classic Sonic game and you essentially get Marble Zone, which we all know is boring as fuck and is level design we should never ever see again. Ever.

Well I agree with you on that, but it just means they need to design the right kind of levels. And Mario levels are no less designed for his abilities than Sonic's are for his. 

I feel the same about the Spin Dash and elemental shields; nice to have but fine to go without.

...considering how much you want Sonic's speed to be directly in the player's hands, I'm kind of surprised at how easily you'll drop ways the series has given you to do so. How, exactly, do you want the player to make Sonic go fast?

However, making the game better wasn't necessarily my point so much as noting the pervading belief that a Classic game is a highly specific "thing" with numerous articles, debates, and math backing up with that "thing" specifically is, and that adding anything to it particularly outside of that bounds is at high risk of "breaking" or "ruining" it, whether or not it actually does at the end of the day. That along with other things doesn't speak to me of an adaptable game design.

Whiny fans with their heads stuck in their asses don't make a damn bit of difference as to how flexible the gameplay concept is. You see the same shit in every fanbase, a contingent of older fans who can't see anything beyond replicating their childhood. It's just magnified for Sonic because of how severely the series fucked itself up (and I'm talking primarily ShtH/'06, not specifically the modern gameplay). There are reasonable limits to how Sonic should play (as is true of any series with a coherent concept), but they're far wider than cowardly grognards think they are.

Talk about false dichotomies yourself. Wheel reinvention isn't necessary for every single installment, but at the same time I don't look back at the Classic or Classic-esque games and see the gameplay actually evolving in a notable fashion (and if anything, CD worsened it).

All we're going on is a couple of games released in a tight timeframe; it's not exactly a situation amenable to experimenting. That they didn't doesn't make it impossible to do it, anyway.

and at this point continuations are going to be a futile effort to outdo that game without breaking out of the confines to do something more interesting but not actually "Classic."

Only if they're shit about it. The classic gameplay doesn't have to be put in that tiny little S3&K 2 box.

And I've not really seen anything- either through argument or actual practice- proving to me that classic gameplay has significantly untapped potential that can be further exploited, and I honestly feel that's because there's only so much you can do with rolling mechanics and curves.

If nothing else it's a hell of a lot more flexible than the modern gameplay. Just because you have curves and rolling doesn't mean that's literally all the game can be made of. Rolling never stopped Sonic from bouncing off springs, floating over fans, flinging off pinball paddles, swinging from vines, etc etc.

Hence, I feel Sonic basically needs to become a Parkour expert; I feel the ceiling's a lot higher when you've got a character that can attack terrain in multiple ways from multiple angles on his own terms, not just relying on boosting and not just relying on rolling.

See you keep doing this thing where you act like having rolling means there's nothing Sonic can do but walk, jump, and roll. That's absolutely false. Probably almost any parkour kind of move can be integrated with rolling mechanics.

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This debate will get me tired before the sun dawns, so I'll just say the following and nothing more:

 

Sonic is, or was, fundamentally a game in which the same buttons used to move are used to attack.

 

Reflect upon this.

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Likewise, you can have Sonic run in circles all day on an infinite featureless plain. You don't get to go as fast as possible, but neither can Mario jump as high as possible.

Well, throw a boost in there- any kind of boost- and perhaps you can actually go as fast as possible on flat terrain. :3c

 

...considering how much you want Sonic's speed to be directly in the player's hands, I'm kind of surprised at how easily you'll drop ways the series has given you to do so. How, exactly, do you want the player to make Sonic go fast?

So long as the way is potentially permanently sustainable sustainable by the player's input and choice- a boost, a plain run, or whatever, it doesn't particularly matter to me how it's done. Again, this doesn't mean it cannot be augmented by the terrain or certain situations like Mario's jumping is (make boosting down hill actually make you go faster, and slower as you go uphill), but rather that the actual ability itself isn't entirely context-sensitive and limited.

 

Whiny fans with their heads stuck in their asses don't make a damn bit of difference as to how flexible the gameplay concept is. You see the same shit in every fanbase, a contingent of older fans who can't see anything beyond replicating their childhood. It's just magnified for Sonic because of how severely the series fucked itself up (and I'm talking primarily ShtH/'06, not specifically the modern gameplay). There are reasonable limits to how Sonic should play (as is true of any series with a coherent concept), but they're far wider than cowardly grognards think they are.

On the contrary, I do think the fanbase has a hand to some degree in defining the bounds of gameplay of the series they admire, not only because we're the main party being catered to and will thus demand more of the same shit because the same shit- if it's fun- is good, but also because we have a very technical aspect of our community that has done a very fine job in actually ripping these games apart and documenting their objective code in the first place to present an idea or ideal with which we've all generally come to understand as "classic mechanics." It's not just whiny manbabies needing nostalgia; it's been the collective effort by the fan base over the years to understand these games in a better light that has inevitably fueled and dictated the discourse on what is and isn't classic.

 

Assuming this is all bullshit and the responsibility of definition falls solely to Sonic Team, Sonic Team hasn't actually done a very good job in finding a solid gameplay style and actually expanding it in a meaningful manner over the many, many years the series has existed anyway, so yet again I've got no reason to take stock in your belief.

 

All we're going on is a couple of games released in a tight timeframe; it's not exactly a situation amenable to experimenting. That they didn't doesn't make it impossible to do it, anyway.

Four games released within a timespan of about five years, plus Sonic Adventure's rolling mechanics three years later, plus the Advance series released a few years after the fact isn't a situation amenable to experimentation how exactly??? That's eight or so games released over the series' lifespan, one of which being in true 3D to boot. Subsequently, I'm supposed to believe three modern games released within a span of four years, one of which actually functions radically differently from the other two to the point of being sort of a different beast altogether, means the style is a complete dead end. At this point, I don't really see a difference between the two in terms of their potential to expand. If one can reasonably expand, so can the other by all accounts.

 

If nothing else it's a hell of a lot more flexible than the modern gameplay. Just because you have curves and rolling doesn't mean that's literally all the game can be made of. Rolling never stopped Sonic from bouncing off springs, floating over fans, flinging off pinball paddles, swinging from vines, etc etc.

And modern gameplay hasn't really stopped Sonic from bouncing off of springs, bouncing off of balloons, shooting through rings, riding sleds, grinding on rails, using zip lines, swinging around on poles, digging, flying, becoming a laser, etc., or even being pinballed in Generations, nor is there any objective barrier from implementing things like fans, so how are obstacles and extraneous objects Sonic can interact with notable in defining what the limits to a base gameplay style are?

 

See you keep doing this thing where you act like having rolling means there's nothing Sonic can do but walk, jump, and roll. That's absolutely false. Probably almost any parkour kind of move can be integrated with rolling mechanics.

It's as false as all of the cynical beliefs around here regarding the lack of adaptability modern gameplay. Literally nothing you've said in this discussion and others has logically substantiated your belief that classic gameplay has significant grounds to improve and the modern gameplay doesn't at all. You're merely insisting very hard that these things are true, regardless of my personal experiences with games in both styles being that they're all just retreads of one another and don't really push the confines of their respective styles possibly due in part to them possessing inherently narrow mechanical definitions as to what they are. And you know, anecdotes aren't evidence, "agree to disagree," all that jazz.

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I'm just gonna echo Sean with what he said about parkour and rolling..

 

bm8k.jpg

 

I mean come on! Both use the environment as a tool to get around, and combined make a feeling of like, perfect flow. You can't tell me that mixing the two wouldn't be a good combination, if they go the more "nimble Sonic" route sometime!

 

Also as far as I can tell, rolling isn't anywhere near tired out as a concept in a Sonic game. That's like saying the Zelda games just aren't fun anymore because the game's base is the same (whether we're talking 2D or 3D). And I still to this day have as much fun as I did well over a decade flipping and jumping around Mario 64, let alone spinning down slopes in Sonic CD or 3K. Its just one of those types of things that doesn't get old to me.. but somehow boosting has.

 

I could always try to pinpoint the millions of little things that make me feel that way about it, but I think that pointing out how it's "go top speed until the gauge is out" speaks for itself. And it still could be interesting past that (and in some occasions has been interesting), but most of the time it really isn't.

 

Still, I know boosting, rolling, Spindashing, and parkour can exist pretty well with themselves in one game without any problems. Anyone played the current builds of the SonicGDK engine (read: CURRENT, its got a lot better over time)? ..No? Okay back to working on SWR then.. =V

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I'm just gonna echo Sean with what he said about parkour and rolling..

 

bm8k.jpg

 

I mean come on! Both use the environment as a tool to get around, and combined make a feeling of like, perfect flow. You can't tell me that mixing the two wouldn't be a good combination, if they go the more "nimble Sonic" route sometime!

 

Also as far as I can tell, rolling isn't anywhere near tired out as a concept in a Sonic game. That's like saying the Zelda games just aren't fun anymore because the game's base is the same (whether we're talking 2D or 3D). And I still to this day have as much fun as I did well over a decade flipping and jumping around Mario 64, let alone spinning down slopes in Sonic CD or 3K. Its just one of those types of things that doesn't get old to me.. but somehow boosting has.

 

I could always try to pinpoint the millions of little things that make me feel that way about it, but I think that pointing out how it's "go top speed until the gauge is out" speaks for itself. And it still could be interesting past that (and in some occasions has been interesting), but most of the time it really isn't.

 

Still, I know boosting, rolling, Spindashing, and parkour can exist pretty well with themselves in one game without any problems. Anyone played the current builds of the SonicGDK engine (read: CURRENT, its got a lot better over time)? ..No? Okay back to working on SWR then.. =V

Parkour+rolling physics? Sounds interesting. How would it work though? What would the moveset be like? What kind of crazy stunts would you be able to pull off?

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Okay, this is actually really easy to answer!

Tighten Sonic's movement, and slow it down a bit. Make it SA speed or tighter (like said, go look up recent videos of SonicGDK to see where I'm going with this).

 

Add a wall-clench thing that does wall jumping at a still and at movement a mini-wall-run, ledge grabbing (maybe as a vault jump when at speed), and a backwards skidding jump like you can do when pressing the opposite direction and jumping in Mario 64. Then add rolling, jumpdash/homing attack, spindash, the rest of the arsenal you may need.

 

Done! Just adding a couple of things like that would just cook itself when applying the rest of Sonic's general mechanics.

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I prefer the spin dash, not just because it's a "classic" element, but because it makes more sense to me. Sonic is a hedgehog (no, really?) thus rolling would be a natural ability for him. The spin dash is essentially Sonic using his incredible speed to weaponize his rolling ability. Compare that to the boost, which is just a generic "run faster" move. In fact, it's kind of telling that when they finally decided what Sonic was going to be, the choices had been narrowed down to Mighty a feral armadillo and Mr. Harinezumi, both creatures that can roll about in real life.

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Okay, this is actually really easy to answer!

Tighten Sonic's movement, and slow it down a bit. Make it SA speed or tighter (like said, go look up recent videos of SonicGDK to see where I'm going with this).

 

Add a wall-clench thing that does wall jumping at a still and at movement a mini-wall-run, ledge grabbing (maybe as a vault jump when at speed), and a backwards skidding jump like you can do when pressing the opposite direction and jumping in Mario 64. Then add rolling, jumpdash/homing attack, spindash, the rest of the arsenal you may need.

 

Done! Just adding a couple of things like that would just cook itself when applying the rest of Sonic's general mechanics.

I like these ideas, but what use would the back-jump be? Just for extra height? Because if it was used like it's used in Mario 64 (to get to a higher place by stopping quickly and jumping backwards and higher), I feel that might be flow breaking unless you kept your forward momentum when you jumped (only slowing down to the speed that you skidded down to).

 

Also, what if you wanted to wall-jump out of a wall-run? Would you have to be stopped to wall-jump?

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*a whole bunch of awesome stuff about how Sonic games should play*

 

Sounds to me like you're suggesting the love child of Sonic and Jet Set Radio. And that's a-ok in my books.

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Well, throw a boost in there- any kind of boost- and perhaps you can actually go as fast as possible on flat terrain. :3c

Yeah, and you can trivially make Mario jump skyscrapers in a single bound, but that's not necessary for him to be Jumpman, and it's not what's best for his gameplay.

So long as the way is potentially permanently sustainable sustainable by the player's input and choice- a boost, a plain run, or whatever, it doesn't particularly matter to me how it's done. Again, this doesn't mean it cannot be augmented by the terrain or certain situations like Mario's jumping is (make boosting down hill actually make you go faster, and slower as you go uphill), but rather that the actual ability itself isn't entirely context-sensitive and limited.

What "ability"? Sonic's "ability to run" isn't context sensitive, beyond needing some kind of ground to run on. 

On the contrary, I do think the fanbase has a hand to some degree in defining the bounds of gameplay of the series they admire, not only because we're the main party being catered to and will thus demand more of the same shit because the same shit- if it's fun- is good, but also because we have a very technical aspect of our community that has done a very fine job in actually ripping these games apart and documenting their objective code in the first place to present an idea or ideal with which we've all generally come to understand as "classic mechanics." It's not just whiny manbabies needing nostalgia; it's been the collective effort by the fan base over the years to understand these games in a better light that has inevitably fueled and dictated the discourse on what is and isn't classic.

They become whiny manbabies when they can't look beyond what the classics did. I respect the people that have picked the games apart and figured out how they worked, both in a technical sense and in why we like them, but if they take that as the end-all be-all, they're strangling the series with its own umbillical cord, and that kind of thinking needs to be struck down as much as any stupid idea.

Assuming this is all bullshit and the responsibility of definition falls solely to Sonic Team, Sonic Team hasn't actually done a very good job in finding a solid gameplay style and actually expanding it in a meaningful manner over the many, many years the series has existed anyway, so yet again I've got no reason to take stock in your belief.

If we're just going to assume they'll continue like this, there's really no point in giving a shit about Sonic at all.

Subsequently, I'm supposed to believe three modern games released within a span of four years, one of which actually functions radically differently from the other two to the point of being sort of a different beast altogether, means the style is a complete dead end.

Not because of the number of games, but because of the inherent limitations of what they do. I'm not going to get into a huge rant about the modern gameplay because after doing it probably literally 100 times I'm tired of it, but the modern games have only allowed for two kinds of gameplay; boosting, which is all about running straight ahead and dodging obstacles as the level guides you along because you can't do any kind of detailed work at that kind of speed, and not boosting, which is a bland jog where most of Sonic's abilities have nothing to offer and basically makes for a sloppy one-button platformer.
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Going from Azookara's train of thought, my ideal Sonic 3D platformer would be a mixture of momentum physics and Prince of Persia, post-Sands of Time. The free-running in Sands of Time is less realistic than the Assassin's Creed series that inspired it, and involves multiple types of unique stunts that compliment momentum considerably, not to mention it's challenging, and as Assassin's Creed proved, very suited to a more open environment rather than the Modern gameplay's linearity.

 

Actually, thinking about it, the Prince had moves using his sword that would've suited Black Knight!Sonic considerably. Hell, Sonic used Caliburn to descend down walls.

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Why over-complicate things with the parkour when it could be accomplished with the Homing Attack?

 

 

Does anyone remember this awesome post? I brought it back up because I thought it was relevant. 

Edited by Generations (Chaos Warp)
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I'm extremely iffy about automated attacks that practically do everything for you in general. So any variant on the homing attack can go fuck itself. With a large dildo.

 

But the thread DID provide one excellent potential template:

 

 

Though, good luck making it work on a console. I can't fathom that kind of game working properly on anything other than a mouse and keyboard.

Edited by Shirou Emiya
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I'm extremely iffy about automated attacks that practically do everything for you in general. So any variant on the homing attack can go fuck itself. With a large dildo.

 

But the thread DID provide one excellent potential template:

 

 

Though, good luck making it work on a console. I can't fathom that kind of game working properly on anything other than a mouse and keyboard.

But......The Homing Atttack is kind of needed in 3d because jumping on enemies doesn't work nearly as well in 3d. With the speeds involved in a Sonic game, jumping on enemies manually becomes a big chore.

 

Off Topic: Damn I really want that game!

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I like these ideas, but what use would the back-jump be? Just for extra height? Because if it was used like it's used in Mario 64 (to get to a higher place by stopping quickly and jumping backwards and higher), I feel that might be flow breaking unless you kept your forward momentum when you jumped (only slowing down to the speed that you skidded down to).

That's the idea. In Mario 64 it does the same thing. You hold the built up speed you gained from moving forward and do a backwards hop.

 

 

Also, what if you wanted to wall-jump out of a wall-run? Would you have to be stopped to wall-jump?

 

No, that's just an idea of how it would work. You latch to the wall temporarily, whether its at a standstill or moving, and will slide off after a second or two (or longer if you could hold your speed). Jumping would just make you jump off of it but retaining whatever built up speed you had when contacting the surface as well.

 

As much as I like messing with this idea, I'm gonna run off on another note..

 

Really I've just realized in the past day or so from playing Colors (no not on emulator.. okay I was don't judge me) that the game would've been a lot more fun as a game if they would've put rolling in as a fundamental ability. Boosting wasn't often used in that game, as it came in short supply. So why not have more areas where rolling helps you go very high speeds for downhill, and boosting helps you hold a speed or make it uphill? Just saying that Colors' 3D sections (what little they were) would've been so much more fun if I A ) would've had control over what was going on more and B ) would've not put a speedcap on sliding. :P

 

And yes I did talk about this before in this very same topic, I'm just reiterating that I still believe this. LOL

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I don't miss the spindash, but I could see it working in a modern game. It would just have to require no energy and be less powerful than a boost. And not spammable. is that even a word? never mind...

I could see it working still. But alot of people will think it's redundant (including me)

 

I do miss the spindash in Sonic 4. It has a spindash, but who uses it? Really? Everyone airdashes for speed. There's no reason not to.

Or you super 69 team spin.

 

Perhaps they could add the super 69 attack into 3D

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You didn't think about what I said. I sort of feel forced to do so myself.

 

Very well. So the classic Sonic gameplay was entirely designed so that you can play with only one action button. Because for that, what you do to move is also what you do to overcome any additional obstacle. In that sense, the game gives you complete control over Sonic from the get-go. And the complete control over Sonic gives you complete freedom in the level. Sonic's motion play is the one factor that makes you the king of the level before you even know it. You need only yourself to complete the levels.

 

There is, however, an intrinsic contradiction to Sonic's gameplay foundation. Because Sonic is yours right from the start and nothing else, the level design is everything there is to counter the player's initiative. The game has to try to stop Sonic, after all. The problem is that the level design is also what makes the player actually feel in control. Unless you have slopes, rolling has no effect. Unless you have what to jump on, jumping has no effect. Momentum is a very, very delicate dialogue between the player and the level design. The balance must be perfect, so that the game doesn't feel lacking in challenge or possibilities and, frequently, these things come together. You only improve your skill knowing what to do with Sonic's skills within what the level design allows, stimulates or refrains. So even though you are completely free, you are also completely bound by the level design.

 

That might be why you guys think Marble Zone is boring. There is nothing that relates so closely with Sonic. Even though I'd disagree and claim restraining yourself is a part of improving your skill while playing as Sonic, that's not the point. What's crucial to the discussion here is that Marble Zone is indeed out of balance. However, as we can see from what I said, the possibilities lie on the level design - and they are downright endless. The possibilities for Sonic's motion play are infinite and, so, this game foundation is very effective. I don't see why would one want to get rid of it and want a gameplay more based in aerodynamics and acrobatic moves. What could be more acrobatic than what you can and often have to do in Spring Yard Zone? When it comes to moving in the air, what could be more fun than falling and not knowing what's below? Sonic's classic game foundation can encompass this and much more. It's a solid starting point to a lot of things. Creativity is needed here, drawing from principles, not exactly examples and traditions. That's where I see the fanbase of today fails. We know a lot, but take into account all too little.

 

Now speaking more about the spindash. I think it's an important move. Sonic 1 was slightly out of balance, favouring the level design. The most notable symptom was staying in front of a loop and having to come back, which did the game more bad than good. The spindash fixed that and allowed the player to have more control over Sonic, especially because it had to be used while stopped. The boost, simply for not needing that, puts the foundation in favour of the player. It's a coherent concept in itself, but changes the balance of a very useful Sonic's concept dramatically. If you want to take away Sonic's classic game foundation, alright. But you'll have to give him another foundation instead of changing just because parkour is so much cooler.

Edited by Palas
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How would parkour moves remove the feel of not knowing what's below and freefalling? Or interacting with the environment? Wouldn't it just emphasize that? Its still jumping and running, just in different ways by reacting to different surfaces in different manners. The only one I mentioned that is a bit more than that (the Mario 64 - esque backwards skid jump thing) does no more than transfer speed of what you gained and shortly held back in horizontal movement to vertical movement in the opposite horizontal direction. Its like a natural common sense thing that just "clicks" when you feel it.

 

Also, like it or not, "one action button" can not and will not work in 3D. At best and at the most simplest, you can get it down to two or three, but unless you want it to play like tanks (see: Sonic R), it seems pretty downright impossible.

 

Regardless, I agree completely on the whole theory of balancing out how the player and level design balance with each other. Good stuff.

Edited by Azookara
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