Slowing Sonic Down

[iDEATH]

I was reading an article the other day, explaining why Square-Enix won't do a remake of Final Fantasy VII despite a huge number of fans wanting one.

It basically said that to make a game the scope of FF7 on ps3 hardware would be too large a project.

It sounds weird, "if they can make it on ps1 surely it would be easy to do on ps3". The problem is that to make environments with the level of detail seen in modern games is just too big a task.

It's evident everywhere, games seem to be getting shorter and shorter and that's why. The additional detail required in characters and environments means the length of games need to be cut drastically or they simply can't be made.

It made me think of developer interviews around the time of unleashed that explained why SEGA were so reluctant to make Sonic the only playable character in the games.

They blamed the fact that, because sonic runs so fast, the environment required for a level that takes ten minutes to complete needs to be miles long. Designing 10 - 20 unique stages that are of that length, at the level of detail required is a huge job. So they swapped levels for characters like the werehog or classic sonic who can use smaller environments.

So if the trend in the games is to make sonic faster and faster each time, then the results will either be games with other playable characters or games that are much shorter.

So, that said, what would you think about making sonic slower?

If the games dropped his speed to around what it was in the adventure games then environments could be cut down, limiting the work load and allowing for sonic only games.

Or is the trade off in sonics speed vs game length worth it to you?

What do you guys think?

[MegaMan_EXE]

Well, just give the other characters their own designed areas for the Zones.

That sounds easier than slowing Sonic down.

Also, don't make Sonic slower or faster. Just give him more Zones and Acts to do.

[iDEATH]

Well, just give the other characters their own designed areas for the Zones.

That sounds easier than slowing Sonic down.

Also, don't make Sonic slower or faster. Just give him more Zones and Acts to do.

No offense, but I think you've missed my point

That IS what they do and the do it becaue it IS easier.

But seeing as so many people complain about having to play as other characters I'm wondering how SEGA could make a sonic only game that works.

[MegaMan_EXE]

No offense, but I think you've missed my point

That IS what they do and the do it becaue it IS easier.

But seeing as so many people complain about having to play as other characters I'm wondering how SEGA could make a sonic only game that works.

Forgive me, but I'm not exactly sure what you mean. You think Sonic should be slower, and have other playable characters?

I read it, but I'm not sure what I'm missing the point of. Yeah, I don't see got point. Sorry.

[Sega DogTagz]

Also, don't make Sonic slower or faster. Just give him more Zones and Acts to do.

That's the problem OP is getting at. If Sonic can push the sound barrier in gameplay (See Unleashed or Generations) Then giving him more zones and acts isn't always an option that's on the table. The amount of assets that goes into any given level has to scale with how fast Sonic can blow through them.

[Indigo Rush]

I'm in favor of slowing Sonic down just a tad, just to try something a little different from what we've been getting so far. The nice thing about Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 was that while there was a nice sense of speed, it still took a bit of time to complete a level. Emerald Coast, Windy Valley and Ice Cap didn't take long, but once you got to Twinkle Park, things started to get a bit more difficult and the time to complete a level would naturally become longer. Even then, Sonic was still fast.

This would make the moments where you do run very fast a bit more memorable and special, hearkening back to how the classics handled speed.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Indigo Rush

[Sega DogTagz]

I rather the games use pacing elements to slow Sonic down rather than actually taking his foot-speed down a few notches. Unleahsed, and to a lesser extent, Generations have an exhilarating sense of speed that I'd like to keep around. Slowing sonic down with platforming sections (which can be kept fun and speedy in their own right) would serve a similar role as slowing Sonic himself down, and at the same time would make the fast sections of the stage that much more memorable.

A few vertical sections here, a skydiving segment there, and a few tight spaces to boot and Sonic can spent a little more time in certain parts of the stage no problem.

[iDEATH]

Forgive me, but I'm not exactly sure what you mean. You think Sonic should be slower, and have other playable characters?

I read it, but I'm not sure what I'm missing the point of. Yeah, I don't see got point. Sorry.

Basically if you want a game that only has sonic playable then there's two options

Keep sonic's speed/ increase sonics speed = Shorter game

Slow sonics speed = longer game

I'm not saying we slow him massivly (Labyrith 2 anyone? ) I'm saying that decreasing his speed slightly could lead to longer and better games.

It could also stop the feeling that the recent games have, that of pressing up on the controller and Sonic doing most of the work. In adventure there was a lot more exploring/platforming to compliment the straight forward running.

[Emerald Chaos]

They could always go for another option and decrease the level of detail in the graphics.

They could probably get away with that if they went for a really stylized look and it would give them more time to model out more and bigger levels.

Just throwing this out there

[Amomynous]

So, that said, what would you think about making sonic slower?

If the games dropped his speed to around what it was in the adventure games then environments could be cut down, limiting the work load and allowing for sonic only games.

Or is the trade off in sonics speed vs game length worth it to you?

What do you guys think?

Since Sonic Unleashed, 'hedgehog Sonic' has been slowed down with Colours and Generations, and I haven't really minded it, but with the bonus levels in Unleashed and Generations it doesn't look like they're really struggling to get the levels done on time, I mean they had the time for bonus content, or am I missing something?

I

[Blacklightning]

If it's simple game longetivity you're after, then trying to quantify it as a simple matter of physical speed is completely missing the point. This isn't some kind of problem you can define as mathematically as "gaem - speed = longer gaem" - players need to have a reason to play the game more than once, otherwise they'll pick it up once, play all the way through and never touch the fucking thing ever again. How exactly you define a means to keep a player playing, however, is something I'd rather leave open to debate, but it could be anything from making red ring collection less of a chore to not handing out S ranks on a silver platter if you so much as get through a stage without dying. Or, you know, simply making a really fucking good game.

To me, nothing hits this point home more than a comparison between S3&K and Colours. The former can be completed in just over an hour if you're good at it, and I've known plenty people who've kept playing it for years (not including us folk who are still playing it). Colours can be completed in a day if you're patient, and I've known plenty of people who've never touched it again afterwards. The dissonance in replay value between them is definently something that should be discussed, but I can personally assure you that speed in relation to game assets is most certaintly not the deciding factor - hell, the boost doesn't come as readily in Colours as it does in its bigger brothers anyway, but you'd still be hard pressed to call it long lasting in any sense.

[Eternal EX]

Maybe it's time for the next generation. Sonic game, at his current speed, wont be long. If i have to sacrifice speed for depth of a game, I'll do it. But to counter what you said, Sonic Adventure 2 was also pretty short. And Sonic/shadow weren't moving no where near as fast as they currently are. And hell, colours was pretty slow, compared to Unleashed and Generations, and even that game got the short end.

I say, give Sonic games tons of DLC. Like unleashed, it alone had probaby 20 Sonic stages (short and long) with only 8 MAYBE 9 werehog stages. It's not that Sega can't give us these extra stages to make our replayability longer, it's more like they just choose not too. Or don't have the money.

They could always go for another option and decrease the level of detail in the graphics.

They could probably get away with that if they went for a really stylized look and it would give them more time to model out more and bigger levels.

Just throwing this out there

Generations was packed with tons of art and music. They could have replaced those and added a stage or 3. AND THEY STILL COULD HAVE GIVEN US DLC!!

Edited October 4, 2012 by Eternal X

[Diogenes]

Unleahsed, and to a lesser extent, Generations have an exhilarating sense of speed that I'd like to keep around.

Personally, I'm bored of that speed. It was cool at first, but you play it for a while, and eventually it flattens out, it becomes the new normal. Once you've adjusted to that speed enough to be good at the game, I don't see how it can be exhilarating anymore. And it's at that point that I start questioning how much I'm actually playing the game and how much the game is playing itself, and the modern games have really not held up well under this.

This, I think, is why I have more respect for Colors than Unleashed or Generations. Colors isn't an especially good game; the controls are kind of dodgy, it's a little too caught up in its gimmick, there are too many short, gimmicky acts rather than full-fledged levels, and the story pretty much stalls after the first world. But unlike its predecessor and successor, it doesn't insist on full speed all the time. Boost is fairly limited rather than nearly omnipresent, platforming is a bigger factor, and top speeds are generally limited to straightaways and some of the wisp powers. So the gameplay is actually paced to have meaningful actions (although Colors really isn't taking much advantage of it), you still do get to go fast, and when you go really fast it actually means something.

So I think more important than any particular speed is contrast. In normal situations Sonic should be quick, in advantageous situations he should be fast. They don't need to try and make him actually faster than the speed of sound and they damn sure don't need to make him keep that speed constantly.

Generations was packed with tons of art and music. They could have replaced those and added a stage or 3.

That's nowhere near an equal trade, dude. Edited October 4, 2012 by Diogenes

[Scar]

Sonic doesn't need to be slower. The levels need to be designed so Sonic isn't blasting through them at max speed constantly.

Generations was packed with tons of art and music. They could have replaced those and added a stage or 3. AND THEY STILL COULD HAVE GIVEN US DLC!!

The first part makes no sense. Having art and music requires very little development effort at all, whereas constructing a stage takes a lot of time.

And yes, they could have given us DLC, but at this stage I'd rather they focus on making the next game, than extending the length of the previous one. Just because DLC is possible, doesn't mean its needed.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Scar

[Multikaris]

Return to the momentum-based gameplay style, instead of boost.

[Bright Eyes]

I'm a huge fan of Generations but I agree that he needs to slow the heck down.

The levels are absurdly large and it takes way too long to make them.

Either they have to slow Sonic down or tune down the graphics. I would actually be happy with either.

[Wittymations]

Perhaps one could add, in most levels, at least, inner acts that are less graphically demanding, takes a couple of seconds to get through (if one's good) and have someone's position fairly stalled in the overall level. Kinda like in Windy Valley where that tornado takes you. You gotta jump out of there.

I wouldn't expect that tornado to be that demanding of textures (a realistic one, these days, may, however). Each platform was divided, and it took a few seconds to get through.

But it's really only a quick sorta-fix. Meh, just a thought. Even if it's used, it'll get to the point where the players know that's what the designers were trying to do and get angry.

[Nepenthe]

The Cheese makes the most sense to me and touches on a point I've tried to make before: not only is replay value greater than a factor of objective game length, but it's different things to everybody, so the same game is going to have a replay value of different values between individuals regardless of the actual amount of content present. It's actually a more subjective subject than it's been made out to be in past conversations. So reducing the speed is not inherently the answer (if it were, I'd still be bothering with Colors). Quality in a way is not either, although of course we should always strive for the highest quality games possible. I mean, I've only beaten Super Mario Galaxy once and never touched it again because I feel like I've gotten everything out of it that I need and because I don't feel Luigi is actually worth the trouble of getting all of those stars. But I've replayed Unleashed all the way through three times, two of those times in about eight to ten hours, because it has an infinitely more interesting and realized world that I genuinely enjoy spending time in, and it's certainly a worse game than Galaxy.

So for me personally, replay value hinges just as much, if not more so, on how interesting and fun you can make the surrounding world of the game, and how much of that world you give that player to muck around in, as it does on actual content length. Putting more stages in Colors wouldn't have made me more interested in continuing to play it once it was over; slowing Sonic down significantly did fuck all for my apathy as well.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Nepenthe

[JezMM]

I agree with Dio that Colours was good for having levels of varying contrasting speeds. I'm totally okay with that, it was only lackluster to me in Colours because the speedy levels were so mind-numbingly simple. If they had been as engaging and cinematic as Generations' it would have been okay.

I am mostly certainly okay as well with bringing back the Act systems. Hell, even 3 Acts per Zone is good with me if they can reuse assets, maybe have a big unique cinematic moment on one or two of the acts and then the rest just being pure gameplay with no more flair than Sonic naturally provides by being faster than the average platformer.

I'd also be okay with some highway in the sky-esque levels. Not in the same, drab way that Generations 3DS did it, more like the bonus acts of Unleashed, like Windmill Isle Act 1-1 or Act 3. Use existing assets to make a background that connects you to the location you're playing in, but have all the action take place on quite generic scenery in the foreground. Obviously this would only really work in a tolerable sense if such stages were mostly 2D, which, I'll admit I really don't want anymore 3D/2D combo games but... I'd deal with it. As long as there's a varied amount and we don't end up with a huge amount of gimmicks that only show up in one dimension or the other like in Colours and Generations (namely underwater segments grrr).

[Anti Alias]

Remembering that while Generations was in development, they made levels and assets for both Colors and Generations, that gives us a pretty decent number of levels together.

I think Sonic Team just needs more time. But I agree I'd prefer if the boost were more like in Colors for the sake of a more balanced pace.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Anti Alias

[Old dead account]

I'd be totally ok with them cutting down the amount of section where literally all you do is run forward while boosting for about 10 seconds. Those parts must be like what, at least 5 miles long going at Sonic's speed? Sounds like a lot of work for a quick thrill that lasts for the first few times you play maybe. Generations and Colors weren't nearly as bad about this as Unleashed was, but still.

[Semi-colon e]

I think the best/worst example of this is seen during the Doppleganger mission of City Escape Modern. In terms of pure length (not time), like half of it is devoted to the truck as shown by the progress bar thing. It's stuff like this that makes me prefer Speed Highway (for constantly changing what's going on even if it is boost to win, like one minute you're skydiving, the next doing the building run, then some drifting, adding a bit of variation with it) and Crisis City (where the simple boosting stuff is much less of a thing and even the main one at the end is a quick step section where you actually have to pay attention).

Green Hill is also pretty bad, you're just hold X. I don't mind a few boosty sections if the boost is part of the gameplay, but doing more than holding X and allowing a bit of change is fine. But that's just me and how I see it.

Actually Green Hill must be pretty damn long while Crisis City seems quite short in terms of physical length, yet Crisis City takes longer unless you're an insane speed runner (and even I've only gone down to 1:44, which is still less time than most Green Hill runs). It seems like the lengthy boosting sections are the problem that's adding the insane length of some levels. Even if Sonic himself was never slowed down, the decrease of the lengthier boosty sections in some levels makes them last a similar amount of time in a smaller space.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Semi-colon e

[JezMM]

Remembering that while Generations was in development, they made levels and assets for both Colors and Generations, that gives us a pretty decent number of levels together.

I think Sonic Team just needs more time. But I agree I'd prefer if the boost were more like in Colors for the sake of a more balanced pace.

Those were two different teams and two different discs though. The Colours team just jumped aboard the Generations' one after they were done to help finish the game.

I mean... I'm kind of hoping as physical storage gets bigger Sonic games might as well. They had real trouble fitting Unleashed onto a 360 disc, which is why there was such a huge amount of DLC (Savannah Citadel Night Act 4 was seen in promotional material before the game released, and Rooftop Run Night Act 2's icon is used in the Sound Test, proving they existed before the game was finished).

But, if they did have the space, we presumebly would have got all that extra content on-disc. Meanwhile with Generations, unlike Unleashed, they had all that extra experience behind them of fitting these massive levels onto one disc, so there was probably significantly less left on the cutting room floor.

[Kuzu]

This can be rectified if they gave you more to do in the levels beyond "Go Fast". I've only played Unleashed/Colors/Generations only one time, and have never turned back, yes I had fun with it, but when I played it, I felt like I was just doing the same thing over and over, and the game wouldn't let me try anything else.

[JezMM]

This can be rectified if they gave you more to do in the levels beyond "Go Fast". I've only played Unleashed/Colors/Generations only one time, and have never turned back, yes I had fun with it, but when I played it, I felt like I was just doing the same thing over and over, and the game wouldn't let me try anything else.

Did you play the extra acts in Unleashed or challenge stages in Generations? They all have much more varied pacing and level design than the actual levels themselves.

(Colours also had the Game Land stages but... they were pretty meh and actually way more repetitive and ungimmicky than the actual real levels were).

Edited October 4, 2012 by JezMM